Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 779336

Shown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:

 

Re: breach of ban extreme distress **triggers**

Posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 18:33:50

In reply to breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 14:15:33

the pigeon was real, it happened yesterday... but it's metaphorical and prophetic too. i am that bird. i tried so hard, even with damaged wings, to make it to a safe height only to have pain make me lose my ability to fly and i have hit the ground hard. From there the story has yet unfolded. Both i and the relationship are floundering, obviously damaged and in pain. Whether it can be salvaged and gotten help in time is up to my T..or me?..or both? Perhaps i need to accept that it has died in my hands.

SI is what is real... that pain is real... it makes real sense.. the hurt comes from a real place you can see and touch.

 

Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory

Posted by RealMe on August 28, 2007, at 21:28:19

In reply to breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 14:15:33

Oh Dory, this is all so sad, and I feel so badly for you. I would be a basket case if all this happened to me. The pigeon is sort of you it seems, and your therapist needs to understand you are injured and need care so you won't emotionally die. I hope you can explain to your therapist as you have here so that perhaps there will be some understanding.

((((Dory))))

RealMe
(Oz)

 

Re: breach of ban extreme distress **triggers** Dory

Posted by RealMe on August 28, 2007, at 21:33:15

In reply to Re: breach of ban extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 18:33:50

I didn't see your last post until I had written the prevous one. Take care.

Oz - RealMe

 

Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory

Posted by muffled on August 28, 2007, at 22:09:19

In reply to breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 14:15:33

Dory,
I'mm really sorry your in such a bad place right now.
But at least you reaching out.
You trying to do what you need to do to survive.
I wonder, is it possible to e-mail or fax your post to T ? Or bring in a printed copy? Its a good post, and might help him to understand where your comming from.
You sound a little dissociated, but that passes. Mebbe its for the best to be dissociated at this time. But the secret of being dissociated and not distressed by it, is to accept that its a coping mechanism and will pass too. If I am kinda trippy dissociated (and maybe you are?) then I prwetend like its just that I high, and its GOOD then to feel weird, and have stuff look weird...
Guess I kinda weird...
Anyhow, try and stay safe w/the SI stuff OK?
And we here at babble when you want to post or anything OK?
I sure hope you can work it out WTF is happening with your T. I hope mebbe you guys just had a miscommunication and can sort this out.
Take good care Dory.
Nice to see you here.
Muffled

 

Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory

Posted by widget on August 29, 2007, at 1:27:38

In reply to breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 14:15:33

oh, Dory, having to test the relationship is not an indicator of being a bad person. Its an indicator of being human. And, a fine human, too. The kindness and empathy you showed the pigeon was beautiful and very important to that pigeon. You should be honored. You have added to the good of the our complex, inter-related cosmos. It is not too effusive is say you have made the world a better place with such an action which always have a ripple effect, even if we cannot see it with our eyes. Believe. Be you. You are good.

 

Dory, hope you doing OK? (nm)

Posted by muffled on August 30, 2007, at 8:54:57

In reply to Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory, posted by widget on August 29, 2007, at 1:27:38

 

for everyone **SI triggers**

Posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 22:17:40

In reply to breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers**, posted by Dory on August 28, 2007, at 14:15:33

i'm too drained to write to everyone individually but each post meant something to me i promise.

my pdoc asked me what i was doing and i told him i had been drinking too much most every night and other things i shouldn't be doing, but i was unable to talk about it.. he knew though. He just asked me if it was "self abusive behaviours," and i said yes. i have a hard time using words about that stuff. i don't do what i used to do, i have found other ways.

i am wanting so badly to talk to my T about this... but i don't feel safe anymore. i don't feel it's ok. i want to "touch" the connection to reassure myself and it's not ok. i try so hard to be me there..to be authentic and not the projection i am for everyone else... i have to keep touching that connection to be sure i haven't done anything wrong... that by being myself i haven't screwed up.

i have been a mess since monday.

i need to call him.. but it's not ok

i need to tell him that it is *him* that i am upset about, but i can't.. i can't risk having him react in a negative way. THAT is one of my biggest problems...that i cannot process that very exact scenario.

i go over and over what i could say in a message... and i can't do it.

