Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 766930

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Re: I hate being...(long, dense) DAisym

Posted by TherapyGirl on July 3, 2007, at 16:28:34

In reply to Re: I hate being...(long, dense) 10derHeart, posted by DAisym on July 3, 2007, at 15:56:42

Thanks for posting this, Daisy. It makes me feel less crazy.

 

Re: Your posts help and... Nathan_Arizona

Posted by 10derHeart on July 3, 2007, at 16:30:51

In reply to Re: Your posts help and..., posted by Nathan_Arizona on July 3, 2007, at 14:04:27

> Well, maybe it's just me (and I know this is NOT the point), but I do think you have a right to be mad. You are paying for his time and he is not giving it to you. I think you have the right to set some boundaries on the phone calls during session.

You're right. But perhaps I gave the impression this is a chronic thing. It's not; as I told Dinah, I think maybe 4-5 times over 2.5 years. Well, at least those I can remember. After we discuss and repair things, sometimes It does work so well I completely forget....which seems good. But when he reopens 'old issues' by doing this behavior again, that's probably a big part of the depth of my hurt.

> Now, having said that, anger is not a bad emotion and feeling it is not going to drive anyone away or make them leave you. It is simply an emotion that I think you have a right to feel (we all do).

Thanks, Nathan, I *always* need to be reminded of that - seriously. My head knows it, and I think maybe, my heart starts to make peace that it's really okay, acceptable to feel anger, say it, even lash out with meanness (though i try to always apologize, to my T. and others) and still people can forgive, understand, care about you, still want to be around you, and heck, even love you. But wow is it hard to remember!

> Personally, I find anger to be one of the most motivating of all the emotions and when used correctly, can induce very positive change.

That is an excellent point, and you made me remember times when this is exactly what happened - in and out of therapy.

> Usually it not the anger that sucks, it's the outcome when we express that anger - and that's the key - it doesn't have to be a negative outcome at all.

Yup. Nail on the head again (you are quite good at understanding all this, you know) My childhood was quite good and healthy, but my adulthood for about 20+ years has been full of unhealthy, one-sided, sometimes physically and/or emotionally abusive relationships with men. I know now each scarred me even though I swore for years none of the past mattered. hah. So a lot of my therapy work is recounting many of these stories (yuk) seeing them for what they were, seeing how I still believe much of the cr*p I was told....etc. And to get to why I thought of this - it's true, my T. helps rewrite a different response to anger, other than yelling, hitting, insults, coldness, withdrawing affection. But clearly I can still be terrified to express hurt to him, as I know what's 'supposed' to happen...

> Warning - standard psychobabble advice follows - I would simply talk to your T, tell him that the phone calls upset you, tell him why they upset you and be prepared to negotiate a solution with him that suits you both.

We will. We always do. Don't know if this is as negotiable as I'd wish, but some compromise must be possible, if we're both committed to the process.

> I have a good feeling that, handled correctly, this could be a really good thing.

It could. I really value this post, Nathan. You have a clear, positive and kind way that shows through, and I'm grateful you chose to respond.
You take care. - 10derHeart

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derHeart

Posted by sunnydays on July 3, 2007, at 17:00:23

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( muffled, posted by 10derHeart on July 3, 2007, at 14:15:28

I hope it's not true, but for my T, silence on email means:
a) it's the weekend, and he never checks it on the weekend

b) he's sick and not at work

c) he's on vacation, which he usually remembers to tell me about -- any chance your T is out because of the July 4th holiday and not checking his email?

I hope none of these is true, but in some ways they're better than imagining worse things. I know how easy it is to do that, though.

sunnydays

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derHeart

Posted by sunnydays on July 3, 2007, at 17:26:26

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( sunnydays, posted by 10derHeart on July 3, 2007, at 15:50:41

I do agree that your T absolutely should NOT take phone calls during your session. The phone has only rang two or three times when I've been in session - always towards the end. He always looks really upset and gets it and tells whoever it is he's busy and comes right back and apologizes.

I hope you can express your anger to your T. He should hear it. And remember, he's trainable :).

sunnydays

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( DAisym

Posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:33:48

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derHeart, posted by DAisym on July 2, 2007, at 1:36:22

>Is it the security of the connection when it is strong? Or is it the lack of opportunity to "fix" it, until some future scheduled time?

Great questions. It seems mostly it's the second one, especially this time. It feels like I absolutely cannot tolerate another hour of wondering, another day of not talking to him, without just falling apart. But then again, it's both, because when I feel frantic that we must fix this right now - I feel the security of the connection is severed.

