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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
In most ways my session today was pretty good. I talked about lots of stuff that I hate talking about. He was his usual encouraging self. He was careful and sensitive.
BUT… I was finding it pretty hard going. And at one point, when we were talking about faith, I asked him, “Are you religious?” And he said something like, “I don’t think it’s helpful to tell you my perspectives on things.” And I said, “Oh right; OK,” and we carried on.
I wasn’t at all distressed that he didn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask out of any burning desire to know; it simply crossed my mind at that moment. And of course his answer came as no surprise to me.
But I was stunned at my reaction to his answer. I spent the rest of the session trying not to cry. I’m pretty sure I asked him the question just in order to feel that trusting him was the right thing to do; I wanted to feel more connected to him because I was feeling pretty freaked out by the words that were coming out of my mouth. But instead he pushed me away.
I wish he’d heard what I was really asking. I wish he’d asked me why I wanted to know, so I could have said, “I don’t really have an urgent need to know; I’m just feeling curious about you because I'm telling you so much about myself and I don't know anything about you.”
But I don’t know how to ask for what I really want. I don’t know how to stay feeling safe and connected when I start getting really freaked out. And when I feel as if I want to reach out to him, hoping he’ll steady me (metaphorically), he seems to withdraw.
I came home and cut my arms, and then I cut my breasts for the first time. I’ve been wanting to cut my breasts for ages. In fact, I’d like to cut them off completely.
Why can’t I just tell him I want to stay connected to him? That’s not outrageous, is it? But… what if he refuses? What will I cut then?
How did I get so repulsive?
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 9:40:31
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
Tamar. You need to tell him what you're feeling *as* you're feeling it.
I'm the same way. I get upset at something in session, and come home and take it out on myself. Or call him hysterically and accuse him of having bad feelings about me.
I've learned I *have* to do a stream of consciousness about those things.
So last time when he stood up to stretch and moved to the chair that was five feet further away from me, I sat upset for a few minutes then said "You got up and moved away from me! That hurts, I feel rejected! Am I too close?" And we discussed the whole thing right there. It still hurt afterwards but not bad enough to hurt myself.
You can't let therapy be another source of pain to you Tamar. You have too many others right now. Believe me I understand. I really really do. It was hard as heck to start doing this. But it does help.
I'm sorry to put my hands on my hips with you. But I care about you and don't like to see you hurt, even by yourself. Is it ok to give you a cyberhug?
((((((Tamar))))))
Posted by Annierose on February 24, 2006, at 12:17:12
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS » Tamar, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 9:40:31
Tamar -
I wished I knew what to say. I'm sad that you hurt yourself. Your body is beautiful. It is your vessel.It is hard to speak up at those moments. I think most of us on this board have experienced that type of hurt during a therapy session. Dinah is right. If you can summon the courage to say what you are thinking right at that moment, he'd be able to address the issue right then and there. But I also know you were doing the best you could today. You have just started to feel the connection again and you need to trust him. I hope you get there soon. You deserve to feel happier.
I'm sorry you are feeling sad.
Annie
Posted by B2chica on February 24, 2006, at 13:02:51
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
i think you got your message across very well in what you just wrote. maybe take those words to your T. this must be terrifying for you. if it's to terrifying there's nothing saying you absoultely have to tell your T now. maybe talk around the subject if you can, or write it down first. only when you can Tamar, only when you can.
i'm sorry you felt so bad you had to SI. please take care of your wounds. your body has been hurt enough, believe me i know how much self-hatred can run through ones veins when wanting to SI and i only want to say i wish i could hold your hand at those moments.
it's so hard not to act on those feelings. you must have been doing sometype of coping skill that you've managed to only now cut your breasts. think back to what held you back before.
i know once i found a new spot, it's SO easy to continue...i can only hope this is not true for you and i hope you don't harm yourself. you deserved to be loved and cared for inside AND out.cares
b2c.
