Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 569404

Shown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Do I have to go back?

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

I know the answer. Yes. And even worse, talk to her about it. But that seems so grown up and I don't want to be grown up about it. Sulking.

I scheduled an additional session this week (total of 4) since I had spent the previous 4 day weekend with my parents, sibling + spouses, celebrating my father's birthday. I figured I may need additional support.

I have left all 3 sessions this week totally confused. Well, I left today's session angry. Yesterday I realized the confusion part. She was suggesting I try a different approach in talking with my father, if that would make me feel differently. I felt I was hearing mixed messages --- don't talk with your father vs. it must be your fault, try a different approach.

I began today's session talking about the mixed messages and gave her an example. I said, "Imagine your daughter is dating the class president, merit scholar. You find him charming and intelligent; he's successful. After a few months your daughter tells you that he is verbally abusive to her. Would you tell her, 'he's so smart, accomplished, he's not retarded (those were her exact words describing my father the previous session) that why don't you try talking to him, maybe you can work this out.' NO, you would not give her that advice. You would tell her to walk away, and fast." She paused and went into more psychobabble defending her position, but at the same time acknowledging that I was upset, that she doesn't care about my father, that I am the one she cares about, and she was wondering if I spoke to my father without anger, if I would feel better. She even went on to give me this "death bed" scenario --- PLEASE! Seriously, that put me over.

I let her know that I was feeling defensive and hostile, and I hated feeling that way. She didn't seem to be able to get through to me. I just got more enraged. She let a long silence go by, maybe 10 minutes, and then said, "I'm afraid our time is up." I stood up and said, "I am leaving today really angry." She asked me to repeat myself, and then I left. I went into the bathroom and noticed I had broken out in hives (something that used to happen in middle school when my depression started).

I guess I don't understand completely why I'm so mad. I don't know what I am going to say to her tomorrow. I really want to cancel but know that won't solve anything.

Any wise words for me?

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose

Posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 17:13:45

In reply to Do I have to go back?, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

Yes, you need to go back, and yes, you need to talk about this. At least you can see her tomorrow and not have to hold this for a long time.

I know these times are so hard - so painful. But these are the times when we make progress. So be brave and don't back away from it all. Just plow on through.

Then you can come here and cry and we'll comfort you.

I'm sorry it is hard for you.

 

Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes » Annierose

Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 17:46:12

In reply to Do I have to go back?, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

But the good news is that you have all of tonight to sulk about it, and stamp your feet if that helps.

I *hate* those long silences. Well, I'm not sure if I ever made it that long without saying something. I hate the one minute silences.

Reconciliation seems to be the psychological concept of the moment, perhaps as a backlash for the excesses of the past, and maybe she's swept along on all the new research and reports. Or maybe she just came from a different world with regards to family. I don't get it myself. I can see not carrying around hatred or anger such that it hurts *me*, but the reconciliation concept seems to go farther than that. It even seems to go so far as to put the reconciler back in a vulnerable position. I can't quite grasp the value of that.

It's interesting that she made you repeat your statement. Maybe it will open up a more productive session tomorrow.

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose

Posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 18:10:20

In reply to Do I have to go back?, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

I only know why I get mad...I don't want to be the reasonable one, the one who keeps trying and the one who needs to change. I don't want to hear that the only thing I have control over is myself and my response. (I ALREADY KNOW THAT!) I want my therapist to say, "he should have said x,y or z." I want to hear, "it must be really hard for you to be around him." I'm tired to taking the high road. stomp! stomp!

And yes, you need to keep talking about this. It is really hard, because I think some part of us (again, speaking for myself) thinks if we don't find a way to 'make nice' we are being b**chy and holding a grudge. And actually protecting yourself is the wisest thing to be doing.

I hope tomorrow goes OK.

 

Maybe for another perspective?

Posted by Racer on October 20, 2005, at 18:42:00

In reply to Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose, posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 18:10:20

Let me start by saying, I'm sorry you're feeling so yucky, and hope that your feet don't get sore from stomping them. Which I highly recommend, providing you don't have nice neighbors downstairs. (If you have nasty neighbors downstairs -- well, bonus!)

