Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 563562

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I hope you're doing ok! » alexandra_k

Posted by JenStar on October 11, 2005, at 23:59:13

In reply to going to quit therapy, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2005, at 23:38:32

hi Alex,
I just got back from trip where I didn't have email/internet access...I'm trying to catch up on everything, but I wanted to say "hi" and that I hope you're doing ok!

take care,
JenStar

 

Re: went a little crazy but i think i'm okay now » JenStar

Posted by alexandra_k on October 12, 2005, at 3:37:28

In reply to I hope you're doing ok! » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on October 11, 2005, at 23:59:13

:-)

ooh. a trip? where did you go? what did you see? was it fun?

it can be hard to catch up sometimes...
i hate feeling like i'm missing out on something...

but it is nice to hear from you and i look foward to seeing your posts :-)

 

okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting

Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

In reply to Re: went a little crazy but i think i'm okay now » JenStar, posted by alexandra_k on October 12, 2005, at 3:37:28

t wants me to take a night class to learn self-hypnosis.

i really don't think... that sounds like a good idea to me.

and...

David Groves style 'movement work' where 'He advocates physically moving around in order to see things from a different perspective'.

hmm.

anybody ever heard of that?
i can't find anything on google.
i don't like it when i can't find anything on google.
even NLP got links from google...

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by rainbowbrite on October 13, 2005, at 7:06:27

In reply to okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

I agree, Id be wary of hypnosis, it can be dangerous and people who are more prone to dissociations are more easy to hypnotize. It kind of gives me the willies. I searched David Groves but I cant find anything either.

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by cricket on October 13, 2005, at 7:16:54

In reply to okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

Hi Alex,

I agree with Rainbowbrite. Self-hypnosis does not sound like a good idea.

Never heard of David Groves either and it sounds weird.

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by Tamar on October 13, 2005, at 7:52:43

In reply to okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

> t wants me to take a night class to learn self-hypnosis.

Argh!

> i really don't think... that sounds like a good idea to me.

Well, I wouldn’t go for it, but some people swear by it…

> and...
>
> David Groves style 'movement work' where 'He advocates physically moving around in order to see things from a different perspective'.
>
> hmm.
>
> anybody ever heard of that?
> i can't find anything on google.
> i don't like it when i can't find anything on google.
> even NLP got links from google...

I’ve heard of something similar for conflict resolution. I did it in a workshop once at a conference. It was interesting… Not precisely the same thing your T is talking about perhaps.

I had a little fish about on google. Try googling “david grove” and “clean space”. That might be the thing your T was talking about.

Cheers,
Tamar

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting

Posted by Emily Elizabeth on October 13, 2005, at 9:06:11

In reply to okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

Hmmm. Maybe it is more of a relaxation thing rather than "self-hypnosis." Maybe that's just a catchy name? Some people find EMDR helpful although many people think it is bunk.

Hard to say whether self-hypnosis could be helpful or not. I'll admit that I would have had the same reaction you do. Just thought I'd throw some ideas out there for the sake of argument. ;)

Best,
EE

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting

Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 18:48:34

In reply to okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:31:19

Thanks for the search terms Tamar.

I think it might be... Time to quit.

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting

Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 19:47:26

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 18:48:34

because...

it seems to me that she really is clutching at straws.

and her thought on hypnosis in particular...
would be something that i think most 'experts' would think best avoided for someone with my symptoms.

and i'm not saying that the 'experts' views should be heralded as authoratative or anything like that.

but i do think that if one is going to disagree, or to advise an alternative course of action, then one should at least have a jolly good theorietical motivation for disagreeing.

but to be honest...

i don't think she knows anything about what the 'experts' think or would reccomend. because she writes them off as people who take themselves to be authorative on the clients experiences. when clearly the client is authoratative with respect to their own experiences.

i told her...

that i don't think the 'experts' claim to be authorative on the clients experiences. it is more that the client exhibits certain symptoms (typically cashed out as behavioural). and with respect to what works to alleviate / worsten those symptoms... well... that is an objective matter. and thus you can study what helps and what harms leaving aside the experiences altogether. and thus... the 'experts' are experts because they have studies what helps and what harms.

but that...
is to cast doubt on her particular variety of helping.

which is about believing that the client is the authority. and that the client has it within their power to solve all their difficulties.

