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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on March 10, 2006, at 21:24:39
How do you know if something is "just transference" or real?
I told my T on tuesday that I was feeling like hurting myself in order to get her attention becase I dont feel like shes hearing me at all. Whenever I mention feeling unsafe or other serious things, its like she barely hears it, and never asks later if I'm okay. I have a history of suicide attemps and SI so I just wish she'd ask..
But when I finally told her I wasnt feeling heard (in a note) and we talked about it, she immediately labeled it as transference. My family completely ignored me growing up, especially with emotional issues, so this makes sense.. but I'm feeling lost. I truly feel like she isnt hearing me, and its really hurting.. but maybe shes right, and it is just a transference reaction.
How do you know whats real and what isnt?
Posted by pegasus on March 10, 2006, at 21:59:09
In reply to tranference or real feelings?, posted by wishingstar on March 10, 2006, at 21:24:39
Hmm. I have a hard time understanding how labeling your feelings of being unheard as transference is supposed to help. It seems rather obvious to me that that's just going to make you feel more unheard. I would think that a more helpful approach would be to do whatever it takes to help you feel heard, even if it has to be rather extreme at first. Such as keeping her thoughts about transference to herself, for starters. And maybe then asking you what you want her to hear.
So, can I ask you what you'd like her to hear that she hasn't been hearing?
peg
Posted by muffled on March 10, 2006, at 21:59:40
In reply to tranference or real feelings?, posted by wishingstar on March 10, 2006, at 21:24:39
I dunno how you tell whats real. All I know is my T is very patient with me when I seem to feel she wants to dump me, over and over again. She just keeps reassuring me each time I get that feeling again.
She's the same with my trusting her, then not trusting her, over and over too.
I think I must drive her nuts, but she says no.
I dunno.
Seems to me, even if its transferrance, the feelings themselves are real enough. Just maybe they not rational, but then feelings often aren't.
Your T sounds a little harsh?
But mebbe thats just me having transferrance!LOL.
Take care
Muffled
Posted by Racer on March 10, 2006, at 23:41:04
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings?, posted by pegasus on March 10, 2006, at 21:59:09
Posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 17:30:29
In reply to tranference or real feelings?, posted by wishingstar on March 10, 2006, at 21:24:39
> How do you know if something is "just transference" or real?
I reckon anything that’s transference is also very real and often very distressing.
> I told my T on tuesday that I was feeling like hurting myself in order to get her attention becase I dont feel like shes hearing me at all. Whenever I mention feeling unsafe or other serious things, its like she barely hears it, and never asks later if I'm okay. I have a history of suicide attemps and SI so I just wish she'd ask..
Yeah, I can imagine that. And I’d say if you feel unsafe, it’s not “just transference”. Part of her job (IMHO) is helping you to feel safe enough to talk about the difficulties you’re having. I don’t see how you can do much work in therapy if you’re not feeling safe enough to talk. On the other hand, therapists do have to be careful not to take responsibility for our actions (like self injury). When I told my T about cutting myself after therapy his first question was, “What did you use?” But he also asked me what feelings and thoughts I was having when I cut myself, and I definitely felt he cared about it.
> But when I finally told her I wasnt feeling heard (in a note) and we talked about it, she immediately labeled it as transference. My family completely ignored me growing up, especially with emotional issues, so this makes sense.. but I'm feeling lost. I truly feel like she isnt hearing me, and its really hurting.. but maybe shes right, and it is just a transference reaction.
Again, there may be some transference there, but labelling it as transference doesn’t help you much. If I were in your position I might ask the T how she plans to address this transference within therapy and how she can help you to feel safer in therapy. I believe therapy has to be something you both bring to the work: if you have transference then you’re not alone, but at the same time she must have some countertransference reactions. How can she use those to help you? That would be my question…
>
> How do you know whats real and what isnt?Your feelings are real. If you don’t feel heard, it’s something you and your T need to work on together. I hope she wasn’t dismissing your feelings (I know the label of transference can feel like that). For what it’s worth, I found my initial experience of transference desperately painful, but ultimately it was the vehicle for discovering how to heal. So it has its uses, even though it can feel awful.