 

Re: for everyone **SI triggers** Dory

Posted by muffled on August 30, 2007, at 22:51:58

In reply to for everyone **SI triggers**, posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 22:17:40

> i'm too drained to write to everyone individually but each post meant something to me i promise.

**S'OK Dory, I'm that way too.
>
> my pdoc asked me what i was doing and i told him i had been drinking too much most every night and other things i shouldn't be doing, but i was unable to talk about it.. he knew though. He just asked me if it was "self abusive behaviours," and i said yes. i have a hard time using words about that stuff. i don't do what i used to do, i have found other ways.

*Well, at least p-doc is in the loop....
Other ways....more not so bad ways? Or worse ways?
Hope its better not so bad ways....
I am OK w/SI until other better coping mechanisms are discovered....but BE SAFE.
For me, drinking was a baddie, made me worse....

> i am wanting so badly to talk to my T about this... but i don't feel safe anymore. i don't feel it's ok. i want to "touch" the connection to reassure myself and it's not ok. i try so hard to be me there..to be authentic and not the projection i am for everyone else... i have to keep touching that connection to be sure i haven't done anything wrong... that by being myself i haven't screwed up.

**Awww Dory, hurts to read this. I'm so sorry you goto feel like this. I'm not exactly sure wassup w/your T??? Hope he comes round...

> i have been a mess since monday.

(((Dory)))

> i need to call him.. but it's not ok

*yeah, SO sucks not being able to call, hang in there...

> i need to tell him that it is *him* that i am upset about, but i can't.. i can't risk having him react in a negative way. THAT is one of my biggest problems...that i cannot process that very exact scenario.

**Dory...I dunno if your T is any good or not, you ahven't been going to him all that long. Its SO hard for us to REALLY understand sometimes whats going on, cuz we got triggers and stuff and we don't always understand what drives us. But T is supposed to journey down the road to understanding WITH us...
Which isn't to say they can BE with us all the time, and its hard when you lose connection so fast...
Can you find ways to 'hold' onto him w/o needing to phone etc? Ways been discussed on babble include voicemail, tapes, notes, actual items to hold, etc. Many of these things helped me.

> i go over and over what i could say in a message... and i can't do it.

*Dory, what you said here is so beautiful....cna you send him your post?
He either gonna understand...or not...but I guess its best to know one way or another, cuz if he not able to help you, then there WILL be someone who can, you just need to find them...
The theraputic relationship in of itself is so impoertant to healing...
Also, the very thing you fear from your T, is proly a great clue on what you might need to address and work on.
Best wishes to you Dory, hate to see you hurting, bur sure nice to see you posting.
Muffled

 

muffled, you online now? chat? (nm) muffled

Posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 23:02:31

In reply to Re: for everyone **SI triggers** Dory, posted by muffled on August 30, 2007, at 22:51:58

 

i left a message

Posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 23:41:23

In reply to muffled, you online now? chat? (nm) muffled, posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 23:02:31

i just left him and message and told him it was hard to call, but that i was upset... not because he hadn't called me, but because he changed the rules and i didn't know what was ok... how would i know what he would do in the future if he could just change the rules?

i said i knew he might not get the message because of the holiday weekend, and he works at a pain management center on Fridays. If he is there he does sometimes have the time to check in with his office. i have no way to know if he'll get the message before Tuesday.

i thought leaving a message would give me some relief but since i made the call my anxiety level is rising. i'm afraid of having made it worse. i am afraid he'll listen to the message and be even more irritated with me... or think i am so hopelessly anxious and helpless that he can't help me... i am afraid he will be disappointed in me. i am afraid he will feel like he needs to pull back, that maybe working more in a "supportive vs cognitive" role was not helpful for me.

i keep trying to focus on what he said when i left on Monday... he said he wasn't going anywhere and he wasn't going to ditch me.

i think i am going to sedate myself now...

