Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 698324

Shown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna*

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 27, 2006, at 22:10:10

I kept it a secret from people
How basely you dealt with me,
But I sailed far out on the ebbtide
And told the fish in the sea


On terra firma I'll let you flaunt
A still unblemished name,
But everywhere on the ocean sea
They know about your shame.

-Heinrich Heine (trans. W.W.Arndt)

**********************************

Wie schaendlich du gehandelt,
Ich hab es den Menschen verhehlet,
Und bin hinausgefahren aufs Meer,
Und hab es den Fischen erzaehlet.


Ich lass dir den guten Namen
Nur auf dem festen Lande;
Aber im ganzen Ozean
Weiss man von deiner Schande.


*********
As I watch myself tell it, I can see how I *spat* the last word out.

-Li

 

Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna* » Lindenblüte

Posted by muffled on October 27, 2006, at 23:48:13

In reply to Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna*, posted by Lindenblüte on October 27, 2006, at 22:10:10

I could say alot. But i'd have to bypass the auto asterisk...
sh*t.
So alls I can do is
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Li))))))))))))))))))))))))
F*cking right it sucks.
Its b*llshit.
Take care,
Muffled

 

Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna* » Lindenblüte

Posted by Daisym on October 28, 2006, at 0:24:17

In reply to Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna*, posted by Lindenblüte on October 27, 2006, at 22:10:10

There is a lot of pain in this post -- has it been a hard week?

I'm wondering what you need to tell the fishes and if you want/need to practice here? Saying the words to your therapist might be enough, but if you want to talk, I want to listen.

Take care of yourself.
Hugs,
Daisy

 

Dueling Heine -- untranslated here » Lindenblüte

Posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 1:10:33

In reply to Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna*, posted by Lindenblüte on October 27, 2006, at 22:10:10

Ich grolle nicht, und wenn das Herz auch bricht,
Ewig verlornes Lieb! ich grolle nicht.
Wie du auch strahlst in Diamantenpracht,
Es fällt kein Strahl in deines Herzens Nacht.

Das weiß ich längst. Ich sah dich ja im Traum,
und sah die Nacht in deines Herzens Raum,
Und sah die Schlang, die dir am Herzen frißt, -
Ich sah, mein Lieb, wie sehr du elend bist.

******************************************
I am too tired to find a good translation for everyone. Li, this one, somehow, always resonated for me greatly. I'm offering it to you, now, in hopes it brings you what it brought me -- although I'm not sure what that is, exactly. Maybe just the thought that mein Herz ist clar und rein? Keine Schlang Frisst an meinem Herz. Sobald, habe ich gewonnen.

The poem above, for those of you who don't read German, is very dark. A translation probably merits a trigger warning. It's important to me, though, and I'll find a translation to post in the morning. Sorry for any inconvenience this might cause.

 

I translate the sentiment **abuse triggers? maybe* » Racer

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 9:37:46

In reply to Dueling Heine -- untranslated here » Lindenblüte, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 1:10:33

Oh Racer- that one is very dark. Thank you for sharing. I don't believe it's included in my anthology "Songs of Love and Grief".

"Elend" = abject, miserable, woeful, wretched.

Yes. That's right. That's a very good descriptor of the state of affairs in the hearts of those people who would take advantage of my weakness only to further their insane agenda.

Let them prance around enjoying popularity and boasts, absorbing the admirations of casual acquaintences with such glee and greed. In the end though- they realize how miserable they really are- when they have sacrificed their own daughter and sister and failed to cultivate a true love. At the end of the day there is noone at home to love and admire them the way that they fancy the well-meaning public does. Let them wonder why their lives seem so empty and unfulfilled. Let them wonder what might have been a familty bonded in love rather than brainwashed loyalty- what is the price, what was the reward?