I wonder if it might have to do with perspective. If you get into a routine with your father, or anyone else, where you both follow the same patterns time after time, then changing the way you talk to that person will stop that cycle. It isn't easy -- I've done it with both my mother and my aunt, so I speak from experience -- but it does change the dynamic, because they're not getting the same stimulous to respond to. If you can reduce your anxiety in the moment enough, it can actually be fun, in a gleefully malicious sort of a way...

I think about the way my mother and I used to interact, and call it the Mother Daughter Dance. We were both so good at the steps that we hardly had to think about them. The only way to change that was for one of us to change our steps, and there was no way to force Mother to be the one, so my choices were to suffer through it, or be the one to change. That doesn't mean that I was the one who was wrong, by the way, although it does mean that I had to be the one who played the grownup. Which sucked.

Aside from simply changing the dynamic between you, if you take the dancing analogy and stretch it a tiny bit, by changing your steps in the dance, you will see it all from a slightly different perspective, too. That might mean that you learn to see your father in a light that makes it easier for you to accept him as he is, whether that means as a well-meaning but failing father, or as a small-minded wannabe autocrat, or whatever. (Sorry, I don't know the backstory here. Those are just what came first to mind.)

I'm sorry if I'm being the Devil's advocate here. I just wanted to put that thought out there for you. I hope it helps.

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » fallsfall

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:01:26

In reply to Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose, posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 17:13:45

I know, but I'm not sure what I'm plowing through. I'm not certain of my response. It's confusing. Now that some time has passed, I'm glad I do not have to hold onto this experience until Monday. But who knows, maybe I'll feel even worse tomorrow after my session.

 

Re: Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes » Dinah

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:09:39

In reply to Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes » Annierose, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 17:46:12

It's interesting because she has consciously made a shift in her "I wonder if ...." scenarios. My father has NEVER entered into a conversation with me my entire life. He talks "at" people, does not converse "with" anyone.

I did get the feeling that maybe someone close to her is dieing or has recently died. This is the second time within a month she has given me these "what if they die" questions. What's up with THAT?

I total agree with being put in a vulnerable position everytime I'm in the same room with my family. I am proud of myself for feeling more in control, not angry or bitter when I'm with them. My T reacted to a situation where I felt strong. She said she didn't realize that I normally just suck in all the barbs and insults they lash my way. This time, I calmly and quietly spoke back. And for that I felt good. My husband was proud.

The scenario: Last Thursday, I meet up with my parents and 4 siblings + spouses at a New York City hotel lobby. My dad hasn't seen me for about 2 months. He says, "Are you doing something different to yourself. You look pretty." What kind of sh*tty compliment is that? I reply back in a calm, controlled voice, "Maybe I've always been pretty, and you just never noticed."

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » daisym

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:14:20

In reply to Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose, posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 18:10:20

I'm not sure what I wanted her to say. All I know, she just didn't say it. She didn't seem in the room with me today. Even at one point, she asked a question that I had just answered ... that really irritated me.

I guess I feel she doesn't understand the dynamic I have painfully described to her over the last 20 months, plus previous 5 years. It's like, "Oh your father is so successful, he must be a decent person. Maybe it's YOU that has the problem." Now, of course this isn't what she said, or intended, but that is what I heard.

More than anything, I want her on my side.

 

Re: Maybe for another perspective? » Racer

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:19:36

In reply to Maybe for another perspective?, posted by Racer on October 20, 2005, at 18:42:00

Thank you Racer. I do apprepriate your reply. I think this was what my T's intention was. What my T missed (and I don't know how she missed it) is that I'm a sponge for all my family's problems. They make fun of me, they tease me, and get great pleasure seeing me upset. I don't know how to defend myself, so I usually say nothing, or walk away, or wait for my witty husband to come to my defense. However, this time, when my dad gave me a back-handed compliment, I pushed back ever so slightly. Let him know that what he said wasn't nice (see my reply to Dinah -- last paragraph). This is what started the terrible 3 miserable sessions in a row.

I want that to end. I can't keep going only to leave worse.

But I don't know what to say to my T.

 

Am I writing to myself? » Annierose

Posted by Racer on October 21, 2005, at 0:52:50

In reply to Re: Maybe for another perspective? » Racer, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:19:36

Actually, I did read your response to Dinah, and was cheering for you when I did. Good for you.

As the Designated Scapegoat in my family, I do understand what you're describing. Every so often, I stop and remind myself, "These people do not even know me. Whatever they say about me is indicates more about them than about me."

Doesn't work for me, though...