 

Re: breach of self-ban widget

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 9:27:08

In reply to Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory, posted by widget on August 29, 2007, at 1:27:38

thank you widget. It's always a good thing to hear positive stuff like that. i wish it sunk in more, but if it did i wouldn't need therapy as much as i do right?

i am trying to focus on what he said at the end of session, about not leaving me... i know that is what he was wanting me to do anyway. i do feel bad about needing/wanting to test the solidness of the relationship... like i have done something wrong. Telling myself i haven't.. even reasoning out why it makes sense i would need to, or reasoning out good solid evidence as to why i don't need to, ie that he tells me he won't ditch me, none of that helps. i work myself into a tailspin...just like my poor pigeon. Instead of helping me it just seems to make me feel worse and worse.

 

Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **trigge RealMe

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 9:49:08

In reply to Re: breach of self-ban - extreme distress **triggers** Dory, posted by RealMe on August 28, 2007, at 21:28:19

> Oh Dory, this is all so sad, and I feel so badly for you. I would be a basket case if all this happened to me. The pigeon is sort of you it seems, and your therapist needs to understand you are injured and need care so you won't emotionally die. I hope you can explain to your therapist as you have here so that perhaps there will be some understanding.
>
> ((((Dory))))

it's ok... it matters to me that you understood the metaphot. it makes me feel hopeful that my T might too.

i *am* a basket case (*wry smile). i fell apart. No rules, no idea what to count on, no predictability... and trust me, for this particular T it surprises me that he did this quite this way. He really is a good T and i think he understood that it was not quite what he intended (*?). problem is i don't know that for sure either.

the "good" part is that it brought out something pretty powerful... the strength of my fear is more apparent to him and to me... it's more reflective of what really happens to me IRL when this is provoked. He can see it. Me knowing that makes me gag because it already feels painful so i can just imagine the road ahead.

the bad part.. well, that's obvious too.. i fell to the ground like a stone and did great damage to my spirit. i feel back into self-abuse and drinking heavily to self medicate. That was not the result he anticipated (or at least i am hoping).

thank you for caring enough to respond. It matters and i wanted you to know that.

 

Re: i left a message Dory

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 10:15:35

In reply to i left a message, posted by Dory on August 30, 2007, at 23:41:23

ok... i left him a rambling and pathetic message last night at about 2am my time... maybe earlier, i dunno.. it was late. i **know** he got it. By coincidence the receptionist called me just now and i asked if he was out for the day or what and she said he had already returned several of her messages to him so he had been checking his messages. (HA! makes me feel like i snooped and caught him..haha.)

OTOH, it ticks me off because he chose to leave me sitting it again for the weekend. Bas***d. The thing that does console me in an odd way is that i *know* that is what he is doing.. or at least i think i do. i am confused. He had said he would always return my call if i **asked** him to and i had asked him to.. ok now i am f'ked up.

see... i left him a message just now and asked him *not* to call me back. i didn't want to wonder anymore whether he would call. i wanted to find other things to do just like he said.. i made a little list of things like how he said he wasn't going anywhere and he wouldn't ditch me. i listened to previous phone messages. i still felt abandoned and like i had done something wrong before and so on, but i also felt like i was trying... i was trying to make a step..just like he had asked/hoped/expected.

So, i just called again... haha, f-k him, 3rd message in 12 hrs...d-mn straight, earn that $140/hr. ***This time i told him directly that i *knew* by accident that he had indeed checked his messages.*** i *know* he knows that i asked him to call... and he *knows* that he said that anytime i specifically asked him to call me he would.

i told him i was now even more confused. i need to know THAT rule hasn't changed too. i said i do not need or want to talk about any of the stuff from the previous message because i really want to stick to my list and try to make it through on my own. i know he'll be happy about that part. i told him i wanted him to call and i wanted him to stick to what he said about calling when i was definite about asking him to. (last weekend i had said something stupid and left it up to him) i told him i wanted him to tell me if he had changed this rule- which he had just literally and directly said on Monday. i told him that i thought it would be really damaging if he had indeed changed that rule... that i really wouldn't know what to expect from him or of him.

