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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
So I tried to tell Bert about the stuff I’m having trouble with in the relationship.
I told him my inner 18 year-old was really struggling. (Our current goal is to try to integrate her.) I said she feels he backs away when she wants to talk about certain things and she doesn’t understand why he won’t talk about them.
I gave him an example: I reminded him that last week I’d said I felt hurt and humiliated and wanted comfort but didn’t know whether comfort was appropriate or even possible in therapy, and I said that he’d replied to the part about feeling hurt and humiliated but not to the part about wanting comfort. I told him that whenever she says she wants something from him that comes out of the father stuff – something that’s not about therapy – he backs away or ignores it. I told him she’s not actually asking for it, she just wants to talk about wanting it.
He said perhaps he didn’t realise he was backing away, but that he’s willing to talk about my relationship with my father.
I said he didn’t get it; it’s not that I want to talk about my relationship with my father. I want to talk about my relationship with *him* when it feels reminiscent of the father stuff. I said when he backs away from it or blocks it I feel very small and very disgusting.
He didn’t respond to that. I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it wasn’t a response to what I’d said. I told him he still hadn’t answered the question. He said, “What was the question?”
I told him if he didn’t know what the question was, then I wasn’t repeating it. I apologised, but said I know how much guys like to try to guess how women are feeling!
I said my eighteen year-old was very heavily emotionally invested in the relationship. She doesn’t understand why he doesn’t understand what’s going on with her. And I said he still hadn’t answered the question. He looked utterly baffled.
Oh, and I managed to talk about all this after he’d suggested that I should consider letting him refer me to someone who does more long term work. I said I’d rather eat my own ears than try to build another therapeutic relationship.
Why doesn’t he get it? What am I saying wrong? I want to talk about the aspects of my relationship with him that remind me of my father. I want to talk about the things I want from him that aren’t about therapy. Am I being completely inarticulate? Does anyone understand what I mean?
Tamar
Posted by annierose on June 22, 2006, at 6:18:39
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
Yes I do understand what you mean. He doesn't understand that language, and it's not any fault of his own. In this session, I think he tried to tell you that when he said "that maybe you should see someone that does more long term therapy." His training doesn't help people with these types of relationship issues (IMO). It doesn't make him a bad therapist or a bad person. He is probably quite good as what he does, and I give him credit for wanting/trying to help you.
I know it's painful to seek out another therapist. When I quit my T mid-session (years ago) I did see another therapist. And it was a completely different experience and a good one. It's just different and different doesn't mean bad. And you won't be starting from scratch. You have already figured out things with T1 and T1 will give you the referrals to start the search. Ask him if these Ts are psychodynamic - that's really what you are seeking - I think. You will find the relationship so rewarding and exhausting.
I'm not suggesting, although it sounds that way, that you up and leave this therapist. I just think you are stumbling into uncharted terriority with T1 and he is waving a yellow flag, saying "I'm not sure I can go there. I don't know how to respond in an appropriate manner. I don't know if I can help you with this."
You are making complete sense. My T would encourage this dialogue and pull things from it to help me see where this feeling originated - why it came to be a global template for me.
Posted by Poet on June 22, 2006, at 9:16:06
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
Hi Tamar,
I think you explained the question and what you needed to talk about clearly in your post. If this accurately reflects what you said to your T than it's his fuzzy listening and not the way you said it.
It seems to me that he is reluctant to talk about his relationship with you in any context. He would like you to talk about your father, but not as it relates to him. Maybe he's so uncomfortable with it that his defense is to just say he doesn't understand what you're getting act.
I understand your frustration and all I can suggest is that you ask him what doesn't he understand. What can you clarify for him. That seems like a lot of work on your part though. Darn him. Maybe Annierose is right and you should find a therapist who does psychodynamic therapy. I know how hard beginning a therapist search (again) will be. Sorry, I wish I had some other ideas for you.
Poet
Posted by fallsfall on June 22, 2006, at 10:46:08
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
My first therapist was CBT, and when I told her that I thought I needed to go "deeper" she said that she didn't do that. But I insisted, and she tried, but she didn't do it well at all. I stayed with her because I "needed" her. Eventually it all fell apart (mostly because she couldn't give me what I needed). She kept trying to tell me that she had taught me all that she knew, but I couldn't go to someone else.
Eventually I did change therapists (to a psychodynamic one). What a difference. We had recreated the transference problem AND resolved it within 8 weeks. Of course, there were (and are) many more to go, but I was amazed at how quickly this therapist could get to the issues and how easily he could help me work through them.
