Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 662028

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Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower

Posted by cloudydaze on June 28, 2006, at 15:03:17

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

> The thing about depression, is that it can be reaccuring due to many things, but it also can be healed and not ever come back. It can also go away on its own without any therapy or meds.
> In the case of personality disorders, you will always have it, you can help with the symptoms, but it will always be there.

- according to my psychaitrist, I have bipolar caused by a chemical inbalance that will never go away on it's own. According to him, I will never be "cured".

You want to know what I think? I think psychology is great - I majored in psych for awhile (it kinda helped me to figure myself out) - but i don't think it's perfect.

There's no reasonable explanation for how I've been able to cope without meds. I still get depressed, but only because I have feelings. I am human. I go through rough spots - i'm going through one now. But knowing I'm going to make it through the pain makes it all okay. I haven't been "cured" or "fixed", I've just learned to cope a little better.

I believe meds can help, but only you can heal yourself, IMO. "Healing" to me doesn't mean the illness is gone, it just means you are stronger than it.

There are some things that can't be explained. Science and Medicine have come a long way, but some things are still a mystery.

 

Re: OCD vs OCPD B2chica

Posted by littleone on June 28, 2006, at 15:41:30

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 9:45:48

> so help me out with the OCD vs OCD pd? what would be the difference between the two? i guess i would think of someone not able to function outside the home with OCD, but like my dad with ocd PD, that he can function but is obsessively checking things 8/9 times. is that kinda it??

My understanding of these problems is that they both involve obsessions and compulsions (and OCPD has other stuff), but the reasons for the obsessions and compulsions is different.

People with OCD do the things they do because they believe that if they don't do them, then terrible things will happen, eg planes will crash, loved ones will die, etc.

People with OCPD do the things they do because they believe very strongly that they are the right things to do.

For example, my dad's unit is filled to the brim with empty boxes (I'm not just talking a couple of boxes, I'm talking about a freaky scary amount of boxes). Every time he buys a TV or kettle or microwave or anything, he keeps the box forever. And he keeps it made up like a box (ie he doesn't even flatten it out). And I'm pretty sure he's doing it because if he ever wants to move house he'll need that box in order to repack the appliance so it won't get damaged in the move. If you tried to reason with him that he could just hire boxes from a removalist or whatever, he would have reasons why that is not the right thing to do. That his way is the one and only right way and to do it any other way would just be *wrong* and being wrong is totally unacceptable. He wouldn't say that last bit out loud, but that is what he believes.

 

Re: I give up Dinah

Posted by littleone on June 28, 2006, at 15:54:21

In reply to I give up happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:42:01

> Clearly my ideas can't trump a textbook. And my efforts are just adding to the potential for hurt.

I would also like to add to this that one textbook does not have all the answers. It just puts forward one train of thought. There a lot of different opinions out there and I believe a person can only get a well balanced and educated view of something from reading many points of view and then coming to a conclusion of their own.

> But I would remind you that there are people here, and lurking, who have been diagnosed with personality disorders, and I, speaking as one of them, would be highly distressed if I believed your textbook.

I would also like to add my voice to Dinah's here. I found this thread very distressing to read. I know that a lot of literature says that PD's have a "poor prognosis" or are "untreatable" or a host of other negative phrases. However after doing a lot of research, I truly believe that anyone can change. That just because certain traits are ingrained in someone, it doesn't mean that they are a hopeless case. It just means that it may require them to work harder and for longer at changing their beliefs and coping strategies. But with a committment to change and the help of a good T, these changes *are* quite possible.

The traits are something they have learned to do throughout their childhood. And what has been learned, can be un-learned.

 

Re: OCD vs OCPD

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 16:52:40

In reply to Re: OCD vs OCPD B2chica, posted by littleone on June 28, 2006, at 15:41:30

I said that I was sorry and since that isn't good enough and my words are being twisted, and overexagerated, and taken out of context. I am not going to bother anymore with any of this anymore.
I was trying to help sort fact from fiction. I said I wasn't an expert and my textbook isn't the idea's of one person, it is based on recent information from thousands of studies. But I guess what they teach psycologists in college is all wrong , so why bother even discussing it. If the pychocolist who write the textbooks , and the teachers who teach the T's don't know anything, then I guess nobody does and all the scientific evidence isn't true. I guess we can ignore everything I have said, because I no longer exist here. Goodbye and enjoy your fantasy world.

 

Re: I give up Dinah

Posted by madeline on June 28, 2006, at 16:56:55

In reply to I give up happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:42:01

Also, keep in mind that textbooks used to say that homosexuality was a mental disorder, all women were hysterical and frontal labotomies were a good idea for ANY mental problem.