i am a little bit proud of myself for being so direct.. but it triggers my fear of making him angry so bad i want to throw up (and probably will). i will be devastated if he doesn't call now... even though i concretely know that if he is at the pain center today then he really, truly might not have time. i know not to expect calls after hours. It will leave me hanging in a bad way and i really hope he knows that and doesn't make that happen. So, at the end i told him i specifically want him to call me and tell me what the rule is.. gave my number. done.

somewhere out there surely i gathered enoug karma from helping poor howard (i named the pigeon). please tell me that little bit of compassion from me is enough to allow me a small portion of it too.

 

he called

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 10:58:12

In reply to Re: i left a message Dory, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 10:15:35

he did call and i could tell in his voice that he truly knew that i was hurting and that he knew it was important to call....i could tell he felt concern for me. It touches me in a way i can't describe. it makes me want to cry.

i told him that i had needed to know that rule about him returning my call when i specifically asked had not changed. He said he understood that and he recognised why and so he knew he needed to call to tell me that. i agreed that i did not want to talk about all the stuff from how this started and that i really meant it when i said i wanted to take steps on my own to handle it. That we had a lot to talk about in session, that it was too big to handle on the phone in a short call. He apologized for not calling sooner...after receiving my first message, it hadn't been that he had decided not to, it had been a lack of time as he is at the pain center today. That helped too.

he said he agreed that this showed him a lot about what happens to me... that it brought out in full colour just how painful and strong my fear is. He said it didn't matter if it made him happy or not but that it truly was a good thing that i recognised so much about my situation and that i made a list and wanted to stick with that plan.

i told him i knew that he had been clear that he was very open to being told that he screwed up. He had told me that when i told him about issues with my previous T. He said that sometimes he knew things were his fault.. so i *knew* that but couldn't help being afraid of saying it anyway. He said he understood that completely, and that he would never tell me not to feel that way... or that it was bad or wrong. He said he knew i had points, but we would talk about that in session.

i did feel a little bad because he said he had so little time and if he didn;t eat he was going to fall over. (((((T)))))

i also told him that all of this sucked and felt horrible and that telling him was my angry little present for him for the long weekend. i was going to be suffering and he would get to know that all weekend too. i know he probably doesn't think about me or other clients out of session, but i know he'll feel a little bad for me...and that feels like a little revenge. (ha!)

any help/support/ideas on ways to make it through the weekend would be appreciated. i have to work so that will be a partial distraction. i just don't want to hurt myself.. a few drinks are ok but i don't want to be falling down drunk somewhere.

please help me get through this...

 

Re: he called Dory

Posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 11:34:02

In reply to he called, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 10:58:12

It sounds like he wants to be there with you for the long term. And while his redefining the boundaries might hurt, relationships are living things, and sometimes things need to be shifted this way or that. It hurts like h*ll. But the intent is to protect the relationship and let it thrive.

My therapist told me once, and I wish I could remember the words, that the boundaries protected both of us, and most importantly the relationship. The way he said it hurt. But the fact that he cared enough about keeping the relationship vital was important to me too.

Maybe if you can think of this as not something he did for him, or against you, but something he did to protect the relationship between you and give it optimal conditions for growth, maybe that would help you see it not as abandonment, but as commitment in the deepest sense. Maybe if you can see the entity as a still new and tender thing, springing with roots and nourishment from each of you, but separate in that it has its own needs to thrive that may not be identical with the needs of either of you? Or think of things in terms of what's best for the relationship? Which you'd like to see grow long and sturdily.

I don't know...