And the crazy thing is, I *know* most of this - in some cases ALL of this is me creating a catastrophe when one doesn't exist. I project all kinds of things (this time, in my 2:30 am email I mentioned my thoughts he hates me and wants to get rid of me because this issue with the phone calls is "wrong" and "goes too far")all over him, and am convinced they must be true. For evidence, I use a day or two with an email unanswered, or a voice mail that doesn't sound right or give me exactly what I need. Those things "prove" he's angry, fed up, and about to give me some version of a termination speech. When I'm outside of the incident, it all sounds silly. When I'm inside that fear, it not only sounds completely possible, it becomes my reality.

> I would be upset too, if this happened to me. And while I do know that there are unusual circumstances that crop up, I also know that understanding this and feeling OK about it, are two different things.

No kidding. Thanks for understanding that so well.

>And cleary the end of the session must resonate deeply with you -- his "real" life calls and you are immediately done and forgotten. My own interpretation, and issues, I know but how could you not feel that way, knowing it was his son on the phone?

well, if it's your own interpretation and issues, we clearly have some of the same issues and interpretations...:-) Daisy, that's it in a nutshell, so much so I have to quote you when I see him later this week. That idea, crashing in on me unexpectedly (believe me, he's *never* done anything in the past that comes close to holding the cell in his hand with a family member on the other end [not on hold, even] while saying goodbye to me!)was surely the thing that triggered me so severely I could hardly sleep, eat, concentrate or stand 'being,' since that day. And this he recognizes as something possibly huge, so I've been asked to help him understand why this was so awful for me.....oh, this isn't good because there will be so many tears and if he doesn't get his part just right.....

> I know you have a strong relationship and can and will repair this. But it stinks in the meantime. I'm glad you've been busy to make the time go faster.

I know. It just feels so out of control, and then sometimes when the adult completely takes over, so damned ridiculous, it's hard to manage. Thank God for Babble and Babblers.

 

Update - T. replied to my email

Posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:36:45

In reply to I hate being angry with my T :-(, posted by 10derHeart on June 30, 2007, at 18:38:20

Yesterday. I feel safer now at least, like I'm not lost from him somehow (WHY does the mind always have to run to the extreme?! I KNOW CBT techniques for this, yet I can't seem to apply them) and I can release most of the crazy thinking about how my expressed anger over this will destroy our rapport and he will want to terminate me....

It says:

"myrealname,

I neither hate you, nor do I want to "get rid" of you. I like having you as a client ... it is hard work, but if it was easy we wouldn't be getting anywhere. I am very concerned that this situation has been so catastrophic for you. I know that the cell phone is an issue for you, but this incident seems to have caused the bottom to fall out. When you come in I would like you to help me understand why. - T."

-------------------------------------------------
I will see him tomorrow. I'm already anxious about that in another way, because one session is normally not enough....and no chance for another this week. It's all so confusing sometimes.

 

Re: Update - T. replied to my email 10derheart

Posted by sunnydays on July 4, 2007, at 13:28:56

In reply to Update - T. replied to my email, posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:36:45

(((10der)))

Sounds like he's going to be very prepared to listen to whatever you want to say to him tomorrow. At least he 'gets' that you're really upset, and my guess is he'll want to remedy his part in that. No T wants their clients to be more upset after having a session. I imagine by help him understand he just means to talk about it with him. I don't think you have to have any brilliant insights, although he'd probably welcome them. I bet he'll be willing to listen to any anger as well. And he's not going to leave you -- he said he likes you!

sunnydays

 

Re: Update - T. replied to my email 10derheart

Posted by TherapyGirl on July 4, 2007, at 13:40:06

In reply to Update - T. replied to my email, posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:36:45

I'm so glad he responded to you, 10der. And it sounds like he's in just the right place to hear what you have to say and try to fix it.

I have very positive feelings about your session tomorrow. Keep us posted, okay?

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derheart

Posted by DAisym on July 4, 2007, at 13:57:33

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( DAisym, posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:33:48

I'm glad he responded and wants to hear from you what is so upsetting, instead of "just" assuming he knows. The phone is one thing - interruptions and all that. But bringing his family into your session is a whole other level.

For me, it reminds me how "false" things are - not that the feelings aren't real, but that the relationship is so prescribed and restricted. I can "need" him - but I can't have him right when I need him - like you said.

The realities of the relationship work because of the magic of those walls. I walk through the door and things are suspended - I can open up to this whole other side of myself because the world can't intrude and judge it. He and I work in the cacoon of safety and when it is breached it hurts unbelievably bad. Again, for me, I feel so alone and kind of stupid to have invested so much of myself in someone who isn't really mine.

