Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 662028

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Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower

Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2006, at 22:05:27

I thought I'd start a thread down here to continue the discussion.

> A high percentage are homeless and are in prison because of their disorder. ...In my book it does say that most are not treated because they don't believe there is anything wrong with them.

That sounds an awful lot to me like antisocial personality disorder, versus all personality disorders. That one is the hardest to treat, and there is a high percentage of people with this disorder in the prison systems as compared to the general population.

gg

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 7:15:03

In reply to Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2006, at 22:05:27

Thanks GG for starting a new post. ;-) Yeah, those antisocials kinda creep me out! I didn't realize until my class that antisocials doesn't mean that you have trouble relating in a social manner.

So I guess when I was telling my T he was antisocial because he doesn't talk to anyone at the gym, I was calling him a pyscho path, well I guess if the shoe fits.....LOL

Well my mother hasn't been officially diagnosed, but from what I have readand what my T has said, I think she is antisocial or narcisstic. She is going on her life like nothing is wrong with her. But yet her kids have nothing to do with her and she has no friends. What is scary is that she can pretend to be the nicest person and can make almost anyone believe she is, but inside is a very scary person most would want to avoid.

They have also found a lot parnoid schizoid to out on the streets, you see them a lot of time talking to themselves. It is sad that USA can't do more to help these people. It is very tough on close families, but a lot of them have nobody. It just breaks my heart to see them.

I hope they do come up with some meds to help these people because it will benefit all of us.

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower gardenergirl

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 8:09:07

In reply to Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2006, at 22:05:27

It's terribly annoying to me that the DSM doesn't include affective instability, or mood reactivity, or whatever, as an Axis I disorder. I find it *very* hard to believe that it isn't a biological disorder as much as depression or bipolar or cyclothymia.

I have migraines and IBS and, yes, affective instability. I'm no brain expert, but from what I've read and from what my neurologist told me, they're all likely the result of cascades of neurochemicals that aren't well regulated. Isn't it possible that some people just have an ineffective neurochemical moderating system? That in response to relatively low levels of stimulation they totally overreact? So that flickering lights will bring on a migraine, or anxiety will send me rushing to the bathroom, or the slightest hint of abandonment will have me reacting as if someone just left me for good?

I know that's unscientific. But it annoys me no end that cyclothymia is the closest Axis I diagnosis, and it's just not sufficient.

I think if it were understood to be a biological problem, it would help a lot with the negative judgements.

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 9:45:48

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 8:09:07

so help me out with the OCD vs OCD pd? what would be the difference between the two? i guess i would think of someone not able to function outside the home with OCD, but like my dad with ocd PD, that he can function but is obsessively checking things 8/9 times. is that kinda it??

and what about schizotypal pd? why is that not a class of schizophrenia is it because it's not as 'debilitating'?? i was wondering cuz i've been poked with that label before and my DBT therapist actually said that he viewed these PD more of axis 1 than 2 because he did feel that medication helped most of them and should therefore be in axis 1.
but i'm wondering cuz even though i don't necessarily hallucinate in the general sense when i'm off medication (and it's coming back quickly) is i quite often see shadows all the time, sometimes of people but mostly bugs and large shapes from the corners of my eyes or dart across the room. since they aren't really 'hallucinations' what they heck are they? and why is it when i was taking the zyprexa it stopped all this. i also sometimes hear weird things, like TV's going or babble in another room when i know there isn't any.

so anyway, how is this type of stuff a personality disorder? do they think that if it's personality i can choose to not see/hear this stuff?
is it just anxiety that does this?

curious...
b2c

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:11:34

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 9:45:48

As far as I know Schizptpal is a subtype of schizophrienia, and is very treatable if it is acute or reactive, meaning the symptoms came on rather suddenly in reaction to life stress.

And I believe there are a lot of myths and misinform about personality disorders. It isn't something you do or not do, it is something you have and usually will always have it, but the symptoms can be greatly reduced with some medicines. But it isn't like you wake up one day and say I am not going to be such and such, it isn't a tempory state. But I think it is like astma, when you have it, you always have it, it might be in remission, but it is still there. At least until they can cure it. My book is published 2005, so it is rather current. But then again, this stuff is changing so fast, my book probably is already outdated.

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 10:17:28

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 9:45:48

OCD is more intrusive thoughts and impulses to do rituals to ward off feared consequences, and is classified as an anxiety disorder.

OCPD is usually described in terms of perfectionism and a lack of flexibility. It's considered a personality or characterological disorder. I think that's an overly negative view, personally. I think it would be more compassionate to view OCPD as a way to control anxiety. A person might feel if they could just control everything around them and make sure it's done "right" then nothing bad will happen. But of course they can't control everything, and the resulting anxiety sometimes comes out as anger. I have a fair amount of sympathy for it, myself.

