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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 61. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
Things have been intensely dark for me, with tons of anxiety and fear and so much hopelessness. Yesterday that I felt this huge need to grab hold and hang on to my therapist...to be comforted physically. I guess I pulled back and crossed my arms because he stopped and said, "what just happened?" So I told him and told him that my physical response (sitting back more) was due to my surprise at wanting something that wasn't safe (touch) or allowed. And as I stumbled over my words he said, "you can hang on to me emotionally. That will maintain the safety." It hit me so wrong -- it was said too quickly, I felt warded off somehow. I think I turned pink then red and tried to go to some other topic. He said, "did you hear me? I said you could hold on to me emotionally as hard and as long as you need to." I said that was good, because I was already doing that. He knew I was having a reaction to what he said, he asked and I tried to deflect him. I finally told him that I felt rejected and enormously stupid and I knew what the rules were and had no intention of breaking them. And then, thankfully, the session was over. But I couldn't just let it go, I was so upset, so I called and said I wasn't coming today because my feelings were hurt and I needed some space to sort them out.
He called kind of late last night (another thing for me to be sorry for, it was Yom Kippur) and said he really, really wanted to talk to me about what happened. He said he was sorry he hurt me and didn't want me to run away from him. Since I felt guilty that he was taking time away from his family to call me, I agreed to come and talk today instead of over the phone.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to talk again about an already embarrassing situation? I sort of railed at him that he had no idea how hard it was to be on this side of things and feel so needy and know that those needs could not (and should not) be met. He gently reminded me that he had been a client for years as part of his training, he had experienced an intense attachment, so he did know what it was like to be "over there" but that of course he couldn't know exactly what it was like for me. We went back and forth, about how therapy is a set up to getting your feelings stomped on, about not knowing how to get an *A* in therapy and still be honest about what (or whom) you want to kick...and mostly how intensely I want to feel cared for by him and how lonely I am most of the time. He gave me the speech about therapy being a unique kind of relationship, with special constraints and special freedoms too. And he said he does care about me and never thinks of me as just his "2 o'clock". He said he doesn't want me to pull away but he can totally see why I feel hurt, especially since I want something from him I can't have...just like I wanted things from my mother I couldn't have. He wanted me to know that he wasn't rejecting me in anyway, he was trying to allow me the safety of emotional holding.
I'm glad he said all that. But the truth remains that I still feel hugely needed, horribly suicidal and lonely and I want what I can't have. And it is very very painful to have all these feelings and no where to put them.
Posted by fairywings on October 13, 2005, at 20:39:13
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
((((daisy))))
I'm glad you went to see him even though you have such intense feelings of embarrassment. I can imagine how you felt, and how you feel about everything that went on in your sessions.
When do you see him again? Did you talk about the suicidal feelings at all today? That's very concerning, and then to have your heart stomped on makes it so much worse. I'm so sorry.
I'll be thinking of you.
((((hugs)))
fw
Posted by orchid on October 13, 2005, at 20:40:40
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
(((Daisy)))
It sounds really hard.I don't know what the right thing is. No touch is very difficult also. I think he should give you some form of physical contact - like shaking hands, or pat in the back - some minimal atleast so that it doesn't feel so bad. Absolutely no touch must feel really bad. I am with you on that one.
I wonder why he doesn't allow it. Maybe he thinks it will take away the emotional work.
I know it must feel like a huge rejection. Even if he says that he cares about you, still I think it is not enough.
But maybe he has good reasons for it. He is definitely not rejecting you, but he must have good reasons for doing the things the way he is doing.
I hope you feel better soon.
Please hang in there. Your T does care about you quite a lot. Maybe he is also feeling bad about his inability to offer you even minimal physical comfort. But he probably has a hard ethical code in that area, maybe because he allows so much of emotional attachemnt and dependancy. Maybe giving physical contact also might blow it out of proportion. I think he is keeping your good beign in mind ultimately.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2005, at 20:55:27
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
I think it goes back to therapy being too much like being in love, like I wrote about myself.
And the rotten sort of love, like junior high, where there's nothing but pain and no payoff.
:(
Or maybe I'm just feeling negative about it right now.
Posted by LadyBug on October 13, 2005, at 23:43:48
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2005, at 20:55:27
I can relate to how you feel. I too wanted to be held physically at my last session. When I got up to leave, I looked at her crying and said, "I need a hug," I went towards her and hugged her, she was caught off guard and didn't respond like she could have, but I just wanted to lay my head down on her and have her comfort me. As soon as I got out to my car, I called and left her a voice mail telling her how wrong I had been because touching in any form except for a hand shake is totally breaking a boundary. It wasn't her fault I chose to hug her and she couldn't push me away! I felt horrible and ashamed! I called and canceled my next appointment so I could process my thoughts better and feel more up to talking about what happened. I made a last min. long shot with her today to see if she had any times available tomorrow. I'm going in the morning and I'm sure I'll have some "splainin" to do!!