It makes me understand those people who don't want to know anything about their therapist. They keep the therapy space clean of all of that. Last summer I accidentally stumbled across my therapist's yellow page ad. I might have (probably did) post about it. It was a very cute picture of him and his wife, in the traditional "couple" pose and the ad talked about couples therapy, etc. I freaked out completely. They looked so happy and I wasn't doing couples therapy with him so this wasn't what he really wanted to do...it was awful. And then I saw the two of them doing their grocery shopping together like a week later. They didn't see me... It was so painful and I felt so silly but I just couldn't force myself to not be upset. It took weeks to get back to "my" issues - though what I ultimately learned about myself and my fears was valuable.

I know how scary this is and how double-sided. It will take a lot of talking and forced honesty. But it will be worth it. The relationship is worth it.

And I'm glad you have Babble too. :)

 

Re: Update - T. replied to my email 10derheart

Posted by canadagirl on July 4, 2007, at 20:07:16

In reply to Update - T. replied to my email, posted by 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 11:36:45

Sounds like he will be open to your feelings about the situation. I hope you can say what you need to say, you will likely feel much better if you get it all out. I hope it goes very well for you.

 

Thanks, I'll try my best (nm) canadagirl

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 0:41:45

In reply to Re: Update - T. replied to my email 10derheart, posted by canadagirl on July 4, 2007, at 20:07:16

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( Voce

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 1:03:34

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derHeart, posted by Voce on July 2, 2007, at 19:22:50

It's wonderful to see you here, too. Sorry I never got around to replying when you popped in. Too scattered, I guess. I smiled when you described your married life as you sounded so peaceful and happy!

Yeah, I will be glad to dissect why it bothers me so much. I am extremely direct with him about things he does and says in the room. I'd wager maybe 1/3 of our therapy time is spent on issues about 'our' relationship, which works, although I complain about me bringing those up too often. But, my T. is of the mind that, "The therapist *is* the therapy," and I don't think I could work with anyone who didn't understand how very true that is...

The phone...it's hard to explain. He doesn't do this often. But each of the few times has been terribly upsetting, with this being the worst. He really is wonderful and helps me so much, and is solid as a rock. He gives me his full attention, is always on time, never cancels, gives me about 65 minutes, will add an extra session nearly any time I want, and allows limited emails. Not so bad, eh?

But the phone.....this time, it was too much, too abrupt, too casual, too much like he expected me to be okay with ending the session before I was fully outside the door and so forth. I think I can make him see that easily. But then they'll be more to it, and there is, and that's scary to say out loud. I know you understand this stuff, the clashing of the 'real' life (I feel real in that sacred space, but I'm not real enough to have him WHEN I need him) with the therapy space....yuk. Always hard to talk about that wanting and needing to be more important to them than is possible.

Better go to bed now so I have enough energy to deal with this session. Hope you pop in again...miss you.

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derheart

Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2007, at 8:34:51

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( Voce, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 1:03:34

> I know you understand this stuff, the clashing of the 'real' life (I feel real in that sacred space, but I'm not real enough to have him WHEN I need him) with the therapy space....yuk. Always hard to talk about that wanting and needing to be more important to them than is possible.

That resonates so much with me. And it is so hard to talk about. :( I hope everything goes well (or well enough at least) today.

 

Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( Dinah

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 12:53:01

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( 10derheart, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2007, at 8:34:51

I've been back maybe an hour or so. I think I feel peaceful and okay. I think. It's weird, but I need time for it all to process before I'm ever sure how I *am* after a highly charged session.

It was hard to talk about, but not that hard. Practice makes it better, and I practice on this sort of stuff about our relationship an awful lot lately - good and bad. I just can't look at him after I say highly personal and honest things - too self-conscious to look. But then I miss out on any facial expressions, which can help when they are kind... Maybe I ought to work on the looking at him more thing? I think we both worked awfully hard and I wonder if he's as worn out as I am...? Poor T's with more clients all day...can't take a post therapy nap as we often can/do/must ;-)

I'll try to post more about the session later tonight.

 

But it still floors me

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 13:10:24

In reply to Re: I hate being angry with my T :-( Dinah, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 12:53:01

That my therapist - or most of them for that matter - unless they are very young, or only do short term work - actually need someone like me to teach them about the sacredness of the therapy space. This came up again today, as I was telling him the good part about the cell phone is that he recalls my first reaction maybe 1.5 years ago, and honors it by always leaving the room and closing the door immediately if he must talk on it. Back then he expressed wonder and surprise that I called it "sacred" (no doubt borrowed from a wise Babbler) and said he'd have to really give that some thought.

