Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 670462

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I love my shrink (***trigger***)

Posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

I saw him today. I might not see him again for a month because I’m going on holiday and then he’s going on holiday. But it feels OK.

Yesterday I finished writing a book. He knew I was struggling to get it finished, so today when I told him it was done his face lit up. And then he asked me about it and I told him a few things and he was genuinely interested. (I don’t want to mention what it’s about here because it could potentially identify me…)

My last two sessions have been really good: not too intense but still very valuable. We’ve been communicating really well. There’s only one problem: it comes at the cost of my inner 18 year-old.

Today, right at the very end of the session, he asked how my 18 year-old is doing. And I burst into tears (I’ve never done that before). And he apologised for bringing it up right at the end, and said we could talk for another five or ten minutes. But I knew that ten minutes wouldn’t be enough for her, so I declined his offer.

The thing is… he made a series of mistakes. He forgot about my rape anniversary and then he forgot to come to my appointment, and then it transpired that he’d forgotten to tell me about having a conversation with my GP. And when I discovered that the last thing was yet another instance of forgetting, it didn’t seem worth discussing. What would be the point? He forgets things. It’s one of his weaknesses. He’s human.

But that was the point at which the 18 year-old gave up. She wants so much from him and she feels he won’t give her anything. She’s not even sure what she wants exactly. She just wants *him*. She has told him a few things she wants: she’s told him she wants to go for a walk with him and that she wants comfort from him. But he refuses or dismisses what she wants, and he doesn’t give her any space to talk about what she wants from him. And then he forgets things that are very important to her. So when he brought her in at the end of today’s session, she didn’t want to talk to him, but she was very distressed about it.

I’ve tried so hard to find ways to talk to him about the stuff she wants. I think the only thing I haven’t tried is writing it down and giving it to him to read, although if he can ignore it when I say it, he can ignore it if I write it down. But I’m so afraid. I’m terrified he’s going to reject her or humiliate her. I think the fear of humiliation is the worst part of it all. She’ll tell him she loves him and he’ll be disgusted or annoyed. And to disguise or alleviate his negative feelings he’ll laugh at her or tease her, not to be cruel but to enforce the boundaries and to emphasise the unacceptability of her feelings. And the very idea of it makes her want to die.

She doesn’t expect him to love her. She doesn’t wish for his love. She just wants to be allowed to love him. But I’m not entirely sure how she wants to be able to express it. She doesn’t want a sexual relationship with him, and she doesn’t want the kind of friendship that I want from him. I think she wants him as a father figure or a mentor or something like that, but she denies it. Mind you, she denies everything because she doesn’t want people (even me) to know how she feels about things that matter to her.

Sorry, this got very long. I do love my therapist, but it feels as if there are two of me loving him in two different ways. My 18 year-old is desperate, but she doesn’t want to talk. I don’t know how to help her. She’s so vulnerable.

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Tamar

Posted by Dinah on July 25, 2006, at 19:45:39

In reply to I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

Congratulations on finishing your book!!! What an accomplishment.

I know all too well what you're talking about. It's nice to have the better relationship, but it's painful for the part of you that feels set aside.

There's so much I could say on the topic that I'm afraid to say any of it. :(

Are you looking forward to your holiday? You'll be gone for a couple of weeks? I'm envious. We're skipping a vacation this year and I remember how much fun we had last year.

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***)

Posted by caraher on July 25, 2006, at 19:51:15

In reply to I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

Congratulations on finishing the book! What an accomplishment, especially with everything else that's going on!

I'm not sure what to say about your 18-year-old...

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***)

Posted by ElaineM on July 25, 2006, at 20:52:48

In reply to I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

Oh Tamar, I feel like I know the love your 18yr old is longing for. It's a terrible thing to want that badly -- so hard. I don't know what to tell you. I remember some of the difficulties you've been going through with him, and how his very rigid boundaries come at the expense of sharing. I wish I knew of a compromise.

Have you ever approached him, from a peer position, from your "friendship wanting" place, and asked him what he feels about allowing himself, as a T, to be cared for? Maybe you have already.

At least you still are able to feel some connection with him. I'm so glad that you've had some valuable sessions. I hope you find that a little encouraging. You sound very torn. And the fact that you would show your hurt with new tears, says alot about how painful and confusing, your 18yrolds hunger is.

I wonder if there's a way you could test out the subject without letting it all out at once? Get a sense if he would be completely dismissive, or receptive.

Congrats on your book. What a great accomplishment. It sounds like your T thought so too. Are you looking forward to a change of scene with your vacation coming?

hugs, EL

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Tamar

Posted by Daisym on July 26, 2006, at 0:50:26

In reply to I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

Could it be that your 18 year old wants to be "seen" and accepted completely? If feels, from your post, like she is seeking a protective space from your therapist...she wants carved out time in which to express her anguish. She wants a witness to her pain. And she wants to know that she is loveable and has permission to love without sacrificing some part of her as payment. (projection alert!) But really, as close to home as this hits for me, I think she needs you to understand and love her, but it starts with his love and approval.

