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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:33:16
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger, posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:16:13
Daisy,
The more I think of it, I think buying a punching bag would help you immensely. Please buy one. And punch it whenever you are feeling helpless and feel like SI or Suicidal.That will help you exert some control over soemthing, and will divert your mind from self harming. Only because we feel completely helpless and control less, we feel tempted to do some harm to ourselves.
A while back I read somewhere that in ancient days, people are asked to walk in stones till it hurts their legs. It was done so that, people won't internalize their pain, and rather will experience it externally. And it will help people relieve their inner pain by experiencing it externally in their body. That is what people attmept to do, when they try to do self harm. So instaed of doing self harm, experiencing mild physical pain like walking on stones, or punching a bag, will have the same effect.
So please think about it. I am sure it will help you immensely.
Posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2005, at 17:58:15
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
I'm not good with shame, myself.
The times we have worked on it in therapy, I think that the bottom line is that what I was doing wasn't so awful, so I didn't need to feel so badly about it.
You didn't do anything awful. You were in a lot of pain. You had trouble telling your therapist about it (but you managed to!). What is so awful about that?
Please stay close to your supports - us and your therapist. It isn't time to close things up. Let us help you.
Posted by daisym on September 29, 2005, at 23:50:42
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by fairywings on September 29, 2005, at 8:08:05
I had a session today and we talked a little bit about him being upset with me. He said he was mad about me being in danger when we have an agreement but he isn't mad that I feel this way. And he said he knows that the damn has to break before I usually tell him...he just wants to try to back track to the trigger and we can't if I let it get to far.
I'm leaning right now, believe me. I told him I wished I had another way to cope with these feelings and he said if this works we don't need to find another way right now. He promised again not to let go. (It is sort of a joke between us that he is holding the end of my rope so when I get there, he is already there. I gave him the end of a piece of rope with a knot in it about a year ago. I should ask him if he still has it.)
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:02:20
In reply to Comic book superheroes, posted by Racer on September 29, 2005, at 13:31:16
I think you already know that it is a "superwoman" complex -- but more than that, I can't bear to disappoint people and I'm doing that a lot these days. Today my therapist said two things that I need to think about: 1) "you will never be the same person you were before -- you are changing and that is hard but necessary." 2)and "I think maybe one of the reasons you keep pushing me away and trying to handle it all yourself if that this is how you've internalized your mom and letting go of her vision of you is letting go of her."
That hurts a lot to think about. I told him I'm tired and have no fight left. Work issues are especially hard because I believe that I should figure out a way to make this all better. And maybe clearing the road for someone else to take over is the best way to do this.
And if I'm not here, I don't have to face anyone's disappointment. Not even his.
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:13:23
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger, posted by orchid on September 29, 2005, at 14:16:13
If your father had broken your leg in your childhood, will you be ashamed now of limping? No, right? You would very clearly see that it was his problem and it was his evilness. And that it has got nothing to do with you. And you would have recognized that your suffering is only a problem that he imposed on you. You would have perhaps even made a lot of peace with it, because everybody who sees you, would have heard the story and told you that it was his action that needs to be condemned and you should be proud of yourself for surviving all that.
***You know what? I'd probably be ashamed of limping. Or at least I wouldn't want anyone to feel sorry for me over it. I have a hard time not being ashamed FOR other people -- even if it is about what they did to me. I still think I must have some part in all of this.
What your father did to you mentally in your childhood is 100 times worse. Think you are limping somewhat in your mental strength now. But, it is just a reaction to the intense trauma and stress that you went through as a child, and it really doesn't reflect anything on you as a person or as an individual.
***I don't believe that. I think lots of individuals have traumatic events and get over them better than I have. All of this is so old and should be placed firmly in the past where it belongs.
The only thing that you need to remember very very clearly now, is that none of the problems that you have has anything to do with you. It all stems from your dad. The only task for you, is to make yourself free of him, and making sure that all the dirt ends with him. Don't take any of that on yourself. You are a wonderful person, you have sustained so much of trouble and problems, you have made a decent home for yourself, raised wonderful kids, and you are running a business which helps kids, you are intelligent and you help others here on this board. And you are honest with yourself. What more can a person do in this life? This is the max anyone can do. You have done the very best. Be proud of yourself. There is absolutley nothing to be ashamed of.