fact is...
she is used to seeing people for one or two or three sessions.
so they can vent...
or work out what they are going to do with respect to some particular problem or other.

i know that in many ways her line is best...
i mean... it looks like i'm not going to get a t. so... all that is left to be done... is to accept that i have the power to help myself / solve my own problems. i guess that is the antedote to despair. only trouble is... i don't believe it. i don't believe it.

and i know this is horrid.
but i don't have faith in her
i don't think she knows what she is talking about
she won't read anything that i consider 'reputable'
and she ruminates on this kind of stuff...
and thats fine
and i'm sure thats immensely helpful for some people

but not me not me.

personality clash again...
:-(


 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 22:35:46

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 19:47:26

Oh dear. I hate to see you quit if it helps at least some (and doesn't harm along the way). But only you can decide that, really.

I would want to know her thinking on the hypnosis thing, too, because I agree that's it's usually not good for folks who dissociate.

Here's that DBT self-help website I was telling you about. www.dbtselfhelp.com

Just trying to offer some sense of hope and choice.

((((alexandra)))

gg

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by Damos on October 13, 2005, at 23:01:52

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 19:47:26

Oh Alex, I don't know what to say. But I've got to agree with the others on the self hypnosis thing.

Like gg I don't want to see you lose this if it helps in even the smallest way, but all this cr*p sure must make it hard to stay.

Sorry you're going through this.

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k

Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 5:36:00

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 19:47:26

(((((alex)))))

What a horrible position to be in.

I’ve also read that hypnosis isn’t a good idea for people who dissociate…

It’s very uncomfortable to disagree profoundly at a theoretical level with people who are providing healthcare.

And yet… if you are the authority… if you have it within your power to solve all your difficulties… wouldn’t it make sense for her to recognise that one of your resources is the capacity to understand and critique the theory? I think she shouldn’t be threatened if you have a perspective on the theory that differs from hers.

I think in any healthcare context there should be an understanding that the treatment should fit the patient’s needs. That’s probably not in dispute. But in a situation where someone’s usual theoretical approach isn’t perfectly matched with a patient’s (or client’s) needs, there has to be some room for negotiation.

Have you asked her to read some of stuff you think is reputable? I think it would be reasonable for her to agree to do a little reading. Even if she disagrees with the content, I think she needs to be able to discuss it with you. After all, if she was willing to take you as a client, knowing it wasn’t a perfect arrangement, I think she has some responsibility to move outside her comfort zone a little.

Has she flatly refused to read things you’ve suggested?

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » gardenergirl

Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 19:59:51

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on October 13, 2005, at 22:35:46

> Oh dear. I hate to see you quit if it helps at least some (and doesn't harm along the way). But only you can decide that, really.

yeah. and that... is a hard one. sometimes i think yes, it is helpful for me to see her. othertimes i think no i am just wasting both of our time.

and i vaccilate a fair bit.
we aren't really doing any work...
but then i suppose you get out what you put in. i just don't seem to be able to put more into it. because of our match i suppose. i don't know...

:-(

> I would want to know her thinking on the hypnosis thing, too, because I agree that's it's usually not good for folks who dissociate.

turns out there wasn't much more behind it than that she personally found it useful.

> Here's that DBT self-help website I was telling you about. www.dbtselfhelp.com

thanks.

> Just trying to offer some sense of hope and choice.

> ((((alexandra)))

thanks gg.


 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » Damos

Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:00:51

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on October 13, 2005, at 23:01:52


> Like gg I don't want to see you lose this if it helps in even the smallest way, but all this cr*p sure must make it hard to stay.

thanks damos.
that means a lot.
:-)

 

Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » Tamar

Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:05:29

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 5:36:00

i think the trouble is...
that she has to use what she knows, what she has been trained in as her base.

her training is in having a chat (a 1-3 session chat) with people in order to help them see their way a bit clearer around a fairly particular problem.

i don't know much about her base
the stuff she has read
just what it is exactly that she is trained in.

and so it is hard to talk about it because we are coming from very different places.

i don't agree with the majority of the lit that i have read. but at least i can talk about the points of disagreement with the standard lit. she hasn't read the standard lit. so we kind of talk past each other when discussing these things.

basically... i need to accept her for who she is and what she does.

and that means...
general chat is okay
and that can be helpful
but with respect to anything more
thats all folks.