Linden blossom petal.

who thanks Racer for introducing her to this literature. thank you again.
> Ich grolle nicht, und wenn das Herz auch bricht,
> Ewig verlornes Lieb! ich grolle nicht.
> Wie du auch strahlst in Diamantenpracht,
> Es fällt kein Strahl in deines Herzens Nacht.
>
> Das weiß ich längst. Ich sah dich ja im Traum,
> und sah die Nacht in deines Herzens Raum,
> Und sah die Schlang, die dir am Herzen frißt, -
> Ich sah, mein Lieb, wie sehr du elend bist.
>
> ******************************************
> I am too tired to find a good translation for everyone. Li, this one, somehow, always resonated for me greatly. I'm offering it to you, now, in hopes it brings you what it brought me -- although I'm not sure what that is, exactly. Maybe just the thought that mein Herz ist clar und rein? Keine Schlang Frisst an meinem Herz. Sobald, habe ich gewonnen.
>
> The poem above, for those of you who don't read German, is very dark. A translation probably merits a trigger warning. It's important to me, though, and I'll find a translation to post in the morning. Sorry for any inconvenience this might cause.

 

Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wa » muffled

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 9:56:34

In reply to Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna* » Lindenblüte, posted by muffled on October 27, 2006, at 23:48:13

> I could say alot. But i'd have to bypass the auto asterisk...
> sh*t.
> So alls I can do is
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Li))))))))))))))))))))))))
> F*cking right it sucks.
> Its b*llshit.
> Take care,
> Muffled

Hi Muffled,
I'm still at a very strange place where feelings are not much a part of my experience. Only a little shadow here and there. Fleeting. Whenever I go examine more closely. I want to be in touch with it. I want to be at that place where I can have the anger you express above. I was able to talk about one of the betrayals a bit with my husband last night over dinner.

Husband said something off-hand to the effect that he respects my dad for having kept his end of the bargain. (It's concerning a very large expense-- my education) Dad had agreed to pay half of it, and he did (AFTER several very long tense confrontations with documents and calculations and written argument.

But what I had to explain to my husband was that this was a deal that I made with the devil. (Like Faust, only I wasn't so informed when giving my consent). I had to explain to my husband that the deal took place behind a closed and locked door, and that I was a minor, and I was explicitely told "you cannot ever tell your Mother, because if you do, she will get upset and we won't be able to take out a loan, and you won't be able to go to college." I believed him too. My mother didn't find out until it was too late and 25,000 dollars had been lost to my father's insanity, compounding interest and my naivete.

Am I angry? yes. at who? me, mostly. for ignoring the obvious. for ignoring my instinct that this arrangement was sinister. for being too lazy and secure that my father had my best interests in mind to actually examine the numbers.

But the truth is that I'm not really feeling the anger. I don't know how to feel that kind of anger when there's nothing to direct it towards. The man is "Elend" as Racer's Heine poem below describes. The loans have been moved to a more secure lender. The crisis is over. I have no more deals with the devil.

Instead of feeling vindicated, I feel guilty. Stupid. Naive. I should have told my mom sooner. Too many should-ofs.

 

Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wa » Daisym

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 10:03:25

In reply to Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna* » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on October 28, 2006, at 0:24:17

> There is a lot of pain in this post -- has it been a hard week?

Yes, I guess it has. I've had a lot of depression, and a lot of anxiety. I'm having a hard time feeling an emotional connection to my world- present or past.

>
> I'm wondering what you need to tell the fishes and if you want/need to practice here? Saying the words to your therapist might be enough, but if you want to talk, I want to listen.
>
> Take care of yourself.
> Hugs,
> Daisy

Thanks Daisy- that's so sweet of you. I have written some stuff in my posts to muffled and Racer. Basically, I'm not feeling so good, and I don't know where the feelings are coming from. Is it some effect of adjusting my meds? Is it just a generic reaction to stress? I know it my heart, though that there is something from my past that is being summoned to give witness. I just haven't been able to put a name, a face, a timestamp on this memory. Yeah, I'm scared.