I encourage you to ask your therapist what kind of therapy might be more helpful for you.
Good luck.
Posted by muffled on June 22, 2006, at 11:20:51
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
Mebbe its that one step back thing. Where its too hard to talk directly bout your Dad, so you talk about your dad by talking bout your T, so its safer.
Or talking bout feelings. I can talk for my Kid inside, but not for myself. I need that one step away to be safe.
I don't think I explaining it too good.
Also my T says communication is more based on tone and body language than just words. Mebbe your tone/body lang/words are not matching up when your talking. mebbe other 'stuff' is interfereing.
Sorry this is so vague.
Hope you get what I'm trying to get at.
muffled
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 11:46:40
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
It does sound to me like you explained yourself well. Perhaps bringing your post to your T might help? From what you describe, it also sounds more like his failing rather than yours. Perhaps this is just an area that he's not comfortable with for whatever reason. Maybe he has issues of his own, maybe he doesn't feel competent, etc.
But please don't take this on as your failing. When a T doesn't "get" what a client is saying, it's the T's failing, not the clients, imo.
gg
Posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 12:26:38
In reply to I failed again, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 5:58:47
((((Tamar))))
I don't think you failed. Your therapist doesn't have the training to do this.
I think he is probably extremely good in short term, CBT oriented therapy, but definitely isn't *comfortable at all* in getting into deeper issues like working through your transference about him and wants and needs and making sense out of it. He really doesn't know it. And when you keep trying, you are just going on hitting on a hard wall and getting yourself bruised again and again and wondering what you are doing wrong.
You aren't doing anything wrong, only that you are seeing a wrong T.
And when a T says you shoudl see someone else, I think it is about time you take it very seriously. Because usually Ts don't say it very lightly. When he says it, I think he realizes very well that he is not able to help you, and he is good enough to acknowledge it to you, rather than doing a half *ssed job of it by trying to do it himself. And probably he is thinking the same now himself too. He is probably saying to himself, "I failed again in trying to help her". And it doesn't do good to him too.
It would save both of you lot of frustration and pain and anger and bitterness down the road, if you decide to call it quits now, and work with someone else. Ask him for a referral, or find out someone else on your own, and atleast interview couple more Ts. And maybe you can strike a deal with your T, and ask him to assure you that he will take you back if that new relationship fails to work. Take 3 months off, and see someone new, and if it doesn't go well, come back to him.
How does that sound? You would be so much better off with a different T. I hate to see you hurting like this. And it is a hurt that you have no reason to feel. And you are wasting time and effort and money also.
Posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 13:50:15
In reply to Re: I failed again » Tamar, posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 12:26:38
I don't know if you think like me, but if I were in that position (and you know I have been), the harder issue that I would have found difficult to accept would be the question, "Well if he didn't know it already, that is ok. But then, why doesn't he care enough about me, to spend a little effort and time to learn it and help me out? Is that such a difficult thing? I know I learnt it, and all the babblers learn it even without a degree in therapy, so why can't he jsut do this little bit of stretch and learn it? Why doesn't he care that much about me?"
That, for me, would have the most difficult to accept. Not that he didn't know it already, but that he wouldn't care to learn it even now. It would make me doubt my own worth of being cared about.
I am not sure if you have been plagued with this kind of questioning. But if you are, then you know you are not alone.
And no, we can never find out the answer. As you said, most professionals, just won't question themselves or learn new things.
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 17:34:13
In reply to Re: I failed again » Tamar, posted by annierose on June 22, 2006, at 6:18:39
Hi Annierose,
> Yes I do understand what you mean. He doesn't understand that language, and it's not any fault of his own. In this session, I think he tried to tell you that when he said "that maybe you should see someone that does more long term therapy." His training doesn't help people with these types of relationship issues (IMO). It doesn't make him a bad therapist or a bad person. He is probably quite good as what he does, and I give him credit for wanting/trying to help you.
I suspect you are right. Although the thing about long term therapy wasn’t a matter of referring me immediately. He was talking about after we finish our work together. And he chose to work with me in the way he’s working with me; he’s using a lot more psychodynamic technique than anything else. But it looks to me as if he’s not entirely prepared for the consequences. I’m pretty sure he has been trained in psychodynamic psychotherapy, but I suspect it’s been a while since he practised it.