Also, some Ts are more ‘touchy-feely’ than others. Maybe your T prefers to maintain an emotional distance, while others are more inclined to comfort or hug their clients. I think it’s possible to do great work in therapy with a distant therapist, but it can be painful to settle into the relationship. However, once you both trust each other, I think you can do some really good work…
Good luck!
Tamar
Posted by wishingstar on March 11, 2006, at 20:51:08
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings?, posted by pegasus on March 10, 2006, at 21:59:09
Yes.. you're right. Thank you. It does make me feel just as unheard as before. We did talk about it for a bit and she gave me a chance to describe why I felt that way, but in the end, I knew she still didnt get it and nothing is going to change. We have a very similar conversation almost every week, and almsot every week I feel like it has really clicked for her.. but then the next week, we're back at the same old place. Maybe she has a bad memory? Haha I dont know.
When I first read the last sentence (asking what I want her to hear) I felt like crying. Not because I mind you asking.. but because thats really all I need her to say. It feels like I tell her EXACTLY what I need (like, "ive noticed that when you use these specific feeling words, it hits the emotional level for me") but she doesnt hear it.
I dont know if theres one particlar thing I want her to hear. I want her to know that I'm not doing okay right now. I feel into a pretty deep depression a few months ago (not the first time) and was cutting myself and very suicidal, all of which I told her.. but I'm afraid she thinks I'm exagerrating or something. Once about a year ago I mentioned feeling suicidal and she gave me her home phone number. This time, she doesnt even bring it up ever again. Rather, we end up talking about stress with school or some memory from when I was a kid or something else that is just not part of the big picture for me right now. Often, I'm not even really mentally with her during these conversations (I've told her this). But anyway, I dont expect her home number just because I'm feeling bad (it was a nice surprise) but I do expect her to ask, especially when she knows it was so hard for me to say to begin with.. maybe I expect too much? When I first mentioned feeling suicidal, she just said "but is that what you really want?" The therapist in me (im training) says well no, of course not.. its not logical.. but the emotional person in me says YES. I want her to validate how bad I'm feeling.
I want to tell her that I'm afraid that I cant do it anymore. I'm not feeling so desperately suicidal anymore, which is great.. but I'm still feeling totally helpless and worthless. I hate myself so much sometimes. I just want to scream "I give up!" And I want her to know how very, very scary it is for me to trust anyone at all. I just need someone to care about me so badly.
Shes probably right that part of it is transference. I KNOW she cares about me and is listening. I wonder if I'm expecting too much? All it would really take, I think, is for her to ask me later how I'm doing about something that was tough for me to talk about, or even a statement like "i know thats really hard" or "that sounds really painful." Thats it. I must not be speaking english when I say that to her!
People have mentioned to me before that I should switch Ts.. I dont know. It took me a year to even talk openly with her like I do, and shes making a special financial deal with me that I doubt I'd get anywhere else (no insurance). I know she cares about me.. I just dont think I have it in my to leave her right now. I read just today a passage talking about how a patient has to be ready to take the next step, but when they are, the therapist has to meet them half way.. I guess thats where the problem is. I dont think shes meeting me half way. And I just cant take that leap. Maybe thats my problem.
Sorry for such a long post. thanks for your interest.. I really appreciate it.
Posted by wishingstar on March 11, 2006, at 20:54:50
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings? » wishingstar, posted by muffled on March 10, 2006, at 21:59:40
It makes me so happy to see that you all really do get this. I'm glad I'm not alone here.
I can really relate to what you said about trusting then not trusting and feeling like you're going to get dropped. I'm afraid of that all the time, but like yours, my T keeps telling me she isnt going to. If I were my T, I'd be sick of me by now.. but I think many of them have some amazing patience.. or at least they act like it. I guess you have to have that to be a therapist in some ways.
