Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 568567

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

When you react with pain to your T

Posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

Last week, I had a reaction to something my T said -- just tightened up inside myself, in pain and fear and huge waves of shame -- and although we talked a little about it, I'm still bothered by it. I don't know quite what I'm hoping for by posting this, but I figure whatever I do get will be good, so....

We were talking about The Nightmare from last year, of that agency from [warm climate], and something that was going on when I first found Babble way back when that was very similar. Both situations involved getting 'treatment' through the counties while I was uninsured. After I told her about something that happened way back when, she said something like, "You're like a magnet for this sort of thing. I find myself thinking it's unbelieveable -- I do believe you, because I've seen what county systems can be like. I find myself wanting to cure what was done to you." Now, while I had a little blip of reaction to the part about "unbelieveable," what really sent me over the edge was that part about me being a magnet for it...

Now, that does echo what I heard throughout my childhood, that I was the one at fault, since I attracted the bad things. But beyond that, there was a huge wave of shame that it was true -- that it was my fault, that somehow I attracted the bad things that went on around me, that I was a kind of poison, etc. It goes back to the "professional victim" thing that always rides me -- 'gotta pretend it doesn't bother me, because to admit that something hurts, or that I wasn't responsible for it happening to me, would be to place myself in the role of a Professional Victim.' Does that make any sort of sense?

It's funny what sorts of memories that brings up for me, too. Like the time I had just stepped off the curb to cross the street -- with the green light -- and was knocked down by a kid on a bicycle. I felt guilty! It only occured to me much, much later that he really was at fault, and that I should have gotten his info to pay for cleaning the silk suit I was wearing. {shakes head} That's a typical Racer Reaction to the world, by the way. Although I joke about it, I have a huge amount of anxiety and guilt and shame about bad things that have happened to me. There's still a significant part of me that blames myself for my molestation -- if I hadn't avoided it all together, at least I should have been able to fight him off, if I hadn't been so weak because I was lazy...

Anyway, what do you do when you have that sort of tidal wave of pain over something like that? My T tried to remind me that it really wasn't my fault, that it was OK for me to accept the sympathy without making myself 'wrong' or a 'PV' but it doesn't really sink in.

(By the way, I did tell her what I felt. I'm not writing this instead of talking about it in there -- so I've moved ahead a good deal with this T.)

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by gardenergirl on October 18, 2005, at 23:12:32

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

Way to steal our thunder by telling us you already talked about it! :)

I think that word, "unbelievable" is a tough word. Because it does communicate that something extraordinary happened. And I don't think most of want to believe that what happened to you with that agency from (warm climate with pointy eared leader) could do that. But I also get that it triggers the "no one believes me so I must be mistaken, etc" thing.

I'm glad you talked about it. Maybe it needs a bit more time to process in next session?

And about dealing with the pain...well...I'm a crier. I just fight the sobs, and get that tight throat and chest feeling. Maybe because I've cried my way through countless sessions with my T by now (lord, I dont' even want to think about the Kleenex bill!), it's not so hard to let it come into the room?

Take care. It's good that this stuff happens in session, too, so you can deal with it with good support and good boundaries. Even though it hurts. :(

gg

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by daisym on October 19, 2005, at 0:59:50

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

Anyway, what do you do when you have that sort of tidal wave of pain over something like that? My T tried to remind me that it really wasn't my fault, that it was OK for me to accept the sympathy without making myself 'wrong' or a 'PV' but it doesn't really sink in.

Initially I clam up. Well, actually I nod and agree and say something stupid and benign and try to ignore the shock going on in my head. I usually want to bolt so I can sort out my feelings and figure out how to hide them in private. I know exactly what you mean by the "magnet" for stuff -- when we look at how I've re-enacted a number of things my therapist describes it as "uncanny." That makes me feel so foolish, almost like I should have been able to prevent it somehow.

The other thing that kicks in for me when my therapist touches a really sore spot is my need to protect him from my reaction. I don't want to him to feel bad because he made me feel bad. (Did you follow that?) Because I don't think I should feel bad, I think I'm being too sensitive or childish. And the cardinal rule growing up was to never cause discomfort to another person -- and that included calling them on their mistakes.

*sigh* I sometimes wonder if some of this isn't left over need to control things. And if we can take hold of our pain, own it, and not attribute it to someone else causing it, we maintain our illusion of being in control of things. All things.

I'm glad you are talking to her about this. It is hard but worth it.