It would be hard to not know what direction this need might run in. If it flairs in a sexual way, I'm sure he can handle himself. If it shyly peeks out, like today with the tears, you might need to ask him to coax her out.

And writing it all down, for me, is part of getting heard and seen. He might dismiss it (I doubt it) but you will know the story has been told and the feelings captured and released. This in and of itself will probably feel good.

I'm glad though that you connected, at least a little, before this break. You sound slightly better but still fragile.

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Dinah

Posted by Tamar on July 26, 2006, at 5:08:40

In reply to Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Tamar, posted by Dinah on July 25, 2006, at 19:45:39

> I know all too well what you're talking about. It's nice to have the better relationship, but it's painful for the part of you that feels set aside.

I’m glad you understand. It’s nice to know I’m not alone.

> There's so much I could say on the topic that I'm afraid to say any of it. :(

(((((Dinah)))))

> Are you looking forward to your holiday? You'll be gone for a couple of weeks? I'm envious. We're skipping a vacation this year and I remember how much fun we had last year.

I haven’t thought much about the holiday, even though I think we’re leaving on Saturday. I have so much to do before I go that I can’t even imagine going. But when I get there I will not think about work *at all*. I will lie on the sand beside the palm trees, enjoying the warm sunshine and listening to the gentle faraway sound of waves splashing, birds calling, and children fighting. Ahhh… Yes, it’ll be good. Just a week, but every minute will count!

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » caraher

Posted by Tamar on July 26, 2006, at 5:18:55

In reply to Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by caraher on July 25, 2006, at 19:51:15

> Congratulations on finishing the book! What an accomplishment, especially with everything else that's going on!

Thanks! Well, it’s taken me a very long time, but the publisher is pleased that I’ve finally finished. I’m not so sure. I’m terrified that people will read it and think it’s awful…

> I'm not sure what to say about your 18-year-old...

Can I ask you a question? You don’t have to answer…
I just wondered whether you’re not sure what to say because you find my talk of an inner 18 year-old a bit weird, or whether it’s because you don’t identify with her problems, or maybe something else?

I just wondered if it’s the first thing, because I know my husband feels uneasy about the idea. It’s as if he doesn’t know quite what I mean by it and doesn’t want to encourage me to think weird thoughts. I can certainly understand why he feels that way and I’m fine with that. It isn’t part of his experience and it doesn’t make sense to him, and that’s fine.

Anyway, I was vaguely curious about whether you’re coming from a similar place. Of course, you don’t have to answer my questions, and any answer you might choose to give will be absolutely OK.

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***)

Posted by caraher on July 26, 2006, at 8:39:14

In reply to Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » caraher, posted by Tamar on July 26, 2006, at 5:18:55

> Thanks! Well, it’s taken me a very long time, but the publisher is pleased that I’ve finally finished. I’m not so sure. I’m terrified that people will read it and think it’s awful…

Not likely!

> I just wondered whether you’re not sure what to say because you find my talk of an inner 18 year-old a bit weird, or whether it’s because you don’t identify with her problems, or maybe something else?
>
> I just wondered if it’s the first thing, because I know my husband feels uneasy about the idea. It’s as if he doesn’t know quite what I mean by it and doesn’t want to encourage me to think weird thoughts. I can certainly understand why he feels that way and I’m fine with that. It isn’t part of his experience and it doesn’t make sense to him, and that’s fine.
>
> Anyway, I was vaguely curious about whether you’re coming from a similar place. Of course, you don’t have to answer my questions, and any answer you might choose to give will be absolutely OK.

In some ways, I think I may have *only* an inner 18-year-old. ;) It may be simply a matter of what metaphors "work" best in describing our inner experiences.

The way you write about getting along fairly well in therapy, then becoming upset when the 18-year-old gets brought up, is different from my own experience. The closest I get to that is if I think about myself when I was ten or younger, in that this is the only "other self" I relate to. That self is the self I feel I *should* be in many ways, the self I feel I've disappointed or betrayed when I feel I've accomplished too little. But he doesn't feel like a living "other self." I have many of his values and beliefs, but he was far more confident, optimistic and resilient than I am. I feel like he's dead, living only as a memory without any ongoing emotions.

So I guess it's mostly that I don't understand how you see the relationship between "you" and the 18-year-old. I tend to think she's a portion of your inner life you tend not to ordinarily reveal, perhaps because that part is especially vulnerable. She's the part that needs a loving father, the support you perhaps didn't get when you were actually an adolescent. I can understand the references to her on that level. But sometimes your talk about her makes her sound more separate from "you" than anything I've experienced myself.

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » ElaineM

Posted by Tamar on July 26, 2006, at 18:55:20

In reply to Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by ElaineM on July 25, 2006, at 20:52:48

> Oh Tamar, I feel like I know the love your 18yr old is longing for. It's a terrible thing to want that badly -- so hard. I don't know what to tell you. I remember some of the difficulties you've been going through with him, and how his very rigid boundaries come at the expense of sharing. I wish I knew of a compromise.

Thanks Elaine. It feels good to be understood.

> Have you ever approached him, from a peer position, from your "friendship wanting" place, and asked him what he feels about allowing himself, as a T, to be cared for? Maybe you have already.