-Li

 

It actually goes on -- and I tried to translate » Lindenblüte

Posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 15:54:40

In reply to I translate the sentiment **abuse triggers? maybe* » Racer, posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 9:37:46

Ja, bist du elend, und ich grolle nicht;
Mein Lieb, wir sollen beide elend sein!
Bis uns der Tod das kranke Herz bricht,
Mein Lieb, wir sollen beide elend sein!

Wohl seh ich Spott, der deinen Mund umschwebt,
Und seh dein Auge blitzen trotziglich,
Und seh den Stolz, der deinen Busen hebt,
Und elend bist du doch, elend wie ich.

Unsichtbar zuckt auch Schmerz um deinen Mund,
Verborgne Träne trübt des Auges Schein,
Der stolze Busen hegt geheime Wund,
Mein Lieb, wir sollen beide elend sein!

*********************************************

I did look for translations of both poems, for the non-German reader. No joy.

So, not in verse, and a lousy, non-idiomatic translation by me:

Ich grolle nicht, und wenn das Herz auch bricht,
Ewig verlornes Lieb! ich grolle nicht.
Wie du auch strahlst in Diamantenpracht,
Es fällt kein Strahl in deines Herzens Nacht.

Das weiß ich längst. Ich sah dich ja im Traum,
und sah die Nacht in deines Herzens Raum,
Und sah die Schlang, die dir am Herzen frißt, -
Ich sah, mein Lieb, wie sehr du elend bist.

I won't moan/whine/complain, and although my heart does break -- eternally absent Love! -- I won't [I really wish I knew a more precise word here] complain. Although you sparkle like diamonds, no ray brings light into your heart.

I've known this long. Oh, I saw you in dreams, and saw the darkness that reigns in your heart's domain, and saw the serpent that feasts on your heart -- I saw, my Love, how abjectly miserable you are.

*************

And the next is harder for me, mostly because I'm not as familiar with it. Here's my best try -- I'm sure Li can correct it:

Yes, you're miserable, and I don't complain; my Love, we should both be miserable! Until death breaks the sickness in our hearts, my Love, we should both be miserable.

I see scorn floating on your mouth, and see your eyes flash defiantly, and see the pride that heaves your breast -- and yet you are miserable, as miserable as I.

Pain also flickers around your mouth, unshed tears dull the shine of your eyes, your proud breast hides a secret wound -- my Love, we should both be miserable.

************************8

Just because I can't stand leaving this darkness on this board without a little understanding, let me tell you a tiny bit about the man who wrote these.

Heinrich Heine was born in Germany, about 1800, formed typically unpopular political opinions at school which led to Germany becoming a rather unhealthy place for him to remain. He settled in France, where he lived until his death in about 1859, I believe. He married a French woman, immortalized in his poetry as "Matilde," although that was not her name. And he died after suffering unimaginably for many years.

Based on reports of his symptoms, it's likely he had ALS -- Lou Gehrig's disease. He was progressively paralyzed, and eventually mostly blind -- although what I read left me with the impression the blindness was caused by paralysis of his eyelids: he couldn't open one at all.

At any rate, he was supported during his lifetime by the French government, because of his poetry. It wasn't a great deal of money, and he and his wife did not have other financial resources to count on. His stipend from the government would cease after his death. From reading his poems about her, the picture that comes clear is much more tender and loving than these two poems would suggest. "Matilde" was the daughter of a merchant, and Heine was concerned that her lack of formal education would leave her in a great deal of trouble after his death. In fact, his will said he left everything to his wife, on condition she remarry -- "so that at least one man will regret my death." Whistling in the dark, I think, after reading more of his work.

In the end, by the way, she made much more money from his poetry after his death. His worries were fairly unfounded. Although I don't know anything about whether or not she remarried. I hope she did, though.

OK. Yes, Heine is one of my favorite poets. And the poems about his wife break my heart every time.

Li? When you read "Hortense," let me know what you think, 'K?

 

Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » Racer

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 16:24:27

In reply to It actually goes on -- and I tried to translate » Lindenblüte, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 15:54:40

Oh it gets better,
hmm. yeah. there's a lot of darkness.