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by B2chica on October 19, 2005, at 9:34:15

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

((((((racer))))))))
i'm sorry to hear all these strong feelings (that are disturbing you). but daisy is right,i too am glad you are talking about it.

unfortunatly i don't have words of wisdom cuz i'm very similar in that i feel guilty for what happened to me. i feel stupid, blaming myself. like as if i wanted it cuz i didn't stop it. this causes so much pain inside it's sometimes unbearable.

1. know your not alone.
2. know you are NOT at fault no matter what you have trained yourself to believe.
3. keep talking about it until You can take control over IT.

best wishes.
b2c.

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by Dinah on October 19, 2005, at 11:13:16

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

I'm glad you were able to tell her about how you feel. Did she respond in a trust inspiring way?

I think those misunderstandings can actually be good for a therapeutic relationship if you mention it and they respond well. It shows that people can respond differently than the people in your life traditionally have, and hopefully with time you generalize that into taking risks with others, as risks with your therapist pay off.

I think I might have had the same reaction to what she said, although I'm sure she didn't mean it that way. But I also would have mentioned it right away (or perhaps after a short period of sulking, I'm not always as mature as I might be), and allowed for repair.

 

I guess it comes down to responsibility...

Posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 14:33:40

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

I think Daisy had a point, about taking responsibility meaning that we had control -- in some sick way. There's also the thing about other people forcing responsibility onto us, like my boyfriend in college who told me that I was awful, because I 'made' him hit me. (Uh, guess I should mention that he hit me twice -- once during the period that led to our breakup, then on the day he found me trying to leave him. Yeah, somehow thought that hitting me gave me incentive to stay, huh?)

Last year, during my Nightmare, one of the case managers had a conversation with me that started with me asking him when it was appropriate for me to call him. He responded with a talk about how calling him would probably make me dependent on him, and therefore stop me from depending on myself, so it probably wasn't appropriate to call him at all... Of course, that led to my usual, 'oh, I can't ask for help from anywhere, because the asking will be worse than the not asking, and there won't be any help anyway...'

So, I'm rambling here. Let me try to wrap this up.

I heard most of my life that I had to be strong enough to protect myself; that no one else had any responsibility for my feelings; that if I felt bad, it was because I wasn't doing enough to avoid feeling bad; etc. Most of those things are true in context, but they're not universally true. If someone says, "Hey, Racer, you're ugly and stupid!" that person kinda does have some responsiiblity for me feeling bad, right? It's also true that, in that situation, I can take responsibility for my feelings, and remind myself that I'm neither ugly nor stupid, and I can remind myself that anyone who says such a thing is not worth worrying about getting approval from, but it's also OK to feel bad that someone would say something like that to me. Right? I think?

Anyway, that comment about me being a 'magnet' for that sort of nightmare has really thrown me for a loop. It does take me back to things like that case manager, who really knocked me off balance in a way that I still haven't recovered from. I do have a sense that I'm looking to someone else inappropriately, but I don't know when it's appropriate to ask for help, or accept help, or just turn to someone in my need. I go through the "I need something from someone -- so I'd better find a way NOT to need it, since I'm supposed to be able to care for myself."

Well, this ain't quite what I meant to write about, although it's part of it -- just not exactly put together, and I'm crying right now so won't try to fix it. I guess I'm asking about responsibility, and when and how to allow myself to need. Anyone wanna help complete some thoughts for me?

Thanks for reading. It is a warm feeling to know that I can communicate here without feeling so anxious and ashamed.

 

Re: I guess it comes down to responsibility... » Racer

Posted by daisym on October 19, 2005, at 15:07:52

In reply to I guess it comes down to responsibility..., posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 14:33:40

(((Racer)))

Let me try to channel my therapist because I have said everything you wrote a bunch of times.

He has said, "You don't think you are entitled to have needs. Having needs is dangerous, it means that someone else might have power over you, if they have what you need. The flip side is that if they can't give you what you need, they might turn this inability around to make you feel bad about indicating the need in the first place. You learned early that your needs are too big, too intrusive and very dangerous. It is better to be needed than to need. You can control situations this way." (How am I doing?)

I usually argue here that there is value in being a strong independent woman who can meet her own needs. He has two speeches here: the one about human beings needing to be interdependent, we are, after all, pack animals and the one about it internal resources and refueling. That one has the "it must be awfully lonely to be that independent" side bar.