I am still floored by the need to re-explain it some, or remind him of the depth and significance of the sacredness, which suffers if it's violated by his "real" relationships with family intruding in any form. It just all seems so obvious. Especially for a fairly gifted, sensitive, good T. like this one who has done this work going on 32+ years.

My theory, after spending several years on Babble, is that plenty of his clients have felt the same way, but were too afraid to express it, just didn't know how or thought it was an "unacceptable" topic.

 

Re: But it still floors me 10derheart

Posted by sunnydays on July 5, 2007, at 14:49:20

In reply to But it still floors me, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 13:10:24

I think you're right 10der. My T has been a T for years and years and has told me I'm the first client who has ever been willing to talk this in depth about our relationship. Most people just never get to that point in their therapy. I think Babble is a self-selected group of some pretty strong amazing people. And you're one of them!!

sunnydays

 

thx, sunny... how sweet! you are, too :-) (nm) sunnydays

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 17:20:59

In reply to Re: But it still floors me 10derheart, posted by sunnydays on July 5, 2007, at 14:49:20

 

Re: But it still floors me 10derheart

Posted by TherapyGirl on July 5, 2007, at 17:21:52

In reply to But it still floors me, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 13:10:24

I completely agree with you, 10der. And this resonates with me for slightly different reasons:

<<I am still floored by the need to re-explain it some, or remind him of the depth and significance of the sacredness, which suffers if it's violated by his "real" relationships with family intruding in any form. It just all seems so obvious. Especially for a fairly gifted, sensitive, good T. like this one who has done this work going on 32+ years. >>

Maybe this is the way I need to explain to T why it was so upsetting for another client to knock on the door during my session. Do you mind if I borrow your words?

I work on looking at my T more, too, although it definitely doesn't come naturally. I try to make it a point to look at her when I say "loaded" things, though, so I can see if she's with me or to judge her reactions.

 

Re: But it still floors me TherapyGirl

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 17:42:07

In reply to Re: But it still floors me 10derheart, posted by TherapyGirl on July 5, 2007, at 17:21:52

> Maybe this is the way I need to explain to T why it was so upsetting for another client to knock on the door during my session. Do you mind if I borrow your words?

No, of course I don't mind, but thank you for asking. Anything that might help :-)

I keep trying to imagine my emotions in the moment - and the scar that would be left - if that happened to me. Yuk. I imagine my thing wouldn't be with that client - there's no accounting for other people's views or prioritizing of therapy in their lives...everyone just doesn't hold it in such a special place as some of us here do. But if I had to witness my T. *talk* to another client, during my session...{shudder} He knows those people need to not exist very often, and NEVER during our time.

I don't even like it when he says hello to the next person, or, "I'll be just a moment," or anything around his waiting room, so I try to exit fast to avoid that. A longer conversation would feel so....nasty. It's a violation, you know?

> I work on looking at my T more, too, although it definitely doesn't come naturally. I try to make it a point to look at her when I say "loaded" things, though, so I can see if she's with me or to judge her reactions.

well, then you're doing way better than me. I look a lot on the "light" stuff, and once in a great while when I ask a short, direct question, but when I tell big stuff, or am really talking from a younger place and we both know it....I am always looking down and see only a little shifting in my peripheral vision. I just feel so unsure and self-conscious :-( I've got to focus on that. I think I am losing the connection with him in session and not seeing some understanding and compassionate looks, things that I could recall to calm me later, from this constant floor-studying.

 

Re: But it still floors me

Posted by TherapyGirl on July 5, 2007, at 19:11:43

In reply to Re: But it still floors me TherapyGirl, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 17:42:07

> I don't even like it when he says hello to the next person, or, "I'll be just a moment," or anything around his waiting room, so I try to exit fast to avoid that. A longer conversation would feel so....nasty. It's a violation, you know?

Yes, unfortunately I *do* know. :-)
> well, then you're doing way better than me. I look a lot on the "light" stuff, and once in a great while when I ask a short, direct question, but when I tell big stuff, or am really talking from a younger place and we both know it....I am always looking down and see only a little shifting in my peripheral vision. I just feel so unsure and self-conscious :-( I've got to focus on that. I think I am losing the connection with him in session and not seeing some understanding and compassionate looks, things that I could recall to calm me later, from this constant floor-studying.
>
I just want to clarify here that I *try* to look at her when I say loaded things. At least half the time I fail. The half I manage to do it, I can't usually sustain eye contact.