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14

In reply to Re: okay so now i'm even more serious about quitting » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:05:29

scam got me thinking about a variety of things...

what most struck me was the point that oftentimes people in the service encourage people to believe that they will die outside the service.

that hit me real hard. thats pretty much what i believe. that i'll die if i don't get help. that i'll fall apart. that i won't be able to function. that i dont' have a future. that there isn't any hope.

and what has the service done for me?

one helpful therapist
and so much so very much harm that i just can't even start to get that across
and they gave me horrible stereotypes via which i learned to view myself
borderline
attention seeking
manipulative
hysterical
liar
and they provided me with supplimentary symptoms and encouraged me to...
get worse
because i had to get worse to get treatment
and i believed i'd die without it.

and so i'm powerless and i hate them so much
and i've given them the power
and they encouraged me to
and it has f*cked me up so immensely
and it has almost resulted in my death at times
i never started trying to kill myself
till i was hospitalised involountarily
i never started si
till i was asked about it so much i thought it might be something that was worth a shot - i mean it must help if people do it - right?

but there isn't anything wrong with me.
i'm okay.
i struggle at times.
but that is part of life.
i might struggle more than the majority of people
but that doesn't mean i have a disease
that i'm defective

and so i have been thinking about all this...
and i thought i found a revelation
i felt so very happy for the past few days
so very happy
but i've been spinning a lot too
because of all the other sh*t that was mixed up with that stuff.

i think... i need to move on from the services.
move on from therapy
move on from feeling guilty about not taking a medication that really doesn't seem to help me anyway.

and yesterday...
i got a letter.
that registrar i went to see...
has recomended that i be discharged from the service.

i'm discharged.

they discharged me.

i don't feel i have access to the 'revelation' anymore. times really are very tough sometimes. but the point is that the service harms me more than it helps.

and enough
i've had enough

i have people who mean a great deal to me
a strangers smile means a great deal to me
other people are mostly kind if you give them a chance
things are hard at times
but i'm going to make it
i don't need them

and i am going to work on this:

i don't want them

i dont' want them harming me anymore.

time to move on.

i'll keep seeing my t from uni.
we can have our general chats and i'll take comfort from the fact that she cares

but its probably a good thing that i'm not feeling too attached to her

new country
new start

i dont' wan tto see myself as mentally ill as diseased as NEEDING the mental health service anymore.

enough.

and i feel more at peace.

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 21:28:41

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14

i don't want them harming me anymore
i don't want their diagnoses
i don't want their judgements
i don't want their predictions about the course my life is going to take
i don't want them encouraging my dependence
i don't want them

i don't want to view myself as having a mental illness
i'm not ill
i'm not sick

i'm okay.

i can work through stuff for myself
i can babble about it to others and get a variety of perspectives
i can talk to caring people on the boards
and irl too

and i have realised just how closed off from rl i have become
i turn away from rl to come here

here is wonderful
here is safe
but i need that real life stuff as well
and i need to cultivate that
and i need to think more about my work
than about dramas on the boards

because i don't want to think...
that i'll die without this place
that i can't connect with people outside this place
because if i start to think that
then this place will harm more than help too...

i guess this is going to be a lot like an alchoholic trying to give up drinking.
when i get distressed i want the service to help me
i think about that a lot
the way alchoholics think about drinking
its an addiction
and it will take some time

 

Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k

Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 8:45:19

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14

Hey Alex,

You are so much more than okay. You are so smart and helpful.

I am in much the same place you are right now.

I feel like I was so much better off, so much happier and healthier before therapy.

I will try to post more coherently later. I have a horrible headache right now.

 

Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k

Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 9:37:41

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 20:18:14


>
> that hit me real hard. thats pretty much what i believe. that i'll die if i don't get help. that i'll fall apart. that i won't be able to function. that i dont' have a future. that there isn't any hope.
>
Yeah for me too. My therapist has me convinced not that I'll die but that I'll be a robot, a cold, heartless b*tch.

> and what has the service done for me?
>
> one helpful therapist
> and so much so very much harm that i just can't even start to get that across
> and they gave me horrible stereotypes via which i learned to view myself
> borderline
> attention seeking
> manipulative
> hysterical
> liar
> and they provided me with supplimentary symptoms and encouraged me to...
> get worse
> because i had to get worse to get treatment
> and i believed i'd die without it.
>
Oh Alex. I know what you mean. I wish I could tell you it could be better somewhere else. But I don't know.