Good luck tomorrow. Let us know what happens?

 

Re: Maybe for another perspective? » Annierose

Posted by fallsfall on October 21, 2005, at 7:04:38

In reply to Re: Maybe for another perspective? » Racer, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:19:36

>Let him know that what he said wasn't nice (see my reply to Dinah -- last paragraph). This is what started the terrible 3 miserable sessions in a row.

>My T reacted to a situation where I felt strong. She said she didn't realize that I normally just suck in all the barbs and insults they lash my way.

>I guess I feel she doesn't understand the dynamic I have painfully described to her over the last 20 months, plus previous 5 years. It's like, "Oh your father is so successful, he must be a decent person. Maybe it's YOU that has the problem." Now, of course this isn't what she said, or intended, but that is what I heard.

>More than anything, I want her on my side.

>What my T missed (and I don't know how she missed it) is that I'm a sponge for all my family's problems.

Annierose,

Perhaps you are angry that your therapist hasn't understood this part of the dynamic with your family.

You think that you have explained this all before, and you don't see how she could have missed it (was she not paying attention? did she not believe you? how much of her previous advice and comments were based on this misunderstanding? how can you trust what she says if she misses something "big" like this?).

I think I'm projecting a bit. My therapist is not understanding something basic and important (and we have to talk about it today since I avoided it all session yesterday until the last 5 minutes - a little passive aggression? Tell him about it when he can't do anything about it because I have to leave?).

Shall we meet for lunch? What should we order?

(((Annierose)))

These issues are so hard, but they do pay off in a big way. Can you try to make the two of you a team who goes after this problem together? It is so hard when the person who should be helping us is the person who is causing the problem. Sometimes I can separate him into two people and talk to the therapist about the "person" who is causing me grief.

 

Re: Yes, lunch it is! » fallsfall

Posted by Annierose on October 21, 2005, at 7:30:18

In reply to Re: Maybe for another perspective? » Annierose, posted by fallsfall on October 21, 2005, at 7:04:38

Hmmmm, what do I want to order today .... It's so much easier (and cheaper) when I bring my lunch but I'm running late this morning. Seems like a soup day to me, a little bit of the fall chill in the air. Leaves are turning the most brillant colors!

My session is this morning. I'll check back around noon.

You are right, by the way. Those are the thoughts I was experiencing too. Hope we both can get back on the same page with our therapists. Otherwise, it's going to be a long weekend.

 

Re: Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes

Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2005, at 8:06:20

In reply to Re: Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes » Dinah, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 22:09:39

Hmmm... You've got a point. Something may have happened to her that has her changing her perspective. In which case she needs to sort out what's hers from what's yours.

I sort of smiled when I read your father's comment because two very different of my relatives came to mind. One was my father, who was quite capable of such statements himself. I knew he loved me dearly, so I chalked up his comments to either screaming insensitivity or his feeling sulky because he felt neglected. Either one was historically possible. But my aunt made the same sort of statements and they felt completely different coming from her. Because I knew she disapproved of me, and her statements were not resting on a basis of affection.

That made me wonder how much your therapist is looking at the relationship as a whole, as opposed to particular behaviors.

I thought it was great that you stood up to your father and pointed out what it was that he said. That's what I finally did with my aunt, though not very humourously as I recall. On the other hand, it was pretty effective long term. I don't recall, on her deathbed, feeling overly sorry that I had stood up for myself. I may have felt sorry that circumstances were such that we never had a close relationship. There are all sorts of things we could reflect on at those times, and a lifetime of never changing the way you interact, or feeling like you've allowed him to treat you badly, is one of them.

I hope that you and your therapist are able to come to an understanding today. I always hate to out of sorts with my therapist for an entire weekend.

 

Re: Yes, lunch it is! » Annierose

Posted by fallsfall on October 21, 2005, at 10:39:57

In reply to Re: Yes, lunch it is! » fallsfall, posted by Annierose on October 21, 2005, at 7:30:18

I won't have time to get soup before I have to go to work (noon) - partly because I spent 45 minutes after my appointment sitting/sleeping in my car. There is a sub place two doors down from work that sells soup. I'll get some to eat at my desk while I work. And I'll think of you.

It is going to be a long weekend.

Hoping yours will be shorter than mine...
Falls.