I've been diagnosed, incorrectly I think, with schizotypal personality disorder. My second psychiatrist agreed with me that I don't have it. I might have schizotypal traits but traits do not a disorder make. I think the diagnosis was prematurely given to me based on my family history of delusions, although I'm not really clear whether it was schizophrenia or manic depression.

A lot of people think it should be moved to Axis I as on the milder end of the schizophrenic spectrum.

Since I think most "personality disorders" should be broken into the underlying biological disorders and Axis II reserved for the characteristic coping skills people use, I have no problem with that. Doesn't a cluster of coping mechanisms sound much less judgemental than a "personality disorder"?

My therapist thinks I have borderline personality disorder. I think I have the biological and emotional underpinnings of it, but for the most part my life history wouldn't support the diagnosis. Except for my interactions with my therapist. Then they fit perfectly. :)

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower Dinah

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:19:07

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 8:09:07

Hi Dinah,

Isn't IBS and migranes symptoms of some anxiety disorders? If that is true, then athough it is probably biological, probably caused by anxiety. But anxiety is not a perminate state.

From what i understand personality disorders are not tempory states, it is treatable, but you have it all your life.

But in mood and anxiety disorders,you can recover from it and be healed eventually with meds and therapy. Once you recover, you probably don't need the meds or therapy.

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal happyflower

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:22:23

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:11:34

> And I believe there are a lot of myths and misinform about personality disorders.

i definately agree with that.

>It isn't something you do or not do, it is something you have and usually will always have it, but the symptoms can be greatly reduced with some medicines. But it isn't like you wake up one day and say I am not going to be such and such, it isn't a tempory state. But I think it is like astma, when you have it, you always have it, it might be in remission, but it is still there. At least until they can cure it. My book is published 2005, so it is rather current. But then again, this stuff is changing so fast, my book probably is already outdated.

kinda off topic but about the books, it's great that they get info out as quickly as they can, but in cases of classes it s@cks because usually you can't get many 'used' books because they are always changing...good for us unless we're students huh!
thanks HF

b2c

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal Dinah

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:28:15

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 10:17:28

I kinda agree with you about the borderline disorder. I think maybe you have some of the signs, but usually these people who truly have it, don't have any relationships with anyone. You have been married , have friends, kept a job, still being a mother and kept your relationship with your T. So you can keep relationships and plus as far as I know you don't do impulsive and reckless things. The problems with this new system of diagnoses, is that it can make perfectly normall people appear to have a disorder.

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal Dinah

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:29:29

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 10:17:28

thanks for the clarification Dinah...i think that made it easier for me to understand.

and about the misdiagnosis on your part, i think i find this most frustrating about anytype of diagnosis in the mental health field...they hear about family history and automatically put you in that box... no questions...

and yes...i think PD is SO judgemental...anyone hears axis II and many don't even considered them illnesses and write them off to 'attitudes', which i think is Awful!
and honestly, i even think that the definition of BPD is often different from therapist to therapist...i saw this personally between several of the T's i saw when i first got dx of that. i just didn't feel that i fit the category very well, i didn't have fears of abandonment, i was in a good relationship...etc.etc, but i did cut and i had some bouts of rage and trouble getting out of my depressive state...i guess that was enough. so i just wish the stigma would stop so that they would study these disorders more so the understanding and better diagnosis would be there also.
sorry you struggled with you T about that so much. it's Very frustrating to be put in a category that you Really don't feel you 'belong' in.

thanks Dinah.
b2c.

 

Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:30:05

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal happyflower, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:22:23

Right on! Books are so expenisive. My teacher said that the cost of Pysch books go with the size of the ego's of who has written the book. LOL

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's happyflower

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:36:23

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower Dinah, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:19:07

> From what i understand personality disorders are not tempory states, it is treatable, but you have it all your life.
>
> But in mood and anxiety disorders,you can recover from it and be healed eventually with meds and therapy. Once you recover, you probably don't need the meds or therapy.

interesting what you said about PD not being temporary states....i previously had the dx of BPD, but don't anymore. so does that mean that it was misdiagnosed? (which i believe...i feel my issues before were directly related to both my bipolar-and not on good med combo, and my burried issues that i had not yet talked or remembered fully in therapy)

but i do feel the ST label was a good fit, i guess i don't see anything wrong with that label, it just makes me a little...'quirky' (hehe) as long as it does some good, but so far having that label has only added a label. no one (therapist or pdoc) really recognizes it or ever talks about it??? so what's the point?
my old T (the good one) mentioned it a couple times but we were honestly so busy dealing with the other cr@p that we never really got a chance to talk about that issue.
Great topic folks.
thanks
b2c

 

cost of... LOL SO TRUE!!!!!!! (nm) happyflower

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:37:26

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal B2chica, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:30:05

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's B2chica

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:55:41

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's happyflower, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 10:36:23

Well if it helps you feel better Bi-polar is a mood disorder, not a personality disorder. :-)

My T doesn't like to labels either but has to for insurance companys. And a lot of times it can be a self fullfilling profitcy (can't spell it). And it also effects how people perceive you and how you percieve yourself.