Posted by Voce on February 24, 2006, at 15:47:49
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
Tamar, I'm so so sorry. It's hard enough when we're in the session and the T is saying the RIGHT responses to our questions, but then when they mess up and we can't take care of ourselves...well...that can feel so terrible. He could have used that question so artfully to get to the question behind the question, but he didn't. I guess we can't fault him TOO much because he's human but he should've known better.
I agree with Dinah on this, I thought her post was right on. Everything is hurting you right now and therapy shouldn't be one of those things that hurts.
I hope you don't hurt yourself any more. :-(
VoceP.S. Does the desire to cut off your breasts have something to do with age states? Like, you don't want to be a woman, you just want to be a kid and be safe and not deal with the scariness of adulthood?
Posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2006, at 16:05:28
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
I don't have a lot of answers, but I wanted to let you know that I was talking about the need for connection with my T yesterday. It always makes me cry to think about it or talk about it. And I can't put into words just exactly why. All I know is I said I didn't want to skip this week (I've been really sick), even though I know I have a standing appt. on Mondays. I said that I didn't like going more than a week between sessions, while at the same time saying I didn't feel like doing therapy because I felt so lousy. Logically, it didn't make sense. But I just really felt the need to maintain connection with him. And it's a hard feeling for me to directly address. I try to protect myself from it, and I don't exactly know why. I did ALOT of talking around it yesterday.
All that just to say, I think I understand a bit of what you were hoping/reaching for. It's a very normal wish. There's nothing wrong with it. And it really DOES hurt when you reach out and aren't met halfway. Or at least partway.
I hope you can share this with him. And I wish you speedy healing for your wounds. All of them.
gg
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 17:37:40
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS » Tamar, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 9:40:31
> Tamar. You need to tell him what you're feeling *as* you're feeling it.
Yeah. You’re right. I need to start identifying when I feel hurt, because my first reaction is to pretend everything is fine; I almost convince myself…
> I'm the same way. I get upset at something in session, and come home and take it out on myself. Or call him hysterically and accuse him of having bad feelings about me.
>
> I've learned I *have* to do a stream of consciousness about those things.Good idea. I found the last couple of sessions I was able to say when I felt uncomfortable talking about something, but admitting to being hurt is so very contrary to my usual way of talking…
> So last time when he stood up to stretch and moved to the chair that was five feet further away from me, I sat upset for a few minutes then said "You got up and moved away from me! That hurts, I feel rejected! Am I too close?" And we discussed the whole thing right there. It still hurt afterwards but not bad enough to hurt myself.
It’s good that you could say that. Yeah, I’d have felt hurt as well.
> You can't let therapy be another source of pain to you Tamar. You have too many others right now. Believe me I understand. I really really do. It was hard as heck to start doing this. But it does help.
You’re right… although I don’t know if therapy itself is a source of pain. I tend to assume my pain is transferential. And yes, it was hard to go back, but you’re right; it does help.
> I'm sorry to put my hands on my hips with you. But I care about you and don't like to see you hurt, even by yourself. Is it ok to give you a cyberhug?
Thanks Dinah! Cyberhugs are great. Here’s one for you too: (((((Dinah)))))
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 17:43:56
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS, posted by Annierose on February 24, 2006, at 12:17:12
> Tamar -
> I wished I knew what to say. I'm sad that you hurt yourself. Your body is beautiful. It is your vessel.Thanks Annierose. It’s so nice to hear that.
> It is hard to speak up at those moments. I think most of us on this board have experienced that type of hurt during a therapy session. Dinah is right. If you can summon the courage to say what you are thinking right at that moment, he'd be able to address the issue right then and there. But I also know you were doing the best you could today. You have just started to feel the connection again and you need to trust him. I hope you get there soon. You deserve to feel happier.
Yeah, I’d like to trust him. And it’s so hard when he seems to push me away. I feel as if he’s trying to avoid my transference. I’ve tried to talk about it so many times and he always closes it down. I may have to resort to desperate measures…
> I'm sorry you are feeling sad.