 

Re: My session » fallsfall

Posted by annierose on October 21, 2005, at 11:32:42

In reply to Re: Yes, lunch it is! » Annierose, posted by fallsfall on October 21, 2005, at 10:39:57

Falls -

Do you want to share what is going on? I'm sorry that you didn't leave feeling connected. I do know how that feels. Yucky! :-( I'm a good listener.

I felt happy that as soon as I layed down, she asked, "so why were you so angry yesterday?". I'm glad she didn't wait for me to start. We went over the 3 previous sessions and I pointed out different verbal exchanges and she explained her part, what she was trying to get at. I can't remember it all, except for one point. She felt she got ahead of heself in our theraputic relationship. That I really need to stop coming from a place of fear when I interact with people. That "we have more work to do" with that. Silly me likes hearing I have more work in a certain area so I can stick around awhile longer .... That rang true for me, the fear part. When I see my family, I am fearful ... what are they going to say, how am I going to defend myself. My T pointed out that I must feel immobilized (true) and she thought that I must present myself differently from what I feel. True again.

I feel she did think about the week. She did her homework and helped me understand where she was coming from. Again she let me know that I was her concern, not my father's feelings. She touched a little on death and grandparenting .... made some interesting points. As a grandparent, it is the time to get it "right", and my parents demostrate over and over again that they pay little attention to my children.

I mentioned that her frame of reference for how a family interacts is vastly different than my experience as "normal".

Near the end, I asked her how much time was left .... 9 minutes. So I thought it was just the perfect amount of time to start sharing my daydreams, and I was brave enough to share one about her. Thought about my babble friends, that the hardest moments can be the most productive.

Sorry I'm rambling, repeating thoughts. I'm at work and keep getting interrupted. Back to the grind. I feel better. I wish you did too.

((((( FALLS)))))))))

 

Re: Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes » Dinah

Posted by annierose on October 21, 2005, at 11:39:13

In reply to Re: Unfortunately, and very fortunately, yes, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2005, at 8:06:20

Relationships operated on so many levels, that sometimes it's hard enough for me to understand what is actually going on. So a part of me actually seems "surprised" everytime my family needs to criticize some part of my life or my body.

Of the five children, my T likes to point out, I fared the best. Three of my siblings are extremely dependent on my parents --- still --- in their 40's and 50's.

Who knows what I will feel when my parents die? I am not close to them, but it's the "hope" part that my T thinks trips me up, even though rationally, I know, they will never change.

 

Re: My session » annierose

Posted by Tamar on October 21, 2005, at 15:09:35

In reply to Re: My session » fallsfall, posted by annierose on October 21, 2005, at 11:32:42

Hi Annierose,

I'm glad your therapist was able to explain some of the stuff she said, and that you feel better after the session. From what you said, it sounded as though she was able to make some sense out of it all. I like that she let you know that she was concerned about you rather than about your father's feelings.

How did the daydream sharing go? Was she understanding?

Tamar

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose

Posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 15:36:06

In reply to Do I have to go back?, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

> I have left all 3 sessions this week totally confused. Well, I left today's session angry. Yesterday I realized the confusion part. She was suggesting I try a different approach in talking with my father, if that would make me feel differently. I felt I was hearing mixed messages --- don't talk with your father vs. it must be your fault, try a different approach.

I don't agree with her advice to talk to your father (even if it's a deathbed thing) considering how you feel about the whole thing, and I don't know why she'd suggest it.

I agree you should talk to her tomorrow, but your anger is justified. You have every right to be angry. I don't think her position would be defensible unless you'd expressed some regrets about not talking to your dad, then she might encourage a different approach, but that's not the case.

Considering what she said aobut your dad not being retarded etc.., and her response to your example using her daughter in your place(which was very good btw), she might as well be doing therapy with your dad. She's not though, she's your T, and it's incredible to me that, even after she said you're the one she cares about, she went back to her original position.

I think I'd get my thoughts together, and tell her again how what she said was so unthoughtful and hurtful, and not let her continue to let you feel you're wrong, you're not. She's wrong, and what she did stinks.
fw


 

Re: My session » Tamar

Posted by Annierose on October 21, 2005, at 15:37:43

In reply to Re: My session » annierose, posted by Tamar on October 21, 2005, at 15:09:35

Hi Tamar -

Are you proud of me for starting this conversation? You personally know how I am struggling --- but I haven't gotten all of it out yet.