> and so i'm powerless and i hate them so much
> and i've given them the power
> and they encouraged me to
> and it has f*cked me up so immensely
> and it has almost resulted in my death at times
> i never started trying to kill myself
> till i was hospitalised involountarily
> i never started si
> till i was asked about it so much i thought it might be something that was worth a shot - i mean it must help if people do it - right?
>
((((Alex))))). But I think you're starting to take back the power, right?

> but there isn't anything wrong with me.
> i'm okay.
> i struggle at times.
> but that is part of life.
> i might struggle more than the majority of people
> but that doesn't mean i have a disease
> that i'm defective
>
That's right. You're smart and sensitive and sometimes that makes it more difficult to function in the world but never defective.

> i don't feel i have access to the 'revelation' anymore. times really are very tough sometimes. but the point is that the service harms me more than it helps.
>
Well ask us to repeat it for you. You are okay. You are not any of those things they've said.

>
> i have people who mean a great deal to me
> a strangers smile means a great deal to me
> other people are mostly kind if you give them a chance
> things are hard at times
> but i'm going to make it
> i don't need them
>
That's right. I'm not saying that there aren't some really good therapists out there and some that have really helped people. But there's also a lot of nonsense and there is harm. There is definitely harm being done to people.

> and i am going to work on this:
>
> i don't want them
>
> i dont' want them harming me anymore.
>
> time to move on.
>
> i'll keep seeing my t from uni.
> we can have our general chats and i'll take comfort from the fact that she cares
>
> but its probably a good thing that i'm not feeling too attached to her
>
> new country
> new start
>
> i dont' wan tto see myself as mentally ill as diseased as NEEDING the mental health service anymore.
>
> enough.
>
> and i feel more at peace.

Yes, try to hang onto that and the revelation too. Have your chats, get whatever you can out of them, don't take anyting she says too seriously, stay in touch with us if it helps, and begin to live. You are an incredible asset to this world. Enough time has been given to the b*stards who try to keep us down, categorize us, judge us. Don't you think? Enough already.

Can you tell I'm talking to myself too? :-)

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 19:55:09

In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 9:37:41

> Can you tell I'm talking to myself too? :-)

yes. and if they aren't helping us really come to believe this stuff then... they are harming.

i know there are some good clinicians out there.

i don't imagine they last long in community mental health. because of the work conditions. because of the pressure to get through huge numbers of cases. because of the pressure to have objective measures of helping at the cost of genuine caring whose effects are only indirectly measurable if at all. because a good clinician working in that environment probably wouldn't last long without burning out and being pressurised to change from management.

and so in a very real sense i suppose you get what you pay for.

though payment doesn't guarantee.

there are a lot of f*cked up people in the world. f*cked up individuals with f*cked up motivations and desires and f*cked up ideas as to how to achieve those. in my experience... clinicians can be just as f*cked up as the people who go see them wanting their help. the trouble is... we expect more.

but in these times where there is a shortage of caring people and so very many who need care entry to do this kind of thing isn't so much based on the kindness and willingness to reflect of the applicants as it is based on their grades and ability to suck up to the 'right people'. at least... thats my experience of clinical psychology / councelling programs in this country and i imagine in the rest of the world too.

i don't know...

good luck to them i suppose.

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 19:55:09

well...
so that registrar did pass me on to the other doc. and yeah, i got a letter saying he had recomended that i be discharged. and so... i had a chat to the other doc. and yeah. they have discharged me. apparantly... get this. but apparantly i function too well to be treated within the service. they are haggling over whether DID counts as a 'major axis one dx' (they don't think it does) they are even willing to quibble over whether the disorder is 'real' (seems that 'officially' they think not at this point in time) and they think it is a grand joke that i was dx'd with bpd.

unbelievable.

yeah ok so i got all sh*tty and lost it a bit. went off about how what are they trying to do? do they need me to go off the deep end and mess myself up or what? part of me... is getting pretty strong urges round about now. he said that i function too well... and that based on my functioning i should never have received the treatment that i have thus far within the service either.

so that is that.

i am so f*cking mad. and sad. i swear to god that if i ever seriously am going to do anything to myself i am not going down alone. no f*cking way. i can't believe this...

he said that yeah i report subjective distress, but me and how many others? subjective distress is not appropriate criteria to determine whether or not someone receives intervention from within the service.

i haven't been in contact with the service for most of this year. haven't really been getting any treatment for a while now.

and now... they are using that as evidence for my high functioning without service intervention.

and so yeah i started making threats.
i hate myself so much.
but if its any consolation
i hate them more.

i am so f*cking mad...