Keep the faith sweetie, there is ALWAYS hope. Always.

Maddie

 

Re: I give up Dinah

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 17:17:26

In reply to I give up happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:42:01

I didn't mean to distress you either.

And I'm not so distressed on my own behalf because I don't actually believe it. I just remembered that people have come here pretty discouraged about their diagnoses and I didn't want to contribute to that by continuing the discussion.

I did however look up a study by Stone on the long term prognosis for BPD, which is far more optimistic than they had previously believed. You might want to do a google search.

It's not worth you getting all upset over Happyflower. That's why I bowed out.

 

Re: I give up madeline

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 17:19:19

In reply to Re: I give up Dinah, posted by madeline on June 28, 2006, at 16:56:55

I'm a huge believer in hope. :)

My therapist and I were talking about it today and he said that it depends more on the individual than the disorder. I tend to think that's a good attitude for a therapist to have.

He also clarified that he didn't say I had borderline personality disorder, he said I had borderline traits. I guess I'm the one who identifies with borderline personality disorder.

Thanks, Madeline.

 

Oops. Second post up for Happyflower. (nm)

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 17:22:11

In reply to Re: I give up Dinah, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 17:17:26

 

Excuse me? happyflower

Posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 7:15:03

"Yeah, those antisocials kinda creep me out! "

Substitute ANY other dx in that sentence and tell me that's OK? It's a dx with symptoms they didn't aspire to - any more than the rest of us.

em

 

Re: Excuse me? F*CK OFF!!! TofuEmmy

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:40:55

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

Well since you are going to put your own words in to my post, do you even know what antisocial personality disorder is?????

Well if sociopaths and psychopaths don't creep you out well then I don't know what would. If you can sleep with a socialpath roaming your neighborhood, then you are braver than most. MOST are not treated and kill many people with no remorse whatsoever. So hey, if that is your bag. well... I suppose we sh
ouldn't judge child molesters either and let your children play with them because we are all the same..... Hmmmmm Well everyone who wants to judge me and pick apart everything I say and put words into my posts, can F*CK OFF!!! I am tired of this sh*t, and yes I would be happy for a f*cking block but it doesn't matter to me anymore. SO GIVE ME A FUCKIN BLOCK !!! IT WILL MAKE ME FUCKIN HAPPY TO LEAVE .

 

GIVE ME A FUCKIN BLOCK YOU F*CKERS

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:42:21

In reply to Re: Excuse me? F*CK OFF!!! TofuEmmy, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:40:55

MAKE MY DAY!!!!

 

AND TOFU GIRL CAN STUFF THAT TOFU UP

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:47:57

In reply to GIVE ME A FUCKIN BLOCK YOU F*CKERS, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:42:21

YOUR FUCKIN *SS. I BET EVEN YOUR *SSHOLE IS VEGAN TOO JUST LIKE YOUR PERFECT SELF>

 

Re: AND TOFU GIRL CAN STUFF THAT TOFU UP

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:50:26

In reply to AND TOFU GIRL CAN STUFF THAT TOFU UP, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:47:57

maybe you could go blow a psycho c*ck too and maybe he will chop you up in little pieces and eat you for his meals.

 

Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm)

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

 

Please be civil happyflower

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:15:30

In reply to Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm), posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

I understand that you may feel like your original posts were misunderstood, and you may feel hurt by that. But even if you're feeling hurt, Dr. Bob still asks that you follow the civility guidelines.

Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or use language that could offend others.

If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil

Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.

Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.

Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob

 

Happyflower?

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:23:30

In reply to Re: Excuse me? F*CK OFF!!! TofuEmmy, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 19:40:55

If I remember correctly, you have some experience with your mom that might make this discussion a bit triggering for you?

Do you think you can get in touch with your therapist if you need to?

Nobody is angry with you. At least I'm not. I understand that you're telling us what you read in your textbook, and that you have no reason to disbelieve that. I only backed out of the conversation because I have no degrees or credentials and couldn't see much hope of pressing my point of view against the weight of scholarship.

Deep breaths?

Dinah, acting as poster and friend

 

Re: Happyflower?

Posted by llrrrpp on June 28, 2006, at 21:38:49

In reply to Happyflower?, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 20:23:30

((((Happyflower))))

I'm sorry that you are angry and hurt by this thread.

Please take care of yourself. Even though you're angry, you're still a good person. I hope you don't get blocked, because I'll miss you.

(((((Happyflower)))))

 

HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp

Posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

In reply to Re: Happyflower?, posted by llrrrpp on June 28, 2006, at 21:38:49

I have to say this because you seem so upset and I don't want it to be so!!...

