Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 662028

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Re: AND TOFU GIRL CAN STUFF THAT TOFU UP

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:50:26

In reply to AND TOFU GIRL CAN STUFF THAT TOFU UP, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:47:57

maybe you could go blow a psycho c*ck too and maybe he will chop you up in little pieces and eat you for his meals.

 

Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm)

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

 

Please be civil happyflower

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:15:30

In reply to Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm), posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

I understand that you may feel like your original posts were misunderstood, and you may feel hurt by that. But even if you're feeling hurt, Dr. Bob still asks that you follow the civility guidelines.

Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or use language that could offend others.

If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.

Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.

Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob

 

Happyflower?

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:23:30

In reply to Re: Excuse me? F*CK OFF!!! TofuEmmy, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:40:55

If I remember correctly, you have some experience with your mom that might make this discussion a bit triggering for you?

Do you think you can get in touch with your therapist if you need to?

Nobody is angry with you. At least I'm not. I understand that you're telling us what you read in your textbook, and that you have no reason to disbelieve that. I only backed out of the conversation because I have no degrees or credentials and couldn't see much hope of pressing my point of view against the weight of scholarship.

Deep breaths?

Dinah, acting as poster and friend

 

Re: Happyflower?

Posted by llrrrpp on June 28, 2006, at 21:38:49

In reply to Happyflower?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:23:30

((((Happyflower))))

I'm sorry that you are angry and hurt by this thread.

Please take care of yourself. Even though you're angry, you're still a good person. I hope you don't get blocked, because I'll miss you.

(((((Happyflower)))))

 

HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp

Posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

In reply to Re: Happyflower?, posted by llrrrpp on June 28, 2006, at 21:38:49

I have to say this because you seem so upset and I don't want it to be so!!...

Please understand that the personality disorder "label" is a controversial one! a lot of people don't realize how much so! I would guess that that's what people are reacting to as opposed to you personally.
It is difficult to separate the "humanity" from the symptoms...if that at all makes sense?? so consequently the personality disorder diagnoses are difficult to hear sometimes......
not because the symptoms aren't true, but because of the stigma that is felt to go along with them - it is a truly complicated issue which I do not hope to clarify here

In my experience (and I've got some interesting experiences ;-) this issue is BIG. I wish you didn't have to feel attacked! ...some really basic questions get raised when we talk about PD's - ie, nature vs nurture, intentionality vs. mercy of the fates, etc

I'm sorry :-( I hope you come back

 

........continued

Posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:32:34

In reply to HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp, posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

unfortunately and fortunately we quite often defy efforts to be put into discrete categories..there is so much overlap between "normal" and "abnormal" that the line between the two doesn't seem to exist....

 

Re: Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE)

Posted by verne on June 28, 2006, at 22:50:54

In reply to Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm), posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

I agree with HappyFlower.

verne

 

textbooks

Posted by Adrift on June 28, 2006, at 23:39:25

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

Must add this, textbooks often are a form of misinformation and they are also a few years out of date by the time they are printed.

 

Re: HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!!

Posted by Jost on June 28, 2006, at 23:58:29

In reply to HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp, posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

> I have to say this because you seem so upset and I don't want it to be so!!...
>
> Please understand that the personality disorder "label" is a controversial one! a lot of people don't realize how much so! I would guess that that's what people are reacting to as opposed to you personally.
> It is difficult to separate the "humanity" from the symptoms...if that at all makes sense?? so consequently the personality disorder diagnoses are difficult to hear sometimes......
> not because the symptoms aren't true, but because of the stigma that is felt to go along with them - it is a truly complicated issue which I do not hope to clarify here
>
>

This is so true. There's tremendous controversy about PDs, not only theoretically, but in individual cases. When you read the literature more widely, happyflower, you'll realize that these categories are used idiosyncratically by the Ts and Pdocs who do use them-- Moreover, many Ts don't find them useful at all. There's a lot of writing about the way these categories, esp, Borderline PD, or Narcissistic PD, or Anti-social PD, can tend to be used when a T is uncomfortable with a P, or doesn't know how to help, and finds it disturbing.

I wanted to write about this because these names or supposed dxs can be destructive and undermining to people who are being diagnosed-- and if there are those lurking who feel hurt or condemned by having been labeled in that way, I'd want to emphasize that these aren't stable, or even terribly meaningful names.

The reason textbooks talk about them, and cite studies and so forth is because they're giving students a language, and explaining the terrain-- and doing it as if it's literally true, instead of more-- a rather imprecise--although perhaps not entirely wrong-- and subjective way of trying to contain things that are hard to contain--trying to give shape to shifting and not-well-understood ways of being.

No one truly knows if anyone's difficulties can be overcome, because that depends on human aspirations, strengths, and growth, and also the vicissitudes of who anyone becomes involved with, and how life treats them, over time. None of which can be known, or diagnosed or measured.

It's great that happyflower is learning a lot about a complex field, and it's understandable that she is struck by the intrigue and explanatory power of these systems. The limitations of this explanatory power, and the darker side of their use and meaning hasn't become visible yet to her, it seems.

I'm sorry she's been hurt by the discussion. I'm sure she didn't mean any harm by it. I'm also sorry that Dinah and others have been hurt.