 

Re: he called Dinah

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 11:45:00

In reply to Re: he called Dory, posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 11:34:02

i think you know more than you give yourself credit for Dinah (as usual? you are a big help and don't see it sometimes) (((dinah))) :o)

it does hurt... it sucks. i read "foreverwounded"'s post and i know that digestive tract/massive anxiety train too well. i am sure i'll lose a few pounds by the time i see him. i can't eat and everything seems to be going via the nearest exit. (sorry for being graphic)

i don't understand boundaries. i always thought boundaries were things like him not expressing too much of his own feelings, or even having too strong feelings for a client... or things like me not acting on feelings i might have, and knowing which feelings were ok, but not appropriate because of the nature of the relationship. i don't understand how this is boundaries... even though i am sure it is somehow.

i am not understanding a lot of this.

i do get what you are saying though... about the roots and all. i feel a little better knowing you understand and that is what i need... to not be alone.

thank you Dinah

much love and peace

> It sounds like he wants to be there with you for the long term. And while his redefining the boundaries might hurt, relationships are living things, and sometimes things need to be shifted this way or that. It hurts like h*ll. But the intent is to protect the relationship and let it thrive.
>
> My therapist told me once, and I wish I could remember the words, that the boundaries protected both of us, and most importantly the relationship. The way he said it hurt. But the fact that he cared enough about keeping the relationship vital was important to me too.
>
> Maybe if you can think of this as not something he did for him, or against you, but something he did to protect the relationship between you and give it optimal conditions for growth, maybe that would help you see it not as abandonment, but as commitment in the deepest sense. Maybe if you can see the entity as a still new and tender thing, springing with roots and nourishment from each of you, but separate in that it has its own needs to thrive that may not be identical with the needs of either of you? Or think of things in terms of what's best for the relationship? Which you'd like to see grow long and sturdily.
>
> I don't know...

 

Re: he called Dory

Posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 11:56:05

In reply to Re: he called Dinah, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 11:45:00

Maybe you can think of boundaries like a garden? If you let things grow too close to a plant, they don't have the room to get light, to get air, to get nutrients, and they wither and die.

The boundaries are just good maintenance to keep the tender seedling (the relationship) with enough space to grow. They're the garden fence, or the mulch around the plant to keep other plants from choking it or trees from overshadowing it. The other plants aren't bad, the tree isn't bad. There is nothing bad in the garden. You're just tending to the needs of the relationship.

Unfortunately, every relationship has its own needs, and those needs need to be negotiated over time between the participants.

(I can't remember where I learned this metaphor. It might been in premarital counseling classes.)

 

Re: he called Dinah

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 20:36:27

In reply to Re: he called Dory, posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 11:56:05

ok.. can you explain to me with my own situation? i don't understand how me asking to be able to "touch" the connection is crossing a boundary i guess.. honest. i want to be able to check and re-check that i haven't done anything wrong by being more authenically me. i am trying to make myself more vulnerable or allow him to meet *me*.. and i sometimes need to check that it's still ok. i can see why he would want me to try to build up more trust in him, but i don't understand how it's a boundary thing. i don't call all the time, not even after every appt... just every so often...

i've been seeing my pdoc for 10yrs and in the beginning i did that too.. i still do maybe once or twice a year..or less. Just when i feel that not only have i over exposed my real self, but somehow during that time i might have said or done something to upset him.

i think my T is concerned that this will increase as i let him get to know me.. and i can see how he might make that conclusion... but it wasn't the case with my pdoc and i don't think it will happen now. It's just an now and again thing.

is that a boundary thing? (i'm not being sarcastic, i am genuine in asking)

 

Re: he called Dory

Posted by obsidian on August 31, 2007, at 20:39:26

In reply to he called, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 10:58:12

well I am glad he called you, I would've hated to have been left hanging like that
it is so important to keep the connection when it feels like it's falling apart
sorry I can't write more...I'm in a bit of a hole
but I wanted to respond
be well dory
let's hear it for communication :-)
-obsid

 

Re: he called Dory

Posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 21:03:40

In reply to Re: he called Dinah, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 20:36:27

I don't know, Dory. I don't know the specifics of your situation.