I dont know if shes harsh or not. Sometimes I feel like she is, but overall, I think I'm probably misinterpreting and not being as clear as I should be. And you're right, whether its transference or not, it still feels real...
Sounds like we have a lot of similar feelings with our Ts. Good luck with yours! :)
Posted by wishingstar on March 11, 2006, at 21:03:26
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings? (***SI trigger** » wishingstar, posted by Tamar on March 11, 2006, at 17:30:29
Thanks for the response.. I agree, its definitely not her job to take responsibility for my actions. She asked to see my SI once and after we discussed why that wasnt helpful for me (it motivated it, in a way) she never asked to see again.. but now she wont even ask about the topic at all, and seems reluctant to discuss it. I mentioned last week that I think I sort of shot myself in the foot by telling her I dont like to show it.. maybe she thinks she shouldnt talk about it at all. I dont know. It's too scary to talk about hard things because then.. its out there, but I still feel alone with it. I need her to help me talk about these things.
Those are good questions you raised. I might ask her that next time I see her. But she has very strong boundaries, so I doubt I'd ever get anything about any countertransferece out of her. I guess it doesnt hurt to try.
You're right about the label of transference feeling dismissive. It feels like it was just another instance in which she didnt really hear me. Maybe I'm not being clear enough with her, because I know I worry too much about her feelings.. who knows. I dont really think thats it though.
Why does therapy have to be so confusing? In a way, I feel like you all are hearing me MUCH more than she does sometimes. It helps. Thank you.
Posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 21:32:58
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings? » pegasus, posted by wishingstar on March 11, 2006, at 20:51:08
> Yes.. you're right. Thank you. It does make me feel just as unheard as before.
>
>
>
> Rather, we end up talking about stress with school or some memory from when I was a kid or something else that is just not part of the big picture for me right now. Often, I'm not even really mentally with her during these conversations (I've told her this).That really does sound as though she's really and truly not hearing you, at least not enough to recognize that you're not benefiting from therapy with her right now. Can you tell her that you need to talk about something else? Or does she redirect you? I don't mean saying that you need to talk about [x], because I find that I often don't know what I do need, but can you tell her that the topic under discussion is not on your map right now? Does she allow you to explore what your current needs in therapy are?
>
> .. but I'm still feeling totally helpless and worthless. I hate myself so much sometimes. I just want to scream "I give up!" And I want her to know how very, very scary it is for me to trust anyone at all. I just need someone to care about me so badly.Do you need someone to care about you? Or do you need someone to respect you enough to make some effort to listen? Do you need someone to *earn* your trust?
Trust is a big issue for me, especially since I got a weird reaction once from a therapist when I told her that I didn't trust anyone unconditionally, but that I thought the conditional trust I had for some people was better, because it respected their limitations; it didn't ask them to do what they weren't able to do. Until I explained it, though...
But there's another issue with trust: *blind trust,* trust that is not earned, is dangerous. It's unfair for anyone to ask you to trust them, without making some move to earn that trust. (Think of that stereotype of the smarmy con man, saying, "Trust me...") One way that therapists *earn* clients' trust is to listen, and validate. Sure, after validating, they may then point out the cognitive errors -- but first they listen, and then they validate that you are feeling that way. Having a therapist tell you that you aren't actually feeling [x], but really having reaction [d], is in the category called Not Helpful.
(I've had it happen, by the way, so I can say that from experience.)
>
> Shes probably right that part of it is transference. I KNOW she cares about me and is listening. I wonder if I'm expecting too much?How did this happen? You're asking for something perfectly reasonable: for your therapist to listen to what you tell her. How did that suddenly get to be your misinterpretation? If she's not hearing you, and she's telling you that you're not feeling unheard, but only experiencing transference, how is she listening?
Maybe part of it is transference, but you know what? Sometimes they're windmills, but they just might be giants.