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower happyflower

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:00:57

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower Dinah, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:19:07

Nope. You can experience IBS and migraines without anxiety. Stress makes them more likely. But migraines can also be triggered by hormones, by flickering lights, by lack of sleep. My neurologist said that they are currently believed to be caused by a cascade of serotonin.

There's a stereotype of IBS being part of anxiety, but I think maybe it could just be a common root cause. I *think* IBS is caused by an excess of serotonin in the gut.

I'm not sure that you can make the temporary/permanent distinction so easily. For any number of people depression, manic depression, and anxiety can be a recurring and chronic condition.

And BPD is often "outgrown".

Also, people can change their coping mechanisms. It's just not easy.

My point is that "personality disorders" is an unnecessarily judgemental assessment.

As far as myself... If I read Linehan's description of the inner life of a person with borderline personality disorder I stand up and shout "THAT'S ME!!!!". However, thus far my pdocs in my adulthood have ruled out borderline personality disorder as a diagnosis despite my occasional cutting. I tend to use different coping mechanisms. Instead of having a life marked by instability, my life is marked by excessive attachment to stability. That's my coping mechanisms.

Which goes back to my same argument. I think in many ways I should be treated as a person with borderline personality disorder, especially medically. But in terms of coping mechanisms, I use a different set of coping mechanisms. So in my imaginary perfect DSM world my diagnosis would read something like

Axis I: Anxiety disorder, OCD and unspecified. Mood disorder, affective instability.

Axis II: Coping mechanisms involve excessive clinging to stability, overeating, dissociation, and occasionally cutting.

Treatment plan: Treat the underlying anxiety and affective instability with medications. Therapy would involve learning anxiety and affective instability control techniques such as guided visualization, progressive relaxation, biofeedback, and breathing exercise. In addition therapy would target finding better coping mechanisms than the ones currently used.

Doesn't that sound much better than a Personality Disorder with not much of a positive prognosis?

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower Dinah

Posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 11:14:27

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:00:57

>>As far as myself... If I read Linehan's description of the inner life of a person with borderline personality disorder I stand up and shout "THAT'S ME!!!!". However, thus far my pdocs in my adulthood have ruled out borderline personality disorder as a diagnosis despite my occasional cutting. I tend to use different coping mechanisms. Instead of having a life marked by instability, my life is marked by excessive attachment to stability. That's my coping mechanisms.


first, how would i find Linehan's description of the 'inner life...' i'm very interested to read this.

also, i thought cutting automatically put you in BPD dx? that's what all the T's and nurses told me. if you cut your BPD period...this label was slammed on me like a stack of bricks...i think that's why i rejected it at first. but i'm suprised even with your other comments that they would be hesitant to put you in that category? it seems like you would fit?
but i'm not doc i guess.

thanks for the info.
b2c.

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower B2chica

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:17:13

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower Dinah, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 11:14:27

They on first consultation put it as a rule out diagnosis because of my cutting. But they then ruled it out. :)

Perhaps they were extra conscientous doctors. Or perhaps my overall presentation is just not consistent with BPD.

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:00:57

Hi Dinah,

I guess for me I don't see the label of personality disorder as a negative thing, it is just a title of condition. Like cancer, or hemroids. LOL

You are right about the migranes, I forgot it can be hormonal.

The thing about depression, is that it can be reaccuring due to many things, but it also can be healed and not ever come back. It can also go away on its own without any therapy or meds.
In the case of personality disorders, you will always have it, you can help with the symptoms, but it will always be there. People's symptoms from a personality disorder are not coping mechinisims. If it was it would be understood that they can control their actions. But instead of coping mechinisms, they are biological traits of their personality. Most do not precieve what they are doing, and they can't help it. The fact that you USE a set of copoing mechisims, and are talking about it here, shows me that you don't have a personality disorder. LOL I think we can go around and around with this one! LOL Your poor T ! (just kidding) This is actually fun, I love talking about stuff like this. Plus we don't hit below the belt around here, heck, I would say that we are more adjusted than most people. :-)

 

Hey can you tell that I have been studying? LOL

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:30:53

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

I think I can talk about this stuff in my sleep. And I mean literally ! LOL Now my problem makes me a freak. LOL

 

I give up happyflower

Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:42:01

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

Clearly my ideas can't trump a textbook. And my efforts are just adding to the potential for hurt.