I've been going through total hell in my marriage the last 6 weeks and I was clinging to whatever felt safe. She feels safe to me and I wanted her to comfort me more than just emotionally. Gee, I'm an idiot. Learn from it, it's grist for the mill.
It's hard to have boundaries, but they are in place for our own protection.
I hope you work through this dasiy!! I can understand how much it hurt you and how it feels so much like rejection!!! This is hard especially because it is the very thing I suffered from as a little girl.
And I wish you brighter days in the near future. Hang tough!
LadyBug
Posted by Shortelise on October 14, 2005, at 1:13:36
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
I'm so sorry Daisy. Really so very sorry. I would love to hold you, sit on the sofa, and hold your hand, and lean against you as we talk. I just know how painful this is.
I send more than hugs - I send you holding.
ShortE
Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 6:15:22
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
Daisy, this sounds incredibly painful. Especially after you’ve worked so hard to trust him with things that are so incredibly difficult to say… You’ve been so open and honest about your feelings about the relationship and this must have hurt so much.
> I felt warded off somehow.
I felt exactly that way in therapy once or twice. And that was the closest I’ve ever come to feeling suicidal.
I wonder why he spoke too quickly. Are you curious about that? Do you think he’d tell you if you asked?
And I wonder why he didn’t ask you why you wanted to hug him at that particular moment, and what if would mean for you, when you’ve never wanted touch before (at least, if I understand correctly).
I know you’ve talked about thoughts of other kinds of intimacy and what that might mean for you. But if this was the very first time you actually wanted to reach out and touch him, it seems like a very important thing.
If this was the first time you told him you wanted physical touch, then it sounds as if he missed an opportunity to talk about something very significant. It seems somewhat unusual for him.
> I finally told him that I felt rejected and enormously stupid and I knew what the rules were and had no intention of breaking them.
That was pretty much my private mantra throughout therapy: “I know what the rules are and I have no intention of breaking them.” I was trying to protect myself from the possibility of his rejection.
But there’s a huge difference between *wanting* to break the rules and *planning* to break the rules. We have to be allowed to *want* to break them, even if we have no intention of breaking them. I think that wanting to break those rules is a sign you’re doing therapy right.
> I'm glad he said all that. But the truth remains that I still feel hugely needed, horribly suicidal and lonely and I want what I can't have. And it is very very painful to have all these feelings and no where to put them.
(((((Daisy)))))
I’m so sorry. I do hope things get better soon. When do you see him again?
Tamar
Posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 10:45:02
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by fairywings on October 13, 2005, at 20:39:13
Thanks all for the support, hugs and the holding...I knew I could come here for that.
You've asked some good questions, but the most important (to me) was, "why did he react the way he reacted?" -- and I think I may have thought I was much clearer in expressing the urge than I actually was -- meaning I've said lots of times "I need to hang on to you" and we both understand it means metaphorically and emotionally. I'm not sure how clear I was, even if in my own head I could hear myself screaming "grab my hand I'm drowning!" It isn't the first time I've expressed wanting to sit next to him but it is the first time I've expressed it in the moment and as an urge.
He said at the beginning of the session yesterday he didn't understand why my feelings got so hurt - that he was saying it was OK. And I did tell him that the response I expected from him was either "it is OK to want that" (unspoken,"don't act") or "why do you want that?" He said he has said before it is OK to want that. And then he stopped himself and said, "it was the wrong response. As we talk about this, I can see why you got so hurt. You just wanted/needed a safe place to think about what being held by me would be like and whether it would help or hurt." He asked me if I thought he was commenting on my attractiveness, if I was taking it like he didn't want to touch me in an "ewww" kind of way. (OK, I had to smile, he sounded like a little boy "couties")So we talked about adolescent fears that inhabit some of these feelings I have for him.
I think he rushed in because it was close to the end of the session and I've been so hopeless he didn't want me to leave feeling like I didn't have an anchor. He misses when he is anxious, which isn't often, but I'm scaring him right now. I hate knowing that. He tells me all the time that therapy works best when there are ruptures and repairs. And he didn't make me feel like I was just being stupid to feel hurt, nor was he ultra defensive in anyway. So I guess he gets points for that. He isn't perfect, but I guess I'll keep him.
I don't see him again until Monday but he wants a check in call today. I still don't have much to say. I find myself wishing he had email these days.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 14, 2005, at 11:28:21
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 10:45:02
I'm glad you went in to talk this out. Yeah, ruptures and repairs are good for therapy, but ick, who wants 'em?
((((daisy))))
gg
Posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 13:48:46
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 10:45:02
Hi Daisy,
One question I have about your therapy is - How does your T help you overcome your feelings?I know he is really great in understanding your feelings, and perhaps even in understanding where they are originating from.