> I know it's painful to seek out another therapist. When I quit my T mid-session (years ago) I did see another therapist. And it was a completely different experience and a good one. It's just different and different doesn't mean bad. And you won't be starting from scratch. You have already figured out things with T1 and T1 will give you the referrals to start the search. Ask him if these Ts are psychodynamic - that's really what you are seeking - I think. You will find the relationship so rewarding and exhausting.
I think when the stuff I’m working with him is over I will do just that!
> I'm not suggesting, although it sounds that way, that you up and leave this therapist. I just think you are stumbling into uncharted terriority with T1 and he is waving a yellow flag, saying "I'm not sure I can go there. I don't know how to respond in an appropriate manner. I don't know if I can help you with this."
That makes sense. On the other hand, if he were actually saying that (out loud), I could work with it. We could work together to negotiate comfort levels. But I’m increasingly coming to think that the problem is his countertransference rather than inexperience or lack of training. I suspect he’s in a fairly negative countertransference right now and that he’s struggling to handle it. I think it’s because we’re dealing with trauma issues. I was reading Judith Herman’s book "Trauma and Recovery" and she has some very interesting points to make about transference in patients who have been traumatised (swings from positive to negative transference, often very quickly), and in the complicated countertransferences that result for the therapist, often leaving the therapist feeling deskilled. It seemed to be a fairly good description of what’s going on in my therapy at the moment.
> You are making complete sense. My T would encourage this dialogue and pull things from it to help me see where this feeling originated - why it came to be a global template for me.
Ahhh… a global template! That’s a very interesting idea. I shall think about that!
Thanks so much for your response! It was really helpful.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 17:44:05
In reply to Re: I failed again » Tamar, posted by Poet on June 22, 2006, at 9:16:06
Hi Poet,
> I think you explained the question and what you needed to talk about clearly in your post. If this accurately reflects what you said to your T than it's his fuzzy listening and not the way you said it.Yeah. At first I blamed myself again. But in fact I said how I felt very clearly. More clearly than I ever have before. More clearly than I could have imagined until this week when I felt desperate enough to spell it out. And he still didn’t hear it. There’s only one explanation (I think): he doesn’t want to hear it. I could have it written in skywriting over his house and he still wouldn’t see it.
> It seems to me that he is reluctant to talk about his relationship with you in any context. He would like you to talk about your father, but not as it relates to him. Maybe he's so uncomfortable with it that his defense is to just say he doesn't understand what you're getting act.
That makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, we have been talking about the relationship quite a bit over the last few weeks. We had to after all the forgetting.
> I understand your frustration and all I can suggest is that you ask him what doesn't he understand. What can you clarify for him. That seems like a lot of work on your part though. Darn him. Maybe Annierose is right and you should find a therapist who does psychodynamic therapy. I know how hard beginning a therapist search (again) will be. Sorry, I wish I had some other ideas for you.
I guess if I want to keep working with him I shall have to be patient but keep pressing it. I don’t mind doing a lot of work. But I worry that part of the problem might be that he feels criticised and of course if I pursue it he’s bound to feel more criticised. I’ve been trying to indicate how much I value him, but of course I don’t know what his issues are.
Thanks so much for your support. I really appreciate it.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 17:50:04
In reply to Re: I failed again, posted by fallsfall on June 22, 2006, at 10:46:08
> My first therapist was CBT, and when I told her that I thought I needed to go "deeper" she said that she didn't do that. But I insisted, and she tried, but she didn't do it well at all. I stayed with her because I "needed" her. Eventually it all fell apart (mostly because she couldn't give me what I needed). She kept trying to tell me that she had taught me all that she knew, but I couldn't go to someone else.
I think if my therapist says anything like that to me I will trust his judgement. But it hasn’t come to that yet, and I do find our work useful despite the frustrations.
> Eventually I did change therapists (to a psychodynamic one). What a difference. We had recreated the transference problem AND resolved it within 8 weeks. Of course, there were (and are) many more to go, but I was amazed at how quickly this therapist could get to the issues and how easily he could help me work through them.
Wow! Eight weeks???!!! I think you have to take some of the credit for that yourself and not hand it all to your therapist. I could barely string a sentence together eight weeks into therapy!
> I encourage you to ask your therapist what kind of therapy might be more helpful for you.
Yes. I think it’s clear that he thinks I need long term therapy, and he can’t offer me that because of the restrictions of the service he works in. But I’m really not ready for it. Or at least I’m not ready to see someone different.
Thanks Falls. That was a very useful take on it.