But I would remind you that there are people here, and lurking, who have been diagnosed with personality disorders, and I, speaking as one of them, would be highly distressed if I believed your textbook.

 

Re: I give up Dinah

Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 12:31:35

In reply to I give up happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2006, at 11:42:01

I am sorry Dinah, I seem to have offended you and I didn't mean to , I thought we were just friendly debating this stuff, but I see that I have hurt you and it saddens me .

It doesn't matter if what I say is true or false, what matters most is that it is hurting people and it isn't what I want to do, I just wanted to find out the facts, so I won't talk about this anymore. I truely am sorry to everyone.

 

Good site for info re personality disorders

Posted by gardenergirl on June 28, 2006, at 14:01:53

In reply to Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2006, at 22:05:27

http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/personalitydisorders.htm

It provides the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria as well as some of the "current thinking" since the DSM-IV came out. I think it's a pretty balanced site.

gg

 

Defense mechanisms and coping

Posted by gardenergirl on June 28, 2006, at 14:18:11

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

> People's symptoms from a personality disorder are not coping mechinisims. If it was it would be understood that they can control their actions. But instead of coping mechinisms, they are biological traits of their personality.

I'm not sure where this idea comes from. My understanding is that the symptoms of a PD as they manifest in someone's behavior, thoughts, and feelings, are actually coping responses, but they may not be adaptive. You could also consider them to fall into the category of defense mechanisms, which are behaviors that serve to relieve or avoid a feeling of anxiety or other emotional discomfort. http://www.coldbacon.com/defenses.html
Having and using a variety of the more adaptive defense mechanisms is associated with good mental health, while using fewer and less adaptive oens more rigidly is associated with more distress.

gg

 

Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower

Posted by cloudydaze on June 28, 2006, at 15:03:17

In reply to Re: Continuing discussion of PD's--happyflower, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 11:18:55

> The thing about depression, is that it can be reaccuring due to many things, but it also can be healed and not ever come back. It can also go away on its own without any therapy or meds.
> In the case of personality disorders, you will always have it, you can help with the symptoms, but it will always be there.

- according to my psychaitrist, I have bipolar caused by a chemical inbalance that will never go away on it's own. According to him, I will never be "cured".

You want to know what I think? I think psychology is great - I majored in psych for awhile (it kinda helped me to figure myself out) - but i don't think it's perfect.

There's no reasonable explanation for how I've been able to cope without meds. I still get depressed, but only because I have feelings. I am human. I go through rough spots - i'm going through one now. But knowing I'm going to make it through the pain makes it all okay. I haven't been "cured" or "fixed", I've just learned to cope a little better.

I believe meds can help, but only you can heal yourself, IMO. "Healing" to me doesn't mean the illness is gone, it just means you are stronger than it.

There are some things that can't be explained. Science and Medicine have come a long way, but some things are still a mystery.

 

Re: OCD vs OCPD B2chica

Posted by littleone on June 28, 2006, at 15:41:30

In reply to Re: OCD and schizotypal, posted by B2chica on June 28, 2006, at 9:45:48

> so help me out with the OCD vs OCD pd? what would be the difference between the two? i guess i would think of someone not able to function outside the home with OCD, but like my dad with ocd PD, that he can function but is obsessively checking things 8/9 times. is that kinda it??

My understanding of these problems is that they both involve obsessions and compulsions (and OCPD has other stuff), but the reasons for the obsessions and compulsions is different.

People with OCD do the things they do because they believe that if they don't do them, then terrible things will happen, eg planes will crash, loved ones will die, etc.

People with OCPD do the things they do because they believe very strongly that they are the right things to do.

For example, my dad's unit is filled to the brim with empty boxes (I'm not just talking a couple of boxes, I'm talking about a freaky scary amount of boxes). Every time he buys a TV or kettle or microwave or anything, he keeps the box forever. And he keeps it made up like a box (ie he doesn't even flatten it out). And I'm pretty sure he's doing it because if he ever wants to move house he'll need that box in order to repack the appliance so it won't get damaged in the move. If you tried to reason with him that he could just hire boxes from a removalist or whatever, he would have reasons why that is not the right thing to do. That his way is the one and only right way and to do it any other way would just be *wrong* and being wrong is totally unacceptable. He wouldn't say that last bit out loud, but that is what he believes.


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