> AnnieThanks again Annie. It’s good to know you care.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 17:59:05
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS, posted by B2chica on February 24, 2006, at 13:02:51
> i think you got your message across very well in what you just wrote. maybe take those words to your T. this must be terrifying for you. if it's to terrifying there's nothing saying you absoultely have to tell your T now. maybe talk around the subject if you can, or write it down first. only when you can Tamar, only when you can.
I’d love to take my post to him but I worry he’d freak out or tell me it was inappropriate… Rationally I’m pretty sure he can hear it, but emotionally I’m terrified. But I want so much to tell him how important the connection is to me. And you’re right: it’s only when I can…
> i'm sorry you felt so bad you had to SI. please take care of your wounds. your body has been hurt enough, believe me i know how much self-hatred can run through ones veins when wanting to SI and i only want to say i wish i could hold your hand at those moments.
Yeah; it’s amazing how much I can hate myself and yet how much better I feel after I SI. Thanks for saying the thing about holding my hand. That sounds very nice…
> it's so hard not to act on those feelings. you must have been doing sometype of coping skill that you've managed to only now cut your breasts. think back to what held you back before.
I think what held me back before was the fear that if I cut my breasts I’d do almost anything. And I don’t know where I go from here. Maybe I’ve broken a kind of taboo; but maybe that’s a good thing. I dunno…
> i know once i found a new spot, it's SO easy to continue...i can only hope this is not true for you and i hope you don't harm yourself. you deserved to be loved and cared for inside AND out.
Ah yes, the new spot thing. I want to do it constantly. I’m watching endless Friends videos with my six year-old so that I don’t reach for the knife.
Being loved and cared for inside and out sounds like a wonderful dream. I’d like that so much. And yet, I know rationally that many people love me. Maybe I just want EVERYONE to love me. Ahhh…
Thanks, B2C.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 18:16:31
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » Tamar, posted by Voce on February 24, 2006, at 15:47:49
> Tamar, I'm so so sorry. It's hard enough when we're in the session and the T is saying the RIGHT responses to our questions, but then when they mess up and we can't take care of ourselves...well...that can feel so terrible. He could have used that question so artfully to get to the question behind the question, but he didn't. I guess we can't fault him TOO much because he's human but he should've known better.
Either that, or he’s working from a theoretical perspective in which transference isn’t discussed… I *hate* that. Yeah, he could have got behind the question, but I don’t think he wanted to. And maybe it’s for reasons that are professional rather than personal, but I don’t think I can feel the difference.
> I agree with Dinah on this, I thought her post was right on. Everything is hurting you right now and therapy shouldn't be one of those things that hurts.
That’s true. Dinah’s very clever! And so are you… Yeah, I don’t want therapy to hurt.
> I hope you don't hurt yourself any more. :-(
> Voce
>
> P.S. Does the desire to cut off your breasts have something to do with age states? Like, you don't want to be a woman, you just want to be a kid and be safe and not deal with the scariness of adulthood?I think you are probably onto something there. The 13 year-old doesn’t want to become a woman. I’ve talked to her quite a bit; she wants my therapist to be a father-figure as well as a lover-figure and she wants his permission to be a sexual person and for her body to change… She wants him to tell her that her teenage body is adorable; that having tiny breasts is sweet and that having only six pubic hairs is kinda cute. She wants him to be a little bit attracted to her, but in a safe and sensitive way. Ah, I love my fantasies…
Posted by Daisym on February 24, 2006, at 18:17:31
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
I want to ask you to please not hurt yourself but I do understand the urges and the release.
I think I'm like you; When I get sideswiped I go into automatic "it's fine" mode and really work hard to keep the other person from knowing how I'm feeling. I think I'm embarrassed to be having a strong reaction, even in therapy. And I have a need to carefully look at something privately before I share my feelings and reactions. So stream of consciousness is really hard for me.
However, I do make it a point to try to take back to therapy my thought process and how I felt initially, what I think happened and why. It is important to be honest, even if it is uncomfortable. And even if you can't do it in the moment.