Good Lord, it's hard, isn't it?

 

Re: But it still floors me TherapyGirl

Posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 22:20:31

In reply to Re: But it still floors me, posted by TherapyGirl on July 5, 2007, at 19:11:43

Yes, it is incredibly hard at times. Yet there we still go, mostly.

Guess mostly we keep deciding the benefits outweigh the pains, and the sense of 'needing therapy for therapy,' again and again? This relationship is so important to me right now, I imagine I'd tolerate a lot of discomfort to sustain it... {sigh}

 

Re: But it still floors me; it floors me, too 10derheart

Posted by Honore on July 6, 2007, at 9:43:25

In reply to But it still floors me, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 13:10:24

I've been thinking about what you said-- about the sacred space--and I think you're so right.

I find it dismaying, how many Ts think it's okay to take phone calls, or even to check the phone. No matter how great they are otherwise, this breaks through the space in a way that can have a lot of resonances, even if it's a subtle as glancing over, not to mention picking up.

Not just when it's other Ps; even, or esp. --but most importantly when it's family members. I can't understand how they can not understand that talking with a son or daughter or wife or husband disrupts the space more deeply-- because it reminds us that this other world of significant others is so immediate. It feels like a huge threat, which would overwhelm our rightful space. I think it's a terrible mistake-- in judgment-- or the depth of imagination of this space. Maybe they forget. Maybe they take it for granted. But you never can.

In the recent time with your T, 10der, it was particularly disruptive=terribly so-- because the ending is one of the most emotionally freighted times of the appointment. It's particularly hurtful and disruptive, when that moment is somehow cut off, and taken away by a phone call with a son. That would upset me a lot-- I don't even want to think how much.

Your reaction seemed really right to me-- and I'm glad you were able to work it out, and repair it. You're right, I'm pretty sure, that all Cs and Ps experience the same things-- but may be less aware of what or why, and less able to speak on their own behalf.

We all need to do that-- It can be hard to do it in a constructive way-- and to hold together despite the disruptions after the appointment-- I have to admire your ability to do that, despite being hurt and angry.

Honore

 

Re: But it still floors me; it floors me, too Honore

Posted by sunnydays on July 6, 2007, at 11:14:01

In reply to Re: But it still floors me; it floors me, too 10derheart, posted by Honore on July 6, 2007, at 9:43:25

Well said, Honore. I remember one time when my T couldn't think of the name of someone he wanted to refer me to (a holistic medicine person), he asked me if it was ok if he call home. I wasn't quite aware of why it would bother me, but I definitely kept saying, "No, it's ok, I really don't think I have the money to go to this person anyway." The one time I heard a previous T talk to his wife on the phone (at the very very beginning of the session) I hated it.

sunnydays

 

Re: But it still floors me 10derheart

Posted by Dinah on July 6, 2007, at 15:18:30

In reply to But it still floors me, posted by 10derheart on July 5, 2007, at 13:10:24

You are so right. I have talked to my therapist many times about how "this" (doing a rotating gesture to the space between us) is sacred in a very special way. And I really thinks that to some extent he gets it.

Yet when it comes to practicalities, he can't figure out why I'd mind his sharing his office with his nontherapist wife, or his glancing at the cell phone. Even now that he understands the latter (he still doesn't grasp the former), he still expressed surprise the other day that it was such a sensitive topic to so many Babblers. I guess he thought I was unique and odd.

It's true he does a lot of short term CBT and doesn't always work with the relationship that much. And he says many of his other clients actually take calls during therapy so think nothing of his checking his phone. But even then, where the client apparently doesn't feel it's a sacred space, surely it's a sign of respect for a client to give them your full attention for the time they are paying. To glance at your phone says so very much to the person you're talking to. Which is true in any relationship, not just therapeutic ones.

 

Re: But it still floors me Dinah

Posted by OzLand on July 6, 2007, at 22:06:09

In reply to Re: But it still floors me 10derheart, posted by Dinah on July 6, 2007, at 15:18:30

You are so right Dinah. I cannot imagine my analyst taking phone calls while we meet or even looking at his phone. I am not sure where his phone is come to think of it. On the other hand, I am one of those who look at the floor too when the topic is touchy or from the distant past and involves abuse stuff. When he cuts in before the end of the session, he wants me to look at him and talk to him as an adult. I feel like such an idiot, but I do it, and it helps to feel okay to walk out the door.


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