I think moderation is probably the goal, as in most things. And I think in order to move towards the middle we first have to be allowed to need more than just the minimum life sustaining amounts. And I think we have to learn somehow, someway, to apply concepts we believe in to ourselves. For example: this idea of needing human touch and love...I KNOW that premature babies do better when we allow their parents to gently touch, cuddle and talk to them. So why do I beat myself up for having wanted, as a young child, to snuggle close to my dad? (Long, involved answer, it is a rhetorical question.) OR we know that teens do better, are more grounded when we just listen to them and let them know we care. They don't want us to solve their problems. So can't we see that therapy does just exactly that for us?

*sigh* I know the struggle, Racer. I do. I know the questions and the answers. I just don't know how to titrate the needs so that they aren't too much and aren't too little. I have a hugely hard time asking anyone for help with emotional issues. And I believe, in my secret heart of hearts, that I'm not worth people expending energy on to meet my needs, unless they get way more out of it.

Do you remember way back, when my therapist proposed an experiment? He wanted me to call him if I was hurting, or missing him or just needed to check in with him. He said if the thought crossed my mind and hung around at all, he wanted to hear from me. We even developed a code, because I didn't ever know what to say without sounding stupid. I was really worried that I would call ALL the time -- but it turned out that knowing I could, made it easier to wait. And I figured out that if I did reach out, I didn't spend hours doing that "I should call, no I shouldn't" stuff. I think the therapist you were working with missed a huge opportunity to help you balance self-reliance and partnerships. (but I think he missed a lot anyway.)

Geez, this got long. I guess you can tell it is one of the major reconstructions project that I'm working on for myself. I think the next trick is to learn who to ask for help from and how. I hope this helps, at least a little.

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by Tamar on October 19, 2005, at 19:07:33

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

For me the key word is the word ‘magnet’. I can understand why it sent you over the edge. I think there should be a list of banned words and phrases that therapists should never be allowed to utter… and suggesting that someone is a magnet for bad experiences should be somewhere near the start of the list.

I honestly don’t know why it’s so hard for people to believe that you can have one bad experience but you can’t have several (especially of the same kind). Actually, I do have a theory (I have far too many theories…): my theory is that people who don’t understand math are more likely to believe there that coincidental occurrences are actually related. So the idea is that there is some kind of internal coherence in a set of bad experiences, or some kind of significance (which isn’t really true). However, people who understand mathematical probabilities are likely to understand that the same kind of thing happening several times isn’t really unusual. I don’t think I’m explaining this very well… what I mean is that the chances of lightning striking in the same place twice (or ten times) are much higher than most people realise. And similarly, the likelihood of being repeatedly brushed aside or dismissed by people is much higher than most of us want to believe…

I am glad you talked about it with your T. I hope she thinks twice before using the m-word again!

Tamar


 

You have no idea... » Tamar

Posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 22:56:19

In reply to Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer, posted by Tamar on October 19, 2005, at 19:07:33

You have no idea how much I straightened up in my chair on reading this! I'm laughing, because you hit on a number of things I find rather funny.

There's the old Oscar Wilde line, about 'losing one parent is a tragedy -- losing both looks like carelessness.' But mostly, that thing about lightning striking twice? Uh, since lightning is attracted to specific sorts of things, if the landscape remains the same, lightning is supposed to strike pretty much the same place over, and over, and over... And every time you flip a coin, there's still a 50/50 chance of it coming up tails, no matter how many times in a row it's come up heads. Yes, I get that concept, and agree that many people don't think about it, or think about it and don't get it.

But the thing that really looped me in your post was this part:


> For me the key word is the word ‘magnet’. I can understand why it sent you over the edge. I think there should be a list of banned words and phrases that therapists should never be allowed to utter… and suggesting that someone is a magnet for bad experiences should be somewhere near the start of the list.
>

And I'm going to post again on this thread, so I won't tell you what happened today. The M word was what struck me, too, by the way. That's the part that had me cringing. Thank you for understanding that.

 

Today's installment...

Posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 23:18:33

In reply to Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer, posted by Tamar on October 19, 2005, at 19:07:33

I did bring all of this up, and we talked about it. I cringed when she responded, though, because she was apologizing for saying it! I kept saying, "NO! It's good that it came up, it taught me something, it increased the therapeutic alliance by proving to me that I trust you, and it gives us an introduction into a very, very important issue for me! It's *good* that you said it, because now we can process my reaction." So, a bit of misunderstanding there.

And we did talk about it, too. We're maybe on the way to getting somewhere. That's because I've decided I don't have to be 'fixed' on any specific schedule. (Note to Daisy: you proud of me for that one?) I can wait until next week to be perfect.