I just am hearing that he's telling you what his limits are now, that they're different than where they were before, and that he is also saying that he's committed to the relationship. And it sounds as if you believe him when he says that.

Am I understanding that correctly?

I'm just suggesting a possible way to look at what he's doing other than as something that would necessarily be a cause to mistrust him. It may or may not fit. Whether it does or not, I know that it hurts even if his motivations are good.

As to phone calls, I always consider phone calls to be a boundary issue. They don't have to be a boundary *problem*, because it depends where a therapist's boundaries are set. But any contact outside the therapy hour are a potential boundary issue. Actually, I suppose a lot of stuff within the therapy hour involves boundary issues too. In fact most everything in most relationships strike me as boundary issues. It's just more clearly stated in therapy.

But that's me, and based on my therapist's point of view no doubt. You can disregard it entirely if it's no use to you.

 

Re: he called obsidian

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 23:20:13

In reply to Re: he called Dory, posted by obsidian on August 31, 2007, at 20:39:26

> well I am glad he called you, I would've hated to have been left hanging like that
> it is so important to keep the connection when it feels like it's falling apart
> sorry I can't write more...I'm in a bit of a hole
> but I wanted to respond
> be well dory
> let's hear it for communication :-)
> -obsid

thanks sid. sorry you're in a hole too. :o(

i don't know how to explain my need to "touch" my lifeline.. how can i help him understand?

 

Re: he called Dinah

Posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 23:31:44

In reply to Re: he called Dory, posted by Dinah on August 31, 2007, at 21:03:40


> I just am hearing that he's telling you what his limits are now, that they're different than where they were before, and that he is also saying that he's committed to the relationship. And it sounds as if you believe him when he says that.
>
> Am I understanding that correctly?

yes.. that is right. Better and more concisely worded too.
>
> I'm just suggesting a possible way to look at what he's doing other than as something that would necessarily be a cause to mistrust him.

this is the trick i guess. i'm having some trouble allowing for him to make a mistake.. sad eh? How can an act seem so innocent and well meaning and so unforgivable at the same time?

as he describes it "my antenna are up" when it comes to causes for mistrust.

>Whether it does or not, I know that it hurts even if his motivations are good.

it does. :o( it really really does.

> But that's me, and based on my therapist's point of view no doubt. You can disregard it entirely if it's no use to you.

it's of use.. it all is.. compare, contrast, re-examine. i value your input. i am mulling and trying to wrap my head around it all.

i should sleep tonight.. i really should.

 

Re: he called

Posted by antigua3 on September 1, 2007, at 12:38:59

In reply to Re: he called Dinah, posted by Dory on August 31, 2007, at 23:31:44

I'm sorry you have to go through this. I don't want to hijack your thread, so I'm going to start on another one below about my pdoc changing the rules without telling me and how that triggered me.
take care,
antigua

 

saturday down, two more to go

Posted by Dory on September 1, 2007, at 22:18:20

In reply to Re: he called, posted by antigua3 on September 1, 2007, at 12:38:59

i managed to get through today mainly by being at work. i have had a flare up and so i had to deal with a lot of pain, it was all i could do to stay at work. So my mind was on trying to balance those two things. As painful as it was physically it kept me busy mentally.

i tried to write a letter to my T, to talk about and process how i have been feeling but i just stared at the screen and felt bad. i feel like i can't be needy or that i haven't made any progress, or not enough to make him happy. i feel just bad about all of it. i re-read some of what i had been writing before i spoke to him on the phone.. but i can't reconnect to it now. i just feel empty, bad and wrong. i wanted to be me with him and now i feel it's wrong to be.

tonight i drank myself into a stupor for a few hours and now that it's wearing off i am just plain tired and in pain. i am heading to bed.


 

Re: saturday down, two more to go

Posted by muffled on September 2, 2007, at 8:15:47

In reply to saturday down, two more to go, posted by Dory on September 1, 2007, at 22:18:20

Hey Dory,
Thinking of ya.
Sorry younhad a flare up.
Hope you can feel a litttle better today.
M


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.