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:50:08

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25

and money money money makes the world go around
and i feel sick to my stomach
and i want to get off

 

Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2005, at 21:21:22

In reply to Re: i have been thinking..., posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 20:49:25

I'm mad for you too. I can't believe what they've been doing to you for the entire time you've been here.

I can see why you don't want to be part of this world, but you are so valuable and special a person, Alexandra. Yours isn't the only care provider in the world. Weren't you even planning to move on soon? Hopefully you'll be able to find more compassion and integrity elsewhere. You have so much to offer, Alexandra. Keep remembering that, and think of these people as what they are. It has nothing to do with who you are or how much you deserve. Because you deserve the best.

I'm rambling I know. But I'm rambling with a lot of caring and concern for you. Remember all those who do care about you.

 

Re: i have been thinking... » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34

In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2005, at 21:21:22

yeah planning on moving on. i only put off moving on for so long because i wanted to get better before i went. i could have started applying to get out of here since the end of 2003 but i've been waiting for treatment...

fact is i'm not going to get any.

i won't have any coverage at all if i leave the country. us offered student health insurance. not so for australia. they treat for emergency and deport for non-emergency (if you can't fund it yourself). i won't even be going to a gp over there.

so that is that.

and even if there is a bloody miracle and i manage to get through 3-4 years of study without a single episode...

well then based on the stats i still probably won't actually get a job.

i wish i could have stuck to the revelation
it was so much easier to live with myself then
but one contact
one simple contact
and i spiral down out of control
once more.

that was horrible.
i think...
they really decided to bring out the calvary with respect to justifying their treatment decision.

i got the whole 'it would be unethical of me to treat you as much as i'd like to' f*cking b*llshit. because i... take time off people who need the service to function. major guilts. i felt like a three year old packing a tantrum because nobody would buy her a sweet.

and with respect to the bpd... he laughed. he really really laughed. he said there was no way i met criteria. and did i really believe that? and i said that sometimes when people start making assumptions and judgements about how you are as a person then you come to see yourself that way too. and he just laughed.

that messed me up so bad.
they told me i'd never be able to go back to varsity because of that.
they laughed at me when i said i wanted to - because of that.

and now he laughs.

i'm not doing so well.
part of me is just screaming out to do one hell of an 'I F*CKING TOLD YOU SO AND YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE ME AND NOW I'VE SHOWN YOU'. Everybody. Somebody.

Because... Chances are... That I really can't do it by myself anyway...

Kid throwing a tantrum...
or something...

 

Re: i have been thinking...

Posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:50:14

In reply to Re: i have been thinking... » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 24, 2005, at 23:40:34

and that old p-doc...
is in the sh*t for having seen me when i was 'functioning too highly'
and the specialist assessment isn't worth sh*t
for the obvious reason that she is in private practice
private practice where everybody who wants treatment gets treatment
not the public service where they'll only want to treat you if you fight that tooth and nail.

they used to talk about bpd as being on the borderline. the borderline between psychotic and neurotic (technically). unofficially... the borderline between sane and crazy.

and thats me
thats where i'm at
and it is like fighting to stay sane
fighting to stay sane
till it gets you in the end...
and sometimes i just feel so tired
and like...
there isn't any hope
because if you do what you have always done
you get what you have always got
and i don't understand how i am supposed to do this myself
i don't understand how i am supposed to fix myself
i don't understand
and all i know is that they don't care
they don't care
they just want me to go away
they have been trying for so long...
and i knew they were doing that
but then sometimes i'd question myself
think it can't be that bad
think i was being paranoid
think that i was being unfair to them
think that i was being selfish
but i was right
they just want me to go away
they have been trying for so long
and my inability to accept that...

it is like a three year old throwing a tantrum
and so i let them take what little self-respect i have
and i degrade myself by begging and pleading and anything anything

and this has to stop
i know it has to stop
and its over now
because i'm discharged
and that is that.


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[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

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