And then we talked about anxiety, which surprised me. She asked me what anxiety felt like for me, so I described it. That led to about ten minutes of discussing it -- mostly me trying to explain that no, I don't ruminate, I don't catastrophise, I don't get anxious based on thoughts. I have a very, very strong physical reaction, a heart pounding fear response. Even when it's happening, when I really and truly can't quite function, I still know that if I could stop the physical response, any psychological anxiety is easy to deal with. But stopping the physical response is difficult, and impossible once it starts. I maybe could learn to head it off, but it can come on so far out of left field that I'm not sure that's the first choice.

I think that's going to be a topic with Dr CattleProd soon, too. I tried to tell him before, but I don't think he quite 'got' it, you know? When I say the physical is what causes trouble, I'm first talking about a reaction that averages just about two millimeters this side of incapacitating, and also about something that often comes on without ANY thought that I can identify as anxiety producing. And I become nearly paralysed. It's also closely linked with my anorexia.

So, all in all, a productive session. Although we'll have to revisit the whole trust thing again, and the fact that I want to find out those triggers, so that we can process them.

Anyway, dinner time. Any comments after today's session?

 

Magnets » Racer

Posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 7:26:42

In reply to Today's installment..., posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 23:18:33

My therapist made a comment like the "magnet" comment. I think his went something like "You keep making this happen..." Like it was all my fault, like I wanted these things to keep happening. The comment made me furious, just like you. But, over time, I started to see what he meant.

Relationships and people are so complex and we interact with people on so, so many levels. There is the obvious verbal level (what we say), and the physical level (what we do), and the less obvious facial expressions, and tone of voice, and body language. And I believe that there are also levels that are more subtle than that, even. We use all of these levels to communicate what we want, need and demand (even when we don't consciously know what we want, etc.). I guess it was important for me to recognize that much (most?) of my motivation was unconscious - it wasn't that I *wanted* bad things to happen. It was more like expected other people to behave in a certain way (after all, my parents had showed me again and again that this is "how people behave"). It is like dancing (think ballroom dancing...) - things work best if one person leads and the other person follows. You have to work as a team with your dance partner or someone gets their feet crushed. So you learn to sense subtle movements and you learn how to match your movements to theirs. If you dance with the same partner a lot, you get to know their way of dancing and the two of you can dance as one.

Every day life is a lot like dancing. We make subtle, unconscious, choices so that things go smoothly. And it is a good thing that we are able to do this. If we couldn't learn from what we have observed in the past, our lives and the lives of those around us would be chaos.

I had a new boss start on Monday (and I like him very much - yeah!!). He doesn't know how things go, how to do things, how to keep from bumping into us. He is learning how we do things (and we are learning how he does things), and over time things will settle down into a routine. All because we will learn each other's subtle cues and what they mean.

Think about passing someone in a narrow hallway. Since I live in the US, I would "naturally" move towards my right so that the other person would pass me on the left. They would "naturally" move towards their right and we would be on opposite sides of the hallway, we would pass each other and everything would work well. Until I went to France. Because then I would move to my right, and they would move to their left and we would collide. Oops! Did I do something "wrong" (bad)? No, I just did what I had learned, what had always worked well for me in the past. Did I intentionally collide with the other person? Of course not. Yet, it *was* MY "fault" that we collided - or was it theirs? Since we are on their turf, it was probably more my "fault", but it certainly wasn't malicious on my part, nor even purposeful.

I've come to believe that when my therapist says that I "make" stuff happen, that he is referring to subtle cues like this. If we expect (again, probably unconsciously) a particular reaction out of someone else, we will anticipate that reaction and do what we have learned will fit with that reaction. If we start to anticipate the reaction before it starts to happen we might start our counterreaction before the reaction has really started. So the other person might then start cueing off of our counterreaction and start doing the "reaction" thing even if that wasn't their intention to begin with. Like in a dance - I expect you to move left, so I start to move left so we'll be going the same way - you then notice than I'm moving left so you move left with me - even though you really didn't want to move left at all in the first place. The leader becomes the follower without anyone realizing it.

This is one way that therapists work. They watch what they are doing/feeling and ask if that is "normal" for them. If they find that they are behaving in a way that is not "normal" (like cutting a session short, for instance), then they look more carefully at the behaviors of the patient. Did the patient do something that nudged them in that direction?

It helped me a lot to understand that most of these behaviors are completely unconscious behaviors. We haven't a clue that we are dancing in an unhelpful way. We certainly are not TRYING to dance in an unhelpful way. But one of the techniques of therapy is to make these unconscious behaviors conscious - because then we can have some control over them.