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 17:57:54
In reply to Re: I tried again » Tamar, posted by muffled on June 22, 2006, at 11:20:51
Hi Muffled,
Great change of subject line! Very subtle but very effective!
> Mebbe its that one step back thing. Where its too hard to talk directly bout your Dad, so you talk about your dad by talking bout your T, so its safer.
Makes sense.
> Or talking bout feelings. I can talk for my Kid inside, but not for myself. I need that one step away to be safe.
Yeah! In my case it’s my 18 year-old who can’t talk for herself. She insists I talk for her. And it definitely wouldn’t be possible for her to talk for herself. She tried it once and got really terrified.
> I don't think I explaining it too good.
I think you’re explaining it perfectly. You are extremely good with words.
> Also my T says communication is more based on tone and body language than just words. Mebbe your tone/body lang/words are not matching up when your talking. mebbe other 'stuff' is interfereing.
Oh! That’s really interesting! I wonder if it’s something like that. It’s entirely possible, because I try to reveal as little as possible, so he might be able to tell that he’s not getting the whole story.
> Sorry this is so vague.
> Hope you get what I'm trying to get at.Definitely. Thanks so much Muffled. That was really helpful.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 18:03:50
In reply to Re: I failed again » Tamar, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 11:46:40
> It does sound to me like you explained yourself well. Perhaps bringing your post to your T might help? From what you describe, it also sounds more like his failing rather than yours. Perhaps this is just an area that he's not comfortable with for whatever reason. Maybe he has issues of his own, maybe he doesn't feel competent, etc.
I think you’re right. And I don’t want to scare him or make him uncomfortable. But on the other hand I want him to know what his deal is. Maybe we’ll never be able to have the discussion I’d like to have, but I would prefer it to be a conscious decision rather than an unconscious avoidance.
> But please don't take this on as your failing. When a T doesn't "get" what a client is saying, it's the T's failing, not the clients, imo.
I can’t help trying to take some responsibility for it though. It feels as if the alternative is giving up. And he really is good. We’re just having a hard time at the moment. Sigh.
Thanks very much for the wise suggestions and for the support.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 18:17:25
In reply to And perhaps the harder issue is » orchid, posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 13:50:15
> ((((Tamar))))
>
> I don't think you failed. Your therapist doesn't have the training to do this.
>
> I think he is probably extremely good in short term, CBT oriented therapy, but definitely isn't *comfortable at all* in getting into deeper issues like working through your transference about him and wants and needs and making sense out of it. He really doesn't know it. And when you keep trying, you are just going on hitting on a hard wall and getting yourself bruised again and again and wondering what you are doing wrong.You may well be right. I know that I’m resisting that interpretation because I don’t want to believe it. I will work on that!
> You aren't doing anything wrong, only that you are seeing a wrong T.
>
> And when a T says you shoudl see someone else, I think it is about time you take it very seriously. Because usually Ts don't say it very lightly. When he says it, I think he realizes very well that he is not able to help you, and he is good enough to acknowledge it to you, rather than doing a half *ssed job of it by trying to do it himself. And probably he is thinking the same now himself too. He is probably saying to himself, "I failed again in trying to help her". And it doesn't do good to him too.I realise that I didn’t explain that part of it very well. He wasn’t talking about referring me now, but about getting me long term support after I finish my work with him. The subject of seeing someone else was quite a shock to me, but my therapist did make a commitment to keep seeing me as long as it’s necessary.
> It would save both of you lot of frustration and pain and anger and bitterness down the road, if you decide to call it quits now, and work with someone else. Ask him for a referral, or find out someone else on your own, and atleast interview couple more Ts. And maybe you can strike a deal with your T, and ask him to assure you that he will take you back if that new relationship fails to work. Take 3 months off, and see someone new, and if it doesn't go well, come back to him.
>
> How does that sound? You would be so much better off with a different T. I hate to see you hurting like this. And it is a hurt that you have no reason to feel. And you are wasting time and effort and money also.It does sound like a good idea in some ways. I will think about it seriously. But I would want to be absolutely sure that I’m not running away from my difficulties with the therapeutic relationship, because if I don’t give it my best shot it will simply follow me to another therapist.
> I don't know if you think like me, but if I were in that position (and you know I have been), the harder issue that I would have found difficult to accept would be the question, "Well if he didn't know it already, that is ok. But then, why doesn't he care enough about me, to spend a little effort and time to learn it and help me out? Is that such a difficult thing? I know I learnt it, and all the babblers learn it even without a degree in therapy, so why can't he jsut do this little bit of stretch and learn it? Why doesn't he care that much about me?"