But does he tell you ways to overcome your painful feelings? Talking about it is one of the right ways. But there might be other ways which will probably help you move faster.
I am not sure if I am making sense, but it appears to me, that you have been suffering intensely for a very long time. 2 - 3 years now?
There could be some ways to help you move faster.
Maybe you should ask your T. I am sure he will know of a way.
This is just an observation I had, maybe I am wrong. But please think along this line.
Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:14
In reply to How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » daisym, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 13:48:46
Hi Orchid,
I hope it’s OK with you and Daisy if I jump in…
I think sometimes the goal isn’t exactly about overcoming feelings… Sometimes it’s all about experiencing feelings and working through them. And that’s a process that can take quite a long time.
Different approaches suit different people, and sometimes it’s important not to try to suppress the feelings. Sometimes the feelings simply can’t be suppressed or overcome; they can only be managed and contained as far as possible. It takes as long as it takes. But trying to rush it to overcome the feelings isn’t always the best course of action. It can be counterproductive if the feelings are very powerful.
Just my two cents…
Tamar
Posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:14
It is ok with me !!! :-)
Actually you have a valid point in that some feelings just can't be overcome or suppressed and needs to be worked through.
Working through the feelings is actually very good, but I was just wondering if there is a way to do it in a faster way.
Like I know for instance, sometimes talking is not the only effective way to work through the feelings. Picturising and visualization techniquest are some times more faster. Similarly, EMDR has also been shown to be little faster. The other day, I read somewhere if you picture the feelings and kind of try to make it distant and in black and white, it kind of reduces the intensity of the feelings.
That is what I was hoping maybe he can tell of a way to reduce the suffering and fasten the recovery.
Sometimes, too much talking about the feelings also makes one kind of "wallowing in the mud". For instance, with my first T, I suffered a lot for nearly 2 years (perhaps even more), and I thought I needed to work throught it with him, and I was just trying to work it through by writing to him again and again. At that time, I thought it was the only way.
But now in retrospect, I think I should have decided to seek face to face therapy quite a while back here, and it would have really helped me overcome these feelings long back, instead of using emails.
I know Daisy is in a different state, but I was just hoping maybe she can try some of the alternative approaches like EMDR or art therapy or something like that, and maybe her therapist might know of a way to do it.
Posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » Tamar, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42
I think we have to be extremely sensitive when discussing other people's treatment.
For those of us who care very much about Daisy, it's hard to see her suffer. She doesn't deserve this. It hurts us to see her hurting because she's such a special, wonderful, kindhearted person.
But at the same time, I realize that the things that sometimes happen to us are just terrible. And vocalizing those things, after keeping them hidden for so long, can often be almost as terrible. It hurts, but it is not a hurt without a purpose. We can get better. And we will. Daisy WILL be better. I have every confidence.
I think that if Daisy's T knew a better way, or a different or faster way, he would want to implement that. He cares about Daisy too, after all he sees her quite a bit and I'm sure it hurts him to see her suffering. Daisy trusts him, and with good reason. We need to trust him, and trust Daisy, and just offer her all the support and hugs we can possibly muster. I am confident that Daisy's T is doing what is best. And I think sometimes she may need us to reassure her that we have confidence in both of them.
Posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15
I am sorry if my post offended anyone !!.
Everytime I try to post something different I get this kind of feedback !!.
And I think I repeat the same mistake again.
It was written in good spirits and maybe it is not obvious from my post, but I didn't mean it as a criticism.
And I don't see personally anything wrong in suggesting trying an alternative approach.
But every time I suggest it, people get offended.
So, I won't try to offer any suggestion.
But I do think, in addition to just giving support and saying we are sorry about the state of things, if we can think of something to make things better, even if it sounds not politcally correct, it is justified to say it. As long as the intention is not to hurt or criticize, I think we can offer different view points. And I honestly don't see why a suggestion to ask a therapist for any other alternative approach should be considered as wrong or insensitive or taken as criticizing.
But it has back fired too many times now.
And I don't want to do it anymore !!
Posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 18:27:56
In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46
I am sorry Orchid. I did not mean to frustrate you.
To be fair, Daisy has not replied, so I'm sorry if I made you feel bad.
Voce
Posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 18:31:57
In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46
Don’t take it personally, Orchid!
I think it’s good that you post different ideas. I’m sure no one would think your intentions were anything but helpful.
It happens a lot on the boards that people disagree about the best way to look at things. I know people have disagreed with me frequently. It can feel a little uncomfortable, but of course if everyone agreed about everything, life would be very strange.
Your point of view is valid. And I think it’s really nice that you think about other people’s situations and want to help. Please don’t feel discouraged. You’ve been very caring and helpful to me (and others) many times. I won’t forget it. So I hope you won’t think of this occasion too much as backfiring; I really think it’s just a case of different people having different ideas about things. And a variety of ideas adds spice to life.