I haven’t tried that. It’s a very interesting idea. I wonder if he’d answer me. I’ll try to find a way to ask him that.

> At least you still are able to feel some connection with him. I'm so glad that you've had some valuable sessions. I hope you find that a little encouraging. You sound very torn. And the fact that you would show your hurt with new tears, says alot about how painful and confusing, your 18yrolds hunger is.

I think the word hunger is a very appropriate one. It’s very physical, isn’t it? The need for love is a whole body experience, even if the expression of love isn’t a physical experience. (I don’t know if I’m making any sense.) I feel as if I’m asking him for nourishment but I’m asking for the wrong thing:

Me: I’d really like some apple pie.
T: I can give you rice.
Me: Rice would be OK, but afterwards what I want most is apple pie.
T: I don’t think it’s helpful for you to eat apple pie. But you can have some rice.
Me: What about a potato?
T: I don’t cook potatoes. But I have made a big bowl of rice. Here’s a spoon.
Me: Thanks for the rice. Can we talk about why I want apple pie?
T: Shut up and eat your rice.

> I wonder if there's a way you could test out the subject without letting it all out at once? Get a sense if he would be completely dismissive, or receptive.

So far my attempts at testing him have met with no response at all. He just deflects me. I wish I could get my adult self in there to leap to the 18 year-old’s defence when that happens…

> Congrats on your book. What a great accomplishment. It sounds like your T thought so too. Are you looking forward to a change of scene with your vacation coming?

Thanks! Yeah, I’m definitely ready for some time off. I’m worn out. I keep pretending to be competent at work but it’s really hard to keep the show going!


 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Tamar

Posted by ElaineM on July 27, 2006, at 10:22:12

In reply to Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » ElaineM, posted by Tamar on July 26, 2006, at 18:55:20

>I feel as if I’m asking him for nourishment but I’m asking for the wrong thing:
>
> Me: I’d really like some apple pie.
> T: I can give you rice.
> Me: Rice would be OK, but afterwards what I want most is apple pie.
> T: I don’t think it’s helpful for you to eat apple pie. But you can have some rice.
> Me: What about a potato?
> T: I don’t cook potatoes. But I have made a big bowl of rice. Here’s a spoon.
> Me: Thanks for the rice. Can we talk about why I want apple pie?
> T: Shut up and eat your rice.

Tamar, this part made me laugh -- it's so perfect. Though I'm not making light of what you're expressing -- it's just a great description. Makes me want to say, "I've had my fill of rice right now. If you give me any more I'll be sick", or "I worked hard, I've eaten your rice before, it's great, it's hit the spot before, but I feel like I deserve some apple pie for dessert." And then maybe I'd also throw in, "Whoa! Why are you so against apple pie. You wouldn't have to have some yourself, but why are you so hesitant to talk about it. It makes me wonder what underlying issues YOU have with apple pie"............Anyways, now that I've run your analogy into the ground. I know it would sound weird but do you think you'd ever read that little skit to him, saying this is what the 18yrold feels -- it's just so accurate, and innocent, and honest. Maybe he wouldn't be so quick to deflect something that sounded so completely non-treatening, yet still expressed what you want to get across.

>>> So far my attempts at testing him have met with no response at all. He just deflects me. I wish I could get my adult self in there to leap to the 18 year-old’s defence when that happens…

Yes, you're situation does sound as though it gets really frustrating. I remember the whole "game playing" exchange that you both talked about awhile ago. (that was you right?) And then when he brings up the 18yr. at the end of a session...I just wonder if he realizes how toying his actions might seem -- how he seems to initiate and then withdraw completely (his evasiveness) and not let you continue and get responses to the subject he seems to bring up. He must be unaware of doing it, or at least unaware of how it only makes the frustration and the needing of an answer even bigger. I kinda blathered on here, but maybe you could ask him what he thinks of this idea.

I just don't know if he'll ever not give the circular T-talk. I don't really know what to tell you. Do you see him again before your holiday?

 

Re: I love my shrink (***trigger***) » Tamar

Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2006, at 15:38:27

In reply to I love my shrink (***trigger***), posted by Tamar on July 25, 2006, at 19:11:32

Ok, I think I've sorted out my thoughts.

My gut reaction is a sort of shriek that no part of you should ever be put aside in order for you to be acceptable for anyone. That that part of you is valuable and deserves respect and love.

But my brain reaction is that your therapist just didn't handle the feelings that part of you brought to therapy, not through any fault of his own but just due to the training bias in your area. And that given that, it might be wise to protect that part of you from the pain.

Is there some compromise available? In addition of course to being lovingly open to your eighteen year old, sympathizing with her pain, and allowing her freedom to express herself with you.

Could you convince her from a totally pragmatic angle that there are some approaches he responds better to than others, and she really deserves the chance to express herself, but maybe, for totally pragmatic reasons, she should practice ways that will elicit the best responses for her purposes?

While all the time admitting that it's just not fair that life should be this way, and you wish it didn't have to be so. But that admitting that it *is* so doesn't make it so, or show approval of it being so. It just recognizes the facts and in recognizing the facts, chooses the best approach to getting what she wants.


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