***Not true, not true, not true. Most of the problems I'm trying to deal with now are because of my decisions or choices. And a lot of this is because I let down. I got selfish and focused on myself and things slipped by and got out of control.
Suicide intentions and SI are perhaps an outlet for the intense pain that you are going through in your mind. When we feel we don't control anything in our lives, people think of suicide and SI as a way to exert some control. But please remember that all the helplessness that you feel are all very very temporary. IT is like an extremely harsh winter. It will go away, and beautiful spring and warm summer are just on the horizon. But you need to be patient with yourself, and treat yourself with much more kindness and warmth during this period. Just like you would cuddle yourself with a warm blanket when the winter is cold. Think of yourself as suffering from some physical ailment, rather than torturing yourself for not being 100 % allright mentally.
***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
Plus, buy a punching bag, and punch it whenever you feel helpless, and angry, or hurting. That will really help relieve some stress.
***It might help, I have a hard time channeling my emotions this way. Anger is unproductive and scary for me. I've experienced too much hitting for me to ever hit. But thanks for the suggestion. I appreciate the support.
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:18:29
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by fallsfall on September 29, 2005, at 17:58:15
Thanks for saying I don't have to be ashamed. I still feel this way.
I don't see how anyone can help right now. It is a waiting game and I'm not strong enough to stand the wait. I'm trying, but I can feel the weight crushing. It is so complicated...
I worry that posting all of this sounds too whiney or is too hard on people to read. So I won't pull back too much but I'm being cautious. You already know that my therapist is on high alert so I'm sure I will be checking in a lot. And we adjusted sessions next week so I don't have to skip due to work, at least not much. But next week seems really far away right now.
Wasn't I supposed to have this melt down last week, when he was away? I don't know what is happening to me, but I don't like it.
Posted by fairywings on September 30, 2005, at 6:28:41
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » fairywings, posted by daisym on September 29, 2005, at 23:50:42
I'm so glad, did he make you feel better? Were you able to figure out what triggered you? I hope you can figure it out, and patch up those feelings. Getting so deflated feels so awful.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » orchid, posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:13:23
> ***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
>
Hi Daisy,I'm sorry to see you feeling so bad.
I really identify with your SI description above. For me it is punishment too. Punishment of any part that needs anybody, that wants to attach to anybody. The problem is that those parts in me are so dormant, perhaps even dead that I haven't SIed in a long time. I used to SI a lot at the beginning of my therapy, back when I had hope.
Luckily my mom part that says "you aren't done" is pretty strong still. My son isn't even in high school yet.But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
I wish I had some better advice to give you. I know that the way you've been able to share yourself with your therapist is something incredibly special. It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
Posted by Annierose on September 30, 2005, at 8:19:39
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » fallsfall, posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 0:18:29
Maybe you waited for him to come back before you had your meltdown. You knew his support was an important component in order for you to get through it. Kindof like the preschooler holding it together throughout the day, and completing falling apart upon seeing mom (in a "now that you are here I know I can fall apart sort of way and you'll help me make everything better" ...).
Do you ever have the fantasy (and I use that word loosely) of just getting all this pain out there by meeting with your T all day for a few days in a row. Somehow I feel that help work through this really hard stuff. Instead of constantly having to pull ourselves together after an hour to be productive employees, mothers, wives, and friends.
Posted by fairywings on September 30, 2005, at 9:11:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
>
> But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
>
> It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
>hi cricket,
I hope between now and when your son gets to high school you can find the parts of yourself that make you a wonderful alive human being. Your son will always need you, no matter how old he gets. You will never stop being his mom. You're so important and worthwhile. I know it doesn't always feel that way.