It’s always good to see you posting.
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
Hi Daisy,
I am so sorry I am late in responding. I know how it feels to wanting some physical closeness and yet you can't have it. I didn't get it growing up as a child, and now my DH isn't giving it to me either. Sometimes you just want to be touched and held or hugged.
My T doesn't do hugs either, unless it is at the end of therapy treatment or a little kid or something. He got kinda irrtatated with me a long time ago when I asked him what he would do it I were to fall apart emotionally and start crying. I have never been in therapy before and I wanted to know what they do. He then went on to explain he would make me feel better by his words. Well in a way in kept me from losing it in his presence, maybe I needed to I am not sure, but I will try like h#ll not to fall apart if I know he is just going to look at me. I want a hug too, but it isn't going to happen ever. I admit it has kept me at a distance from him in a personal way, maybe it made me stronger, I am not sure yet. I don't know if anything I am saying helps, but I know what is is like to want to be hugged or held, and to have it withheld. It seems like I want it all the more, if I know I can't get it. :(
Posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
Hey, hope you'll take good care of yourself this weekend. The pain is enormous, I know, even though mine is not about my feelings for my T, but for a male authority figure that is never going to see me/help me in this way. It really feels like one hug will do it, but I will never get it. Why can't I get past it? Why can't I feel it for my T? She gives me hugs all the time, but they don't meet the need.
It is just so very, very frustrating. You were good to go back to talk again, it has to help.
love,
antigua
Posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25
In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46
hi Orchid,
I like the advice you offer. I think you are always trying to think of how to fix things in a timely manner, thinking in a practical sense. Maybe it's because you're an engineer (I think you are -- am I getting that right? I think you do something technical, right? s/w, maybe?) I'm the same way, at least when it comes to giving advice to others. When it comes to ME, I'm hopelessly lost. :)Anyway, I always appreciate your advice, so keep offering it to me, at least! :)
thanks,
JenStar
Posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 23:59:06
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on October 14, 2005, at 11:28:21
I agree -- ick. But I think I appreciate the fact that he won't let me run away and pretend like everything is OK. It is what we do here at home, after fights and it is what happened my whole life growing up -- everyone acted like everything was OK. So it is a learning experience for me.
still hurts though...
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » Tamar, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42
You ask good questions -- but I can tell you that my therapist doesn't want me to overcome these feelings, he wants us to work with them and understand them. He wants me to allow that I have feelings, good and bad, that I can't control and that have no purpose but just are part of me. I do what you are doing -- I probe for faster ways to "get through it" and I feel frustrated that I can't just "get over it." But trauma work, I am told, takes a long time and it is important to let all the parts and pieces have their say. I know that is really hard for people to understand sometimes.
I've used that "wallowing in the mud" expression, describing myself as full of self-pity, etc. The response is almost always that it is OK to want to be heard, that most people grow up never being heard. So saying stuff out loud, over and over again is really important.
I think it is all about which orientation you are using and whether it is short or long term therapy. I do understand that you are simply suggesting other options, but it is hard not to feel criticized. It isn't so much that I disagree with you as much as I agree totally with you about wallowing in it. It is just hard to hear it put like that and it is hard not to want to defend my therapist (even when I'm upset with him.) I think sometimes I get the feeling that you disapprove of his style and my dependency. Believe me, I'm working on it.
All that said, I appreciate the support you are always willing to offer.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:25:22
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:14
"It takes as long as it takes."
I wish I had a dime for everytime my therapist has said that to me. He would agree with everything you've said. I worry often that I'm taking too long or doing it all "wrong." It helps to hear that someone else kind of gets how we are doing therapy. It is complicated, isn't it?
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:29:27
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15
Wow -- thanks Voce...I don't deserve such a cheering section. Can I please borrow some of your confidence?
I think you are right, if there was an easier way that would work all this through, we would be using it. I have to have faith that my therapist knows what he is doing, because I surely don't.
I'll take those hugs too, btw.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:35:11
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23
It always helps to know I'm not alone. It is so unusual for me to want physical comfort because I don't usually like my space invaded.
As far as crying, I felt like you feel about breaking down. But when it happened, and it did, it really was OK. I felt held emotionally and he was close by, but it wasn't like he was just watching. It is hard to explain. But some weeks I feel like all I do now is cry in therapy!
I think it helps that I can curl up in the corner of the couch, feet up, with lots of pillows so I'm not so exposed when crying.
Thanks for sharing. I hope you get what you need too.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:38:37
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20
I'm sorry you understand these feelings so well. What is up with us, huh? That daddy complex I'm sure.
I'm working at hanging in there. Tonight is a tough night, long story. You take care too.
lv and hugs,
Daisy
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