Please understand that the personality disorder "label" is a controversial one! a lot of people don't realize how much so! I would guess that that's what people are reacting to as opposed to you personally.
It is difficult to separate the "humanity" from the symptoms...if that at all makes sense?? so consequently the personality disorder diagnoses are difficult to hear sometimes......
not because the symptoms aren't true, but because of the stigma that is felt to go along with them - it is a truly complicated issue which I do not hope to clarify here

In my experience (and I've got some interesting experiences ;-) this issue is BIG. I wish you didn't have to feel attacked! ...some really basic questions get raised when we talk about PD's - ie, nature vs nurture, intentionality vs. mercy of the fates, etc

I'm sorry :-( I hope you come back

 

........continued

Posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:32:34

In reply to HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp, posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

unfortunately and fortunately we quite often defy efforts to be put into discrete categories..there is so much overlap between "normal" and "abnormal" that the line between the two doesn't seem to exist....

 

Re: Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE)

Posted by verne on June 28, 2006, at 22:50:54

In reply to Excuse me? (THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A BITCH) (nm), posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 20:00:31

I agree with HappyFlower.

verne

 

textbooks

Posted by Adrift on June 28, 2006, at 23:39:25

In reply to Excuse me? happyflower, posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2006, at 18:06:23

Must add this, textbooks often are a form of misinformation and they are also a few years out of date by the time they are printed.

 

Re: HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!!

Posted by Jost on June 28, 2006, at 23:58:29

In reply to HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!! llrrrpp, posted by sleepygirl on June 28, 2006, at 22:09:08

> I have to say this because you seem so upset and I don't want it to be so!!...
>
> Please understand that the personality disorder "label" is a controversial one! a lot of people don't realize how much so! I would guess that that's what people are reacting to as opposed to you personally.
> It is difficult to separate the "humanity" from the symptoms...if that at all makes sense?? so consequently the personality disorder diagnoses are difficult to hear sometimes......
> not because the symptoms aren't true, but because of the stigma that is felt to go along with them - it is a truly complicated issue which I do not hope to clarify here
>
>

This is so true. There's tremendous controversy about PDs, not only theoretically, but in individual cases. When you read the literature more widely, happyflower, you'll realize that these categories are used idiosyncratically by the Ts and Pdocs who do use them-- Moreover, many Ts don't find them useful at all. There's a lot of writing about the way these categories, esp, Borderline PD, or Narcissistic PD, or Anti-social PD, can tend to be used when a T is uncomfortable with a P, or doesn't know how to help, and finds it disturbing.

I wanted to write about this because these names or supposed dxs can be destructive and undermining to people who are being diagnosed-- and if there are those lurking who feel hurt or condemned by having been labeled in that way, I'd want to emphasize that these aren't stable, or even terribly meaningful names.

The reason textbooks talk about them, and cite studies and so forth is because they're giving students a language, and explaining the terrain-- and doing it as if it's literally true, instead of more-- a rather imprecise--although perhaps not entirely wrong-- and subjective way of trying to contain things that are hard to contain--trying to give shape to shifting and not-well-understood ways of being.

No one truly knows if anyone's difficulties can be overcome, because that depends on human aspirations, strengths, and growth, and also the vicissitudes of who anyone becomes involved with, and how life treats them, over time. None of which can be known, or diagnosed or measured.

It's great that happyflower is learning a lot about a complex field, and it's understandable that she is struck by the intrigue and explanatory power of these systems. The limitations of this explanatory power, and the darker side of their use and meaning hasn't become visible yet to her, it seems.

I'm sorry she's been hurt by the discussion. I'm sure she didn't mean any harm by it. I'm also sorry that Dinah and others have been hurt.

 

It might help to remember... (tangent)

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 0:17:55

In reply to Re: HAPPYFLOWER!! Please understand!!, posted by Jost on June 28, 2006, at 23:58:29

...that expressing a different opinion does not necessarily equal an attack. And that sharing what one knows about a topic, even when it contradicts someone else, also does not have to equal an attack.

I'm not saying that differences of opinion are never used as weapons. Unfortunately, that happens. I'm just saying that the two concepts are not interdependent.

gg

 

How come I can't babblemail HF???

Posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:10:24

In reply to It might help to remember... (tangent), posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 0:17:55

Can she babblemail me?
Happyflower, can I somehow get my e-mail to you?
Take care.
Muffy

 

I replied on Admin (link included) muffled

Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2006, at 1:15:26

In reply to How come I can't babblemail HF???, posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:10:24

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20060622/msgs/662476.html

gg


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