Racer, you did a good job translating. I had to look up a few words myself. This kind of stuff keeps my brain going. A poem a day is like a mental vitamin.

I find the suffering ones too heavy some days. Just like I find the lovey-dovey ones too fluffy somedays.

I thought the fish one was so appropriate somehow. The sea is so vast. So perilous. To be hated by the ocean is of much graaver consequence than to be hated by the land, I feel. So, there is some source of vindication there, should one interpret it like I do.

But it still hurts.

I wonder if any other Germanophiles will come out of the woodwork to comment? Jost comes to mind :)

-Li

 

Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » Lindenblüte

Posted by sunnydays on October 28, 2006, at 18:24:25

In reply to Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » Racer, posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 16:24:27

Well, I'm taking an advanced German course in college right now, and have been reading this thread with interest. I think those poems are absolutely gorgeous, but don't have much to add to what other people have said because I'm not really familiar with much German poetry.

sunnydays

 

Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » sunnydays

Posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 19:13:21

In reply to Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » Lindenblüte, posted by sunnydays on October 28, 2006, at 18:24:25

> because I'm not really familiar with much German poetry.
>
> sunnydays

If you want to be, I found Brentano charming and accessible. And not terribly dark...

 

Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » Racer

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 23:03:27

In reply to Re: It actually goes on -- and I tried to translat » sunnydays, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 19:13:21

That's great sunnydays.

Das ist ja toll, sonnige Tagen :)

I'm glad we kept you interested.

I'm not much of a literary mind either, but these little poems somehow grab me and suck me right in.

I don't know all the words, even though I consider myself about as fluent as an American will ever get, so don't feel bad.

Keep your chin up,
-Li

 

Thots****trigger**** » Lindenblüte

Posted by muffled on October 28, 2006, at 23:09:19

In reply to Re: Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wa » muffled, posted by Lindenblüte on October 28, 2006, at 9:56:34

> I'm still at a very strange place where feelings are not much a part of my experience. Only a little shadow here and there. Fleeting. Whenever I go examine more closely. I want to be in touch with it. I want to be at that place where I can have the anger you express above. I was able to talk about one of the betrayals a bit with my husband last night over dinner.

***Y'know, I think they will come when your ready.
They are too much for now proly.
You were very extreemly badly betrayed and hurt.
And it went on.
For me its a touch of emot...then I run away.
Touch, run away. Sort of getting used to it. A touch at a time.
>
> Husband said something off-hand to the effect that he respects my dad for having kept his end of the bargain. (It's concerning a very large expense-- my education) Dad had agreed to pay half of it, and he did (AFTER several very long tense confrontations with documents and calculations and written argument.

***:-(
>
> But what I had to explain to my husband was that this was a deal that I made with the devil. (Like Faust, only I wasn't so informed when giving my consent). I had to explain to my husband that the deal took place behind a closed and locked door, and that I was a minor, and I was explicitely told "you cannot ever tell your Mother, because if you do, she will get upset and we won't be able to take out a loan, and you won't be able to go to college." I believed him too. My mother didn't find out until it was too late and 25,000 dollars had been lost to my father's insanity, compounding interest and my naivete.

***Sigh. Dads are supposed to be Dads. Your 'father', it would seem, is a sick and twisted man.
Your Ma found out bout the loan, but not the other stuff though?
Doesn't she wonder, even a bit?
>
> Am I angry? yes. at who? me, mostly. for ignoring the obvious. for ignoring my instinct that this arrangement was sinister. for being too lazy and secure that my father had my best interests in mind to actually examine the numbers.

***Honey, he messed w/you from what I gather, for awhile. You never had a 'normal' father. How would you know? Noone taught you. It was your 'father', an ADULT for crying out loud. It was HIS responsibility in every way. A great many parents out there support their childrens further education if they are able to in some way, so why shouldn't your 'father'.
Besides, its mere money. The money means sh*t compared to other ways he betrayed you.
>
> But the truth is that I'm not really feeling the anger. I don't know how to feel that kind of anger when there's nothing to direct it towards. The man is "Elend" as Racer's Heine poem below describes. The loans have been moved to a more secure lender. The crisis is over. I have no more deals with the devil.