I do understand that standard "I don't think it is helpful to you if I tell you that" answer. But I always want to answer, "I trust you with some really personal things...you can trust me with this." And when I don't get an answer, I'm mortified that I even asked. I feel like I broke a rule, I stepped over the line and God forbid, I made him uncomfortable somehow. I hate that feeling! Feels like I get an F in therapy that day.
*sigh* ((((Tamar)))) Feel better soon. I'm glad you posted today.
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 18:44:09
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » Tamar, posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2006, at 16:05:28
> I don't have a lot of answers, but I wanted to let you know that I was talking about the need for connection with my T yesterday. It always makes me cry to think about it or talk about it. And I can't put into words just exactly why. All I know is I said I didn't want to skip this week (I've been really sick), even though I know I have a standing appt. on Mondays. I said that I didn't like going more than a week between sessions, while at the same time saying I didn't feel like doing therapy because I felt so lousy. Logically, it didn't make sense. But I just really felt the need to maintain connection with him. And it's a hard feeling for me to directly address. I try to protect myself from it, and I don't exactly know why. I did ALOT of talking around it yesterday.
It’s hard, isn’t it? Maybe protecting ourselves is an inevitable attempt to protect ourselves from being hurt. But I reckon there is no way to avoid being hurt in therapy. I want to ask my T how and when and where exactly he plans to hurt me…
> All that just to say, I think I understand a bit of what you were hoping/reaching for. It's a very normal wish. There's nothing wrong with it. And it really DOES hurt when you reach out and aren't met halfway. Or at least partway.
Yeah… partway would be enough…
> I hope you can share this with him. And I wish you speedy healing for your wounds. All of them.
Thanks GG!
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 19:45:50
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS » Dinah, posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 17:37:40
I *do* know it's not easy. Especially since I know there's a strong bias in your area of the world towards CBT rather than transference based therapies.
I just hate to see you hurt, that's all. It's ok for me of course. But I hate to see it in anyone else, especially someone as terrific as you are.
Posted by sleepygirl on February 25, 2006, at 0:34:22
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
oh Tamar...you're certainly not repulsive
I'm sorry you're hurting
-sleepygirl
Posted by Tamar on February 25, 2006, at 10:13:15
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » Tamar, posted by Daisym on February 24, 2006, at 18:17:31
> I want to ask you to please not hurt yourself but I do understand the urges and the release.
I wanted to hurt myself again today but I was able to resist. It wasn’t easy; the urges were strong, and also my legs don’t match and I wanted to get them looking the same (I think I’m completely nuts!). But I’ve decided my legs don’t need to match; maybe I’ll wear odd socks too!
> I think I'm like you; When I get sideswiped I go into automatic "it's fine" mode and really work hard to keep the other person from knowing how I'm feeling. I think I'm embarrassed to be having a strong reaction, even in therapy. And I have a need to carefully look at something privately before I share my feelings and reactions. So stream of consciousness is really hard for me.
Yeah! I’m very embarrassed to have a strong reaction, especially if I feel hurt. I worry if I show I’m hurt people will know how to hurt me again. Being able to hide my hurt feels like some kind of survival instinct.
> However, I do make it a point to try to take back to therapy my thought process and how I felt initially, what I think happened and why. It is important to be honest, even if it is uncomfortable. And even if you can't do it in the moment.
Yes. I HAVE to talk about this next session because I can’t bear for it to happen again. And I always had a kind of agreement with myself that I wouldn’t cut my breasts, because I figured if I allow myself to cut my breasts I don’t know where I’ll stop. So I think this was (for me) an indication that some of my feelings really are intolerable. I’m pretty sure that my therapist’s theoretical orientation involves keeping transference out of therapy, but he’ll just have to deal with it because I can’t handle it by myself any more. I know this cutting was hugely transferential; I know it’s about my father, and I know it’s about rejection. But knowing isn’t enough any more…
> I do understand that standard "I don't think it is helpful to you if I tell you that" answer. But I always want to answer, "I trust you with some really personal things...you can trust me with this." And when I don't get an answer, I'm mortified that I even asked. I feel like I broke a rule, I stepped over the line and God forbid, I made him uncomfortable somehow. I hate that feeling! Feels like I get an F in therapy that day.