 

It might help to remember... (tangent)

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 0:17:55

In reply to Re: HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!!, posted by Jost on June 28, 2006, at 23:58:29

...that expressing a different opinion does not necessarily equal an attack. And that sharing what one knows about a topic, even when it contradicts someone else, also does not have to equal an attack.

I'm not saying that differences of opinion are never used as weapons. Unfortunately, that happens. I'm just saying that the two concepts are not interdependent.

gg

 

How come I can't babblemail HF???

Posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:10:24

In reply to It might help to remember... (tangent), posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 0:17:55

Can she babblemail me?
Happyflower, can I somehow get my e-mail to you?
Take care.
Muffy

 

I replied on Admin (link included) muffled

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:15:26

In reply to How come I can't babblemail HF???, posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:10:24

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060622/msgs/662476.html

gg

 

(((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) TofuEmmy

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:17:31

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

I'm glad you spoke up. I am still in awe of the work that you do. I know it's very difficult. Those you work with are blessed to be able to experience your compassion.

Take care,

gg

 

Re: (((((((((Tofuemmy)))))))))Ya me too (nm)

Posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:29:10

In reply to (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) TofuEmmy, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:17:31

 

Re: (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) gardenergirl

Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 5:43:40

In reply to (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) TofuEmmy, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:17:31

Me too.

 

Pernicious button (nm)

Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 5:44:07

In reply to Re: (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 5:43:40

 

(((((((((HappyFlower))))))))) (nm)

Posted by verne on June 29, 2006, at 7:45:01

In reply to (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) TofuEmmy, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:17:31

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal Dinah

Posted by Racer on June 29, 2006, at 12:50:11

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 10:17:28

> OCD is more intrusive thoughts and impulses to do rituals to ward off feared consequences, and is classified as an anxiety disorder.
>
> OCPD is usually described in terms of perfectionism and a lack of flexibility. It's considered a personality or characterological disorder. I think that's an overly negative view, personally. I think it would be more compassionate to view OCPD as a way to control anxiety. A person might feel if they could just control everything around them and make sure it's done "right" then nothing bad will happen. But of course they can't control everything, and the resulting anxiety sometimes comes out as anger. I have a fair amount of sympathy for it, myself.
>

Yeah, I'd agree with all of that. Mind you, I'm no expert, and haven't read any text book explanations of it all -- except the textbook from my general psych class -- but I do have close continuing contact with someone with OCPD, and I have nearly enough traits for the diagnosis to be made in my case, too. (Although in my case, they tend to be state related -- when I'm thin, I'm very OCPD, bordering closely to the OCD range itself.)

What I'll say is that in the case of the person I'm thinking of with OCPD, it is fear -- outright fear -- that tends to bring on the worst symptoms. There are always background behaviors related to it, but the strongest symptomology comes out when she's in a situation that involves uncertainty. THEN she wigs out totally.

And I have a great deal of sympathy for her. Except that, under the New Math, my sympathy is tempered by how much of it she takes out on me...

:-D

 

Tough job--emmy

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 12:57:59

In reply to (((((((((Tofuemmy))))))))) TofuEmmy, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:17:31

Emmsky,
I know I could not work in the prison system. Just not for me. I'm a wimp. I don't know how you do it day in and day out.

gg

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal Racer

Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2006, at 13:01:39

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal Dinah, posted by Racer on June 29, 2006, at 12:50:11

My experience is that if someone with OCPD decides that it's the right thing to change, they can turn their conscientousness and strength of will to do exactly that. Not perfectly of course. No one is perfect.

I wish it were a more effective tool against anxiety though. It doesn't seem to work as well as one might wish.

 

Re: Tough job--emmy gardenergirl

Posted by tofuemmy on June 29, 2006, at 15:14:08

In reply to Tough job--emmy, posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 12:57:59

Thanks GG. There never is a dull moment!

Em

 

Re: ((((((((((emmy))))))))))

Posted by All Done on June 29, 2006, at 16:10:12

In reply to Re: Tough job--emmy gardenergirl, posted by tofuemmy on June 29, 2006, at 15:14:08

Hugs for lots of reasons.

Your friend,
Lala

 

Miss Tofu tofuemmy

Posted by Racer on June 30, 2006, at 10:33:26

In reply to Re: Tough job--emmy gardenergirl, posted by tofuemmy on June 29, 2006, at 15:14:08

You know I don't hug, but I want you to know that if I did, I'd offer one up for you now. I'm sorry you read things that I imagine you found distressing, and I, too, greatly admire your work.

 

Wisdom vs. knowledge

Posted by madeline on June 30, 2006, at 16:17:57

In reply to Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2006, at 22:05:27

I realize that this has been a contentious thread for some, but as someone who has spent countless hours learning, studying and earning degrees, I think I may have a little bit more to add.

Literally, I have spent the past 15 years of my life learning and teaching others about the human body. I "know" a lot about it.

In fact, I know enough to know that we don't know anything about it.

What we can say for sure about our minds and bodies probably wouldn't fill a thimble.

As a student it was my job to master "facts" and boy did I think I was SMART.

As a scientist it is now my job NOT to believe them and I have never felt more humbled and stupid.

You can never know enough and what you think you know is probably wrong.

It took me years to learn that and I think that is the essence of wisdom.

I don't know who this guy is, but this quote resonated with me and I think is very on point

Martin Fischer:
Knowledge is a process of piling up facts; wisdom lies in their simplification.

Maddie


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