***What do you mean there is nowhere to direct your anger?
Anger is an emotion, telling you somethings wrong.
You were hurt. You buried it, but it didn't go away.
I'm not sure what you supposed to do next?
But somehow...somehow...I dunno, but, oh hell, mebbe someone knows?
>
> Instead of feeling vindicated, I feel guilty. Stupid. Naive. I should have told my mom sooner. Too many should-ofs.

***Li did the best she knew how at the time.
Did Li TRY to be bad?
Did Li consciously say I'm gonna be bad and hurt people?
Mebbe Li just was confused, lost, and just did the best she knew how.
Mebbe she was trying to protect her mom.
Keep the peace.
Just like she'd been taught all her life.
My take is admiration, for Li, for keeping on, keeping on. Not giving up. Trying to better herself.
Taking on so much on her own shoulders to protect others.
Mebbe I out to lunch. I often am. But the Li I see here on Babble, the Li that her husband loves, well, THAT Li is a good person. And thats what I see.
I think your an amazing person.

**There's this young street person I have seen around on the street and at the drop in place.
She breaks my heart.
Her eyes. Beautiful sweet...
tortured eyes.
Last week I saw her. Not looking good.
If she don't get help she not gonna last.
She was betrayed, badly. I dunno how, but I can see it in her eyes. The little girl who trusted, and got so badly hurt.
Its hard. Its so hard.
I dunno why this sh*t happens.
But I DO know, that ones who survive, are so much stronger, better, than they ever could have been w/o it.
They have a depth of knowledge and compassion that can only be known by those who have suffered.
And that being so, they have MUCH to offer the world.
So keep on Li.
I think your doing all the right things.
You cannot just barf, or disgorge, or cut your belly and spill, all the bad inside. Its too much.
Little bits at a time. IMO anyways.

**The thing w/ 'people' inside, well, they good, cuz they hold the bad stuff.
See, my insdie kid, the one that hurts, SHE hurts. NOT me. SHE was hurt. NOT me.
So I figger, I'll go into full scientist mode, have protection(toughie&nasty) at the ready, and THEN, maybe then, I will let myself feel what SHE (NOT I) feels.
And I can be sad for HER.
D'ya get what I'm getting at?

***And when all my 'people' are silent, not talking, hiding.
Thats when I am an empty shell. And I wonder who this shell is? And what my purpose is. Cuz I just a shell w/o my 'people'.....
Sigh.
Random thots in the hope that something strikes something for you sometime and can be useful.
(((((((((((((Li)))))))))))))))
Your gonna get there.
Take care
Muffled

 

Re: Thots****trigger****

Posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2006, at 23:47:02

In reply to Thots****trigger**** » Lindenblüte, posted by muffled on October 28, 2006, at 23:09:19

Li Muffled is right. Go a bit slower and when the time is right you will know. Love Phillipa

 

Thots. » muffled

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 29, 2006, at 0:06:05

In reply to Thots****trigger**** » Lindenblüte, posted by muffled on October 28, 2006, at 23:09:19

Muffled,
sometimes you know me better than I know myself. I guess you're right. It will come out when it comes out.

And yes, many parts of your post really touched me. you made me shed some tears. about 7, I think. 4 from the left eye, and 3 from the right. That's impressive, given that I don't have a lot of access to my feelings right now. Thank you muffled. I needed to let those go.

You are right. The deal with the devil was my last entanglement/obligation with my family. Since then, I have been free. Well, free to feel guilt and shame and wonder why I loyally drag my *ss back to the homestead for major holidays. Oh, it's nice to see 2 of them, but I'm en garde with the other 2.