I'm sorry if it feels like I'm trivializing your pain, I really don't mean to. I hope you find things to carry you through. I know how it feels to feel suicidal, and I hope you get beyond those feelings before your son gets to high school.
fw
Posted by antigua on September 30, 2005, at 18:28:39
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
I punish myself when I'm hurting the most by not eating, not allowing any nurturing of my body. It's very painful, but it fits. I'm so lost at the moment that I don't think anything or anybody could help.
antigua
Posted by daisym on September 30, 2005, at 21:05:59
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by antigua on September 30, 2005, at 18:28:39
Can you tell me what's wrong? I can't believe your therapist can't help, she usually does. And not eating impairs your ability to think rationally, don't forget that.
I think I can relate to the lost feeling. At what point do you really just say, "I give up" and lay down on the freeway? Or wander 40 years in the desert, or something. Rarely do I regret having kids. Today I wish I hadn't had them. They deserve better than the distracted sad sack I've become. *sigh* It is going to be a loooonnnggg weekend.
(((Antigua)))
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 22:58:44
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by cricket on September 30, 2005, at 7:44:44
>
> > ***the SI is about punishment. One side of me is punishing the other side of me for wanting my therapist, for needing support and for being self-centered. The suicidal piece is from the part that is being punished. She is giving up and wants out. And it has gotten to the point that the executive is willing to help her inorder to kill off her memories. There is just this tiny voice, the mom part, that says, "you aren't done, you still have an obligation as a parent." But it is pretty faint tonight.
> >
> Hi Daisy,
>
> I'm sorry to see you feeling so bad.
>
> I really identify with your SI description above. For me it is punishment too. Punishment of any part that needs anybody, that wants to attach to anybody. The problem is that those parts in me are so dormant, perhaps even dead that I haven't SIed in a long time. I used to SI a lot at the beginning of my therapy, back when I had hope.
>
> Luckily my mom part that says "you aren't done" is pretty strong still. My son isn't even in high school yet.
>
> But as soon as he gets there, as soon as he is on his own, I have every intention of either killing myself or living on so many drugs that I am a walking zombie.
>
> I wish I had some better advice to give you. I know that the way you've been able to share yourself with your therapist is something incredibly special. It shows what a wonderful, alive human being you are. I hope it can carry you through.
>
>
HOLY CRAP. Whats up with this. Its like we are all in the same space. Is that weird or what??!!??
I can so TOTALLY relate to the stuff you guys are saying, like strangley so. Anyhow, there's a part of me that NEVER quits (thank-you God), so far anyways(ALMOST did once, but she saved me). WE WILL GET BETTER!!! We are in some kind of mass slump. So lets just hold each other up and we will get thru this. All of us.
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:30:36
In reply to Hey, Guys!!!, posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 22:58:44
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:35:43
In reply to F*ck the world, we will survive!!! (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:30:36
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
In reply to F*ck shame, I'm doing alI am able to. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:35:43
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:43:42
In reply to Made by God. Thats me. Must not be ALL bad. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
Posted by Poet on October 1, 2005, at 12:21:01
In reply to Shame - trigger, posted by daisym on September 28, 2005, at 23:40:02
Hi Daisy,
At the end of the last session I told T I was sorry I told her something. She asked if I thought she was going to judge me. I said of course you will, you are human, we judge others. She thinks I tell her something and then feel ashamed/have regrets about it as a way to hurt myself. Punish myself. I think she is right, but I've been doing this to myself for so long that I don't know how to stop it. T says her goal for me has always been for me to take it easy on myself- learn to give myself a break.
Daisy, I think you need to give yourself a break. I know, easy for me to say, and not do. Your T needed to know you are more suidical. That is nothing to be ashamed of. My T keeps telling me that she cares about me and I can't change that. You're T cares about you, and you can't change it, either.
BTW I don't think suicide is the easy way out. I think it's taking a risk that whatever happens to me will be better. Staying here and trying to work through my messed up thoughts/life isn't easy either.
(((((((((Daisy)))))))))
Poet
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:14:45
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by Annierose on September 30, 2005, at 8:19:39
>>>>Do you ever have the fantasy (and I use that word loosely) of just getting all this pain out there by meeting with your T all day for a few days in a row. Somehow I feel that help work through this really hard stuff. Instead of constantly having to pull ourselves together after an hour to be productive employees, mothers, wives, and friends.