An F in therapy: yeah, that’s it exactly. I feel like I’m doing it wrong. I want a guidebook or a map or something. And I’d really like the forbidden territory to be marked with some bright colour so I don’t go there by accident. I don’t like being kicked out.
> *sigh* ((((Tamar)))) Feel better soon. I'm glad you posted today.
Thanks Daisy. I’m glad I posted too! I don’t know what I’d do without Babblers…
Posted by Tamar on February 25, 2006, at 10:16:07
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS » Tamar, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 19:45:50
> I *do* know it's not easy. Especially since I know there's a strong bias in your area of the world towards CBT rather than transference based therapies.
Quite! (Grrrrr...)
> I just hate to see you hurt, that's all. It's ok for me of course. But I hate to see it in anyone else, especially someone as terrific as you are.
It's strange, isn't it? I feel that it's OK for me to cut, but I hate to think of you hurting yourself because you're so wonderful.
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by Tamar on February 25, 2006, at 10:17:07
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » Tamar, posted by sleepygirl on February 25, 2006, at 0:34:22
> oh Tamar...you're certainly not repulsive
> I'm sorry you're hurting
> -sleepygirlThanks for your kind words, sleepygirl.
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on February 25, 2006, at 22:21:14
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » sleepygirl, posted by Tamar on February 25, 2006, at 10:17:07
I have been trying to come up with something helpful to say (like you always do for me), but I don't know what to say. All I do know is that I am so sorry you are in so much pain. It sounds really scary to me. When is your next appointment? Please take care of yourself. I wish I could magically make all the pain go away for you. You are truely a wonderful women who helps so many, I hope someday to be like you. :-)
Posted by caraher on February 26, 2006, at 17:56:35
In reply to (((((Tamar)))))), posted by happyflower on February 25, 2006, at 22:21:14
I'll echo the sentiment: you are NOT repulsive! And I'll echo the wish for a speedy recover from ALL your wounds as well
Posted by fairywings on February 28, 2006, at 23:30:17
In reply to Re: I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS) » Daisym, posted by Tamar on February 25, 2006, at 10:13:15
> I wanted to hurt myself again today but I was able to resist. It wasn’t easy; the urges were strong, and also my legs don’t match and I wanted to get them looking the same (I think I’m completely nuts!). But I’ve decided my legs don’t need to match; maybe I’ll wear odd socks too!Oh please don't do this! I did it to my arms bec. they didn't match, now I regret it. I'm sorry you took that next step in cutting your breasts. I"m sure they are beautiful and are begging you not to hurt them.
Doesn't hurt turn into anger, and anger not expressed turns inward, and then to depression....seems I've read that somewhere. Probably here just don't remember.
Can you ask your T how he feels about transference? Do you see your T as a father figure? Would you be able to tell him that? Never know he might surprise you.
I hope it feels better soon,
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by orchid on March 6, 2006, at 20:14:09
In reply to I’ve changed my mind: it’s too scary (TRIGGERS), posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 9:27:58
I am very sorry you are hurting so bad. I actually originally thought it is a very bad idea to go back to the same T towards whom you had intense transference. Later I came to think maybe it will be ok for you, but now I changed my mind again. Would you consider going to a female T? I really think it would help you a lot more and much less of this heart break. It will get really difficult for you to handle if your transference comes back in full force again - now that you are cutting. I was actually really quite surprised that after reading babble and seeing the hardships of everyone, you chose to go back to your T again. Why put yourself in transference knowingly? I think with every pull back from him, you will hurt even more.
Please take care of yourself. I care quite a bit about you, and it is really heart breaking to see you hurting so much. I am sorry I can't help you more these days, since I don't have a connection. (I am in the US right now, staying in a hotel and will be here for a month or so and the hotel internet connection is awfully bad).
This is the end of the thread.
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