That was the last of a series of ongoing betrayals. 2 nights ago, I had a dream. My dad was in it. I was playing violin, and my dad was organizing some old people at church to play chamber music. My dad and I used to play chamber music together. I remember the music vividly. Perhaps it was the only time that I could really do something that set me apart in my family, in my dad's eyes. I don't know if he valued ME though, or just thought it was convenient to have a violinist on call.

And you're right about trying to protect my mother. If she had attempted to intervene at the point of the deal-making, likely there would have been a show-down. Ugly. All Li's fault, at least in my mind. Perhaps I would not have been able to attend a prestigious university, and who knows what my life-course would have been like?

I'm really sad to admit that you are also correct about my dad being crazy. The very first time I ever described his behavior or manner to my first T, T promptly said, well- that's because he's bipolar. Oh, how vigorously I denied that. No, T-- you don't understand. My dad is eccentric. He's got a bad temper, but, you know, he's not crazy.

Well, I learned as I was working with my oldT that oldT could figure out someone's personality given VERY few descriptions on my part. It was eery- he was able to predict how different coworkers would react to certain situations, what my mom was like- really complex things, given very little information at all. I think it's one of his tremendous talents. So-- do I think that my dad's crazy. Yes. meets diagnostic criteria for a couple of things. maybe some bipolar stuff. Definitely intermittent explosive disorder. probably some personality disorder too. He's pretty f*cked up. but for a long time, that was the standard in my family. what he deemed "normal" "acceptable" etc was the law of the land. I was so brainwashed.

Muffled how do you find the strength to work with people who are in trouble? I think that's really admirable. I wish I could help like that too. I am in contact with street people in my neighborhood. I deny them any charity when they ask me for money. But, I can't help thinking sometimes-- what makes them different from me? well. that's a question for the ages.

-Li

 

((((lindenblute))))))))))

Posted by SatinDoll on October 29, 2006, at 4:47:34

In reply to Thots. » muffled, posted by Lindenblüte on October 29, 2006, at 0:06:05

I don't have any advice that hasn't already been given. Muffy's words are so awesome, she really gets it you know. But I just want to let you know I am following along your posts and I am thinking of you and hoping the best for you. But I am just at a lost for words.

 

Re: ((((lindenblute)))))))))) » SatinDoll

Posted by Lindenblüte on October 29, 2006, at 8:48:58

In reply to ((((lindenblute)))))))))), posted by SatinDoll on October 29, 2006, at 4:47:34

Thanks Satindoll,
I'm at a loss for words too.

*yawn*

stayed up too late last night.

now my brain hemispheres not connected anymore.

slosh. chomp.

-Li

 

Abusers- Lick my Heine! (Excellent bumper sticker) (nm)

Posted by tofuemmy on October 29, 2006, at 15:34:45

In reply to Abusers- Lick my Heine! ****trigger, if you wanna*, posted by Lindenblüte on October 27, 2006, at 22:10:10

 

Another translation

Posted by regis22 on November 6, 2006, at 0:22:19

In reply to Dueling Heine -- untranslated here » Lindenblüte, posted by Racer on October 28, 2006, at 1:10:33

I am actually singing a setting of "Ich grolle nicht" (from Robert Schumann's Dichterliebe) and have combined several different professional translations to make what I consider my favorite:

I bear no grudge, even though my heart is breaking,
eternally lost love! I bear no grudge.
However brightly you may gleam in the splendor of diamonds,
not one ray of that light falls into the darkness of your heart, I have long known it.
I bear no grudge, even though my heart is breaking.
I saw you, you know, in a dream,
and saw the darkness in your heart,
and saw the snake, which is feeding on your heart,
I saw, my love, how very wretched you are,
I bear no grudge.

What I love about this poem is that one can hardly read it aloud without being close to yelling by the end.

 

Vielen Dank- es freut mich sehr (nm) » regis22

Posted by Lindenblüte on November 6, 2006, at 21:43:16

In reply to Another translation, posted by regis22 on November 6, 2006, at 0:22:19


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