<<<<<I have had this fantasy and once said I was going to take a vacation and just force myself through all of it. He had a fit, told me how dangerous that would be and how emotional flooding could result in intense suicidal feelings and we need to titrate it and contain things. Since I see him 4 days in a row most of the time I do get tired of having to pull myself back together constantly. I try to keep most of my appointments near the end of the day and leave enough time to get myself together before I have to make dinner, etc. It doesn't always work.
And he said what you said about missing him now that it was safe to do so. He said our unconscious selves are usually pretty protective. I said it would be so much easier to not have an unconscious. His response? "yes, but how boring."
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:16:08
In reply to Made by God. Thats me. Must not be ALL bad. (nm), posted by muffled on September 30, 2005, at 23:39:55
Posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:23:14
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » daisym, posted by Poet on October 1, 2005, at 12:21:01
We've had that whole judgement discussion. My chosen type of si is really embarrassing and impossible to talk about. He wants to and I just shut down.
I think you are right about how hard it is to stay here and it is equally hard to decide to end it too. I get through most of the gates but there is one too big to get around yet. I suspect that it would take a huge stressor to make me smash through it in order to get it done.
I wish I didn't have these thoughts at all. It makes me feel guilty to make my therapist worry. I know I can't control his feelings but I do have control over what I tell him which effects how he feels. I just need to find a way to shut myself up. It is really hard.
Posted by antigua on October 2, 2005, at 6:47:54
In reply to Re: Shame - trigger » Poet, posted by daisym on October 1, 2005, at 20:23:14
But a part of you knows that you can't shut up, that it's coming out for a reason and you want help with it, no matter how hard it is.
I know some people would tell me that maybe it's time to get another T. She is wonderful to me, or at least tries her best, but I still can't let her all the way in. Sigh... I just don't think I am capable of doing that. Except with a man, and that always turns out so inappropriately. I jump to trust based on a fantasy of my good father.
I'm just surrounded by triggers of my good father at the moment. It was his birthday and we did have a good relationship before his death (before I really understood that even the simple things I remembered were csa), but I can't seem to see the "evil" one, the one who did all the damage. Today I feel so hopeless that I will ever get there. It's just not coming out, and as I've said before, there is this huge black hole of something that I don't remember and I trust that when I face it, life will be better.
Sorry to be so blue,
antigua
Posted by daisym on October 2, 2005, at 15:23:22
In reply to Re: Shame new trigger » daisym, posted by antigua on October 2, 2005, at 6:47:54
But a part of you knows that you can't shut up, that it's coming out for a reason and you want help with it, no matter how hard it is.
***Is this really OK? I DO want to tell my therapist all the stories, all the little things and I want him to know all about the fear. I wrote this whole thing about darkness, what is scary about the dark, what kind of dark is OK and what happens in the dark. After I gave it to him I felt stupid. I might need to go through all the details but certainly he doesn't. He gets it: lots of bad things happened. He knows the list of acts and I think he has filled in the rest of the blanks. Sometimes I think I'm torturing myself by going through it like this, punishing myself somehow. I don't want to punish him too.
I know some people would tell me that maybe it's time to get another T. She is wonderful to me, or at least tries her best, but I still can't let her all the way in. Sigh... I just don't think I am capable of doing that. Except with a man, and that always turns out so inappropriately. I jump to trust based on a fantasy of my good father.
***I think I get this. I'm beginning to understand that I unconsciously chose a man because my mom didn't keep me safe. I asked my therapist if he thought I could do this work with a woman and he said yes, but it probably would have taken a little longer. On the other hand, maybe learning to trust another woman would have been a good thing. I have set up several scenarios where I put my therapist in the role of my mother and yet keep him powerless to "save" me -- but he pushes through these things and insists on being with me even if he can't "save" me. This is a huge difference.
I'm just surrounded by triggers of my good father at the moment. It was his birthday and we did have a good relationship before his death (before I really understood that even the simple things I remembered were csa), but I can't seem to see the "evil" one, the one who did all the damage.