I suppose there’s the question of professional responsibility. I can have a discussion about transference with anyone at any time, but I’m not a professional and I don’t have any institutional responsibility for people’s mental health. He’d have to do a lot of study and get practical experience to be able to work effectively with a different theoretical orientation. But yeah, at some level I just want him to learn it for me!
Thanks Orchid. Your support means a lot to me.
Tamar
Posted by orchid on June 22, 2006, at 19:30:00
In reply to Re: And perhaps the harder issue is » orchid, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 18:17:25
I understand the reluctance to seek out a new T as of yet. No doubt it is a very hard (if not impossible) decision.
But just keep that in mind, and maybe you might be able to save yourself from hurting about his lack of insight in the future. Just remember it is his limitation, and doesn't say anything about you.
As long as you are aware of it, and accept it, I think you still might be able to do atleast partially effective therapy with him with whatever capabilities he possesses. Maybe just even don't talk to him this transferential stuff for sometime, till he eases a little bit, and slowly you might be able to guide him into working with you through it after both of you establish a comfortable relationship. For now, probably just skip the transference portion for some sessions, and use his capabilities where he is at his best.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2006, at 21:13:00
In reply to Re: I failed again » annierose, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2006, at 17:34:13
> > I'm not suggesting, although it sounds that way, that you up and leave this therapist. I just think you are stumbling into uncharted terriority with T1 and he is waving a yellow flag, saying "I'm not sure I can go there. I don't know how to respond in an appropriate manner. I don't know if I can help you with this."
>
> That makes sense. On the other hand, if he were actually saying that (out loud), I could work with it. We could work together to negotiate comfort levels.Tamar, I think this is a very important part of what's going on. I know you haven't been here from the beginning of my therapy saga, and I know that right now it looks more like an object lesson than a success story. But we did a lot of what I call "fighting to relationship".
At first, he didn't say what was going on out loud. At first, he tried to stay in his comfort zone. But I kept working at it, at times getting more and more specific, until we came to a workable relationship (until lately).
After I found Babble, I did a lot of bringing in my posts and responses to my posts, and we'd talk about why he would or wouldn't choose this or that approach. I'd bring in other people's posts and say "There. That's what I'm looking for. Right there." And we'd argue about it until we came to an understanding.
It was sort of like I suggested Dr. Bob do. He'd reflect back to me what he thought I was saying. And he'd be completely and utterly wrong. So I'd reflect back to him what I heard him saying I was saying, and how that differed from what I was saying. And we'd do it in the opposite direction as well.
At first I was stymied about why he always interpreted what I said in such horrendously negative ways.
But after we did a lot of reflective listening, we sort of worked it out.
At one point didn't I hear you say that you gave up on communicating something because he didn't get it? It's ok to give up in one session, take some time, and come back to it with a different way of saying it, when you have more energy or are less frustrated.
Of course, the big breakthrough in my therapeutic relationship *did* come when my therapist realized his countertransference. One day it was late, I think he scheduled an appointment after whatever job he had then. He was tired, and his defenses were down, and he said that he always had had a problem with dependent women. Then he stopped and looked horrified. He told me a little about what he meant by it, but in future sessions he really wouldn't talk about it further. He didn't deny it happened, he'd just listen to what I was saying and focus on some other aspect of it.
But from that session forward he stopped interpreting what I said in such a negative way. He obviously did some work on his own in therapy or supervision and was able to separate out me from whatever dependent woman he was thinking of.
In retrospect, years later, all he'll say is that he realized that he was trying to change me and that nobody ever changed until they were accepted the way they were. So he made a conscious decision to accept me.
I also learned later about the client who demanded forever therapy and then quit six months after he semiagreed to it.
So, maybe you aren't wrong about that. But it doesn't have to be the death of the relationship. When you think about it, we all have negative transferences to most people in our lives at some point or another.
I saw him as the mother who was never on time to pick me up from kindergarten, and I never knew how much not on time she'd be. And he saw me as some mysterious dependent woman from his past, mixed with a fickle client from his past.
Which is way more than you needed to know...
But. If you want to continue working with him, maybe my experience will help. Bring in posts or writings (you can always edit out the stuff you don't want him to hear as you read them aloud). Try reflective listening. Make sure both of you are hearing what the other is actually saying. And persevere for as long as the system will allow.
Of course, your therapist is not my therapist and you aren't me and mileage may vary accordingly.
This is the end of the thread.
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