But I was brave. After she told me how much time I had left, I said, "I want to get back to our conversation on daydreams and fantasies." I think I heard her turn to a new sheet of paper to start writing notes. And of course, when I mentioned her husband in the daydream (not a sexual situation at all --- a dinner party) that perked her ears up even more. I surprised myself. As we only had 9 minutes (thankfully), she was understanding and interested in these thoughts of mine, without making me feel uncomfortable. And then she asked a typical psychologist question, "if I met you at a dinner party, why wouldn't I like you?". I told her I hated that question. I'd rather her tell me why she would like me. Then she asked, "if I lived on your block, would we like each other?" (or something like that). If we didn't have this prior relationship, I think she would like me the more she got to know me. She's more conversative than I. But she has a good sense of humor, she's smart, a working mom, etc. etc. ... I would like her.

And so it goes ...

But as you know, there is more to share.

 

Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose

Posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 15:50:27

In reply to Do I have to go back?, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 16:28:28

Hi Annie,

Another thought occured to me. It seems from what you've posted before that sometimes your T makes some statements that are kind of "off", and she can't see that they're inappropriate. Like when you had the dinner party and showed her pictures.

And then, I'm not sure how it went afterwards, but she made a comment about how hard it is for your parents because they try to avoid reality.

Even though she's been a wonderful T, and has helped you a lot, it seems she has trouble seeing and admitting her own mistakes. She made one this time, obviously from your reaction, which I think should be her primary concern. Maybe that's her issue, and she needs to take a look at it?

I hope I didn't offend.
fw

 

Re: My session » Annierose

Posted by Tamar on October 21, 2005, at 17:10:45

In reply to Re: My session » Tamar, posted by Annierose on October 21, 2005, at 15:37:43

> Are you proud of me for starting this conversation? You personally know how I am struggling --- but I haven't gotten all of it out yet.

Oh yeah! Very proud of you!

> But I was brave.

You certainly were. Good for you!

> After she told me how much time I had left, I said, "I want to get back to our conversation on daydreams and fantasies." I think I heard her turn to a new sheet of paper to start writing notes. And of course, when I mentioned her husband in the daydream (not a sexual situation at all --- a dinner party) that perked her ears up even more. I surprised myself. As we only had 9 minutes (thankfully), she was understanding and interested in these thoughts of mine, without making me feel uncomfortable. And then she asked a typical psychologist question, "if I met you at a dinner party, why wouldn't I like you?". I told her I hated that question.

I’d have hated that question too. Maybe she thinks you have low self esteem and you tend to think people will dislike you? (I can’t imagine anyone disliking you… but self esteem isn’t always a rational thing…)

> I'd rather her tell me why she would like me. Then she asked, "if I lived on your block, would we like each other?" (or something like that). If we didn't have this prior relationship, I think she would like me the more she got to know me. She's more conversative than I. But she has a good sense of humor, she's smart, a working mom, etc. etc. ... I would like her.

She sounds very likeable!

> But as you know, there is more to share.

Well, as Scarlett O’Hara said, tomorrow is another day!

Well done, Annierose. And I’m glad she’s being understanding!

Tamar


 

Re: Do I have to go back? » fairywings

Posted by Annierose on October 21, 2005, at 20:54:01

In reply to Re: Do I have to go back? » Annierose, posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 15:50:27

Hi FW -
You may have missed the dates on my posts, as I have already had my session where we talked about my feelings, and why I was angry. It did go well. Thank you for asking and giving me your thoughts.

In my reply to Dinah, I explained more in-depth her thinking on the subject. And I do understand where she was coming from. She is right. I do approach people with fear ... afraid they will reject me, not like me, etc.

I see my T 3x per week. So I probably experience more intense feelings with her ... project a lot of stuff her way. I do think we have an incredible working relationship. These bumps along the road throw me for a loop when they happen, but like all relationships, misunderstandings arise, and it is up to the two of us to work it out. And the wonderful thing about therapy, I actually have the opportunity with someone who is also vested in the relationship to talk the problem through. I don't know this to be a fact, but I think the increase frequency of our sessions probably increases the intensity in which I experience therapy (as least it feels that way).

She does admit to her mistakes. She does own her part in this relationship. And you did not offend me in any which way. It's always good to read different points of view.

Thanks again. I always like reading what you have to say.


This is the end of the thread.


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.