***Birthdays and other significant dates are really hard. I have had a good relationship with my dad for the last 20 years or so. It is really hard for me to be around him right now but I miss him tremendously. Funny thing is that when my therapist tries to get me to talk about the good things my dad did with me I just can't. The pain is HUGE and I end up in the fetal position not breathing. Don't get that yet...
Today I feel so hopeless that I will ever get there. It's just not coming out, and as I've said before, there is this huge black hole of something that I don't remember and I trust that when I face it, life will be better.
***Maybe not. Maybe the reason you haven't been able to remember is that there is too much pressure about it being a cathartic event. I mean I honestly don't know, but it sounds like you have been telling yourself that if you could just remember this one thing...you could break free from the grip it has on you. The truth, harsh as it is, is that we can't ever really be free from it because it is our history. We can learn to live with it and loosen that killer grip, and somehow I don't think knowing all the details makes it easier to do this. Perhaps the answer, and again I don't know, is to deal with it as a whole. Believing in your heart of hearts that you were abused, that it was awful and that yes, your dad did it, is the work that has to be done, I think. There are days when I think, "that just can't be right. I'm remembering it wrong. He couldn't have done that, especially on purpose." I had one of those defining moments a month or so ago -- I looked at my therapist and very, very quietly said, "what happened to me was bad, wasn't it?" And he looked me straight in the eyes and said, "yes, what happened to you was awful." No punches pulled, no softening, he just said it. But I needed to hear it. I keep telling myself it wasn't really that bad - so many other people suffered so much worse. I think somehow you might need to do that for yourself too. Details or not, what happened to you was awful. And not your fault. And given all that, it is still OK that you loved your dad.
Sorry to be so blue
((((antigua)))) -- Nothing to be sorry about. I hope this doesn't sound too much like a lecture and honestly I think I wrote it as much for you as I did for me. I wish I had more than words to offer.
Posted by Tamar on October 2, 2005, at 17:42:49
In reply to Re: Shame new trigger - long reply » antigua, posted by daisym on October 2, 2005, at 15:23:22
> ***Is this really OK? I DO want to tell my therapist all the stories, all the little things and I want him to know all about the fear. I wrote this whole thing about darkness, what is scary about the dark, what kind of dark is OK and what happens in the dark. After I gave it to him I felt stupid. I might need to go through all the details but certainly he doesn't. He gets it: lots of bad things happened. He knows the list of acts and I think he has filled in the rest of the blanks. Sometimes I think I'm torturing myself by going through it like this, punishing myself somehow. I don't want to punish him too.
I was thinking about this recently: about whether they get it, and whether they need to hear the details. I dunno… I came to the conclusion that they *do* need to know the details; that knowing ‘lots of bad things happened’ isn’t quite enough for them to truly get it. And filling in the blanks themselves isn’t really possible; it’s only ever an approximation. The only way the blanks can be properly filled is when we tell them the details in our own words (avoiding all those nasty words we hate, like ‘victim’ or ‘trauma’ or whatever!). And I do think they want to get it; I think they know they can help us best if they really get it. So I don’t think it’s punishing them to tell them the details; I think in a way it’s helping them to help us.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by daisym on October 2, 2005, at 19:21:20
In reply to Re: Shame new trigger - long reply » daisym, posted by Tamar on October 2, 2005, at 17:42:49
It is hard for me to really believe this. My therapist says that he wants to hear the details, that he needs to hear them...because then I'm not alone with the experience anymore. And everytime I say I've said this before, he says this is the process, going over and over it again and again. He swears he gets something new everytime I tell it. I add in stuff or feel something else. I think I should be done with this part, I want to move away from the story telling. He says "you are where you are" and he always says it can take a long time to get through this stuff. It feels like it is taking too long.
I am starting to wonder if I want to protect him from these stories because my feelings for him have changed. If I feel small and young, he seems "big" enough to handle it. But when I don't, I stuff the stories away and don't tell him about the flash backs. I guess I should tell him that.
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