>
>
I'm sorry you're having trouble, and wish I could send you my therapist. She doesn't do a sliding scale, I'm afraid, but she's wonderful. I feel heard, which is not something that always happens with me, but more importantly, if I said that I didn't feel heard -- she would NEVER ask me to back that up, she would tell me that I feel what I feel, validate that feeling. Only after doing that would she consider trying to explore any cognitive distortions adding to that feeling. It wouldn't be helpful to do it the other way around.Can you explore whether there are other options for you for therapists in your area with a sliding scale? You don't have to change therapists, but wouldn't you feel better knowing that you have options? That you're not settling for, not trapped with, but actually choosing to work with this T?
I hope something in there helped. And I hope I didn't cross any lines towards making you feel worse. I ache that you feel unheard by your own therapist, and it's bringing up some of my own feelings about having been unheard by therapists in the past. Peace.
Posted by pegasus on March 12, 2006, at 15:33:54
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings? » pegasus, posted by wishingstar on March 11, 2006, at 20:51:08
Oh, wow, wishingstar, I can really hear how hard you're trying to communicate with your T. And that she doesn't seem to be hearing you. I'm not sure why it would be relevant whether your feelings are because she's really not hearing you, or because you're having some kind of transference. Either way, it's clear that you really do feel unheard. It seems to me that's an important theme to explore in your therapy. Her failure to address it must be very painful for you.
I'm so sorry that she's not taking your explanations of how poorly you're doing seriously. Or at least not communicating it to you, if she is. I guess she thinks she is communicating better than she is? That must be what she means by labeling your feelings as transference.
I can't imagine why she wouldn't tell you the explicit things you're saying you need to hear from her. I mean, is there some therapeutic reason that she would decline to do that? Or is she just forgetting? Or what?
Is there any way you could take your post to her and let her read it? Or are you afraid that she still wouldn't respond sufficiently, and then you'd feel even worse?
Whatever ends up happening with your T, please let us know how you're doing, and we'll try to hear you.
peg
Posted by wishingstar on March 12, 2006, at 22:26:12
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings?, posted by pegasus on March 12, 2006, at 15:33:54
I cant even tell you how much better the responses I've gotten have made me feel.. just because now I know I'm not crazy and that maybe I actually am right (or the feelings deserve to be acknowledged, if nothing else). Reading what you, and everyone else, has written really tugs on my heart because you're so right. It is very painful that she isnt addressing it.. whether its "real" or not.
I think you're right that she probably thinks shes communicating better than she is. It's probably partly my fault - I come across (especially in therapy) as very competent, together, etc, and I cant let go of that facade, even though I can verbally tell her its a mask. So maybe she thinks that I just know? I dont know.
When I mention responses I think would help me from her, shes always thanks me for telling her and seems to take note. I think shes probably forgetting sometimes. I know she also seems to believe that I'm getting closer to where I need to be, and even though I've told her I disagree, she still seems to believe it. I think she just doesnt get that this isnt working so maybe shes sort of blinded by that? I dont know. They arent explicit like "use these exact words".. more like "ive noticed that I use these three words all the time because they keep things intellectual, but if you use these specific words (hurt or sad rather than upset, for instance) it kicks in the emotions more." Things like that.
I thought about showing her the post.. but I dont know. What would make her get it now any more than the other times I've told her? I'm past the point of being upset every time it happens.. I guess I've come to expect it recently. I just keep hoping that one day it'll change. But the responses from you all is giving me a little motivation to talk to her about it again this tues. We'll see.
Posted by wishingstar on March 12, 2006, at 22:27:14
In reply to Re: tranference or real feelings?, posted by wishingstar on March 12, 2006, at 22:26:12
Posted by wishingstar on March 12, 2006, at 22:49:57
In reply to I wish I could send you my therapist » wishingstar, posted by Racer on March 11, 2006, at 21:32:58
Grrr i just typed out a long response to you and messed up and I think I deleted it. I'll rewrite it tomorrow evening when I get home. Just wanted to let you know. Stupid computers! :)
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