So, are you a magnet for bad things? You might be doing very subtle, unconscious things that tend to encourage other people to behave in a particular way. But it is also possible to understand these subtle cues and change the way that we act.

Once I got past the "It's all my fault" phase, I found this all to be a pretty incredible, interesting and powerful process.

 

Re: When you react with pain to your T » Racer

Posted by fairywings on October 20, 2005, at 8:41:45

In reply to When you react with pain to your T, posted by Racer on October 18, 2005, at 14:09:07

>>she said something like, "You're like a magnet for this sort of thing. I find myself thinking it's unbelieveable -- I do believe you, because I've seen what county systems can be like. I find myself wanting to cure what was done to you." Now, while I had a little blip of reaction to the part about "unbelieveable," what really sent me over the edge was that part about me being a magnet for it...

What an incredibly poor choice of words, it's no wonder you had such a painful reaction. I hope it's not a trend, and I hope she understands the words and their message that hurt you.
fw
>

 

Re: Magnets » fallsfall

Posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 10:11:59

In reply to Magnets » Racer, posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 7:26:42

Falls -

Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. It made a ton of sense and I get it. There is definitely some truth of that for me.

I'm glad that you like your new boss. It must be a little awkward for him. Does he know you went after the same job? I interviewed 2 people yesterday, and one adult woman candidate, chewed gum the entire time ... wonder what her unconscious motivation was ... "don't hire me, don't hire me".

 

Re: Magnets » Annierose

Posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 11:14:53

In reply to Re: Magnets » fallsfall, posted by Annierose on October 20, 2005, at 10:11:59

Yeah, I told him on Tuesday that I had applied for his job. He was clearly surprised, but handled it OK. As long as he respects me and appreciates the work that I do (which so far he is doing well), it'll be fine.

Gum chewing? What are these people thinking about?

 

Yes, but... » fallsfall

Posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 12:41:41

In reply to Magnets » Racer, posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 7:26:42

how would you then incorporate the concept of projective identification? If I understand it correctly, it is my ability to make you feel like I feel, so I don't have to feel it. I'm working on this, especially around anger. I let my husband hold all the anger because I can't tolerate it. I don't know how I'm doing this yet, but I recognize the truth in it.

So when I react to things, and then project my reactions, is this then taking an unconscious lead? (Hmmm...gets clearer as I type this.)

I think the ultimate question for me is: how to excise my unconscious, because the darn thing seems to be doing me no good at all!

I liked your post a lot.

 

Re: Today's installment...

Posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 12:51:13

In reply to Today's installment..., posted by Racer on October 19, 2005, at 23:18:33

***And we did talk about it, too. We're maybe on the way to getting somewhere. That's because I've decided I don't have to be 'fixed' on any specific schedule. (Note to Daisy: you proud of me for that one?) I can wait until next week to be perfect.***

I'm am totally proud of you!!! But I have to point out (Oh so gently) that you still indicate that you need/have to be "fixed." I'm not sure that is true.

I think my issue is a slight twist, I live in constant fear that people are going to discover/recognize/acknowledge and then be angry about, the fact that I'm not perfect, I'm a fraud and then they will hate me. Even if they say they 'know' I'm not perfect, and even if I say I 'know' I'm not perfect, we all expect me to be anyway.

And as far as the physical response to anxiety. You are describing what happens to my son. I swear it looks like a diabetic reaction, and he says it feels like he is going to throw up and then melt into a puddle right then and there. It took us a long time to figure out his trigger and actually we focused in (using biofeedback) on what his first physical symptom is so he can begin to incorporate his calming techniques immediately, even if he doesn't know yet what is bothering him. He figured out that he begins to mouth breathe, taking shallow breathes. And then his fingers tingle and go cold. It happens quickly, it isn't like there are hours between symptoms. But if he can catch the breathing and force himself to deep breathe, he doesn't go all the way into the panic of it.

Everyone in our house also uses preventive breathing. The rule: everytime you glance at a clock or your watch, you take a deep cleansing breath. It really does work.

 

Re: Yes, but... » daisym

Posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2005, at 17:01:25

In reply to Yes, but... » fallsfall, posted by daisym on October 20, 2005, at 12:41:41

Yes, you are getting it.

But you don't need to excise your unconscious. First you need to accept that your unconscious is part of you. Then you need to figure out when it doesn't seem to be helping and try to make conscious the parts that aren't helping. When you can do that, then you can start to try to change things. As long as it stays unconscious I haven't a clue how to influence anything.


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