Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 557681

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» GG » ...on neuologicals, et al

Posted by 64bowtie on September 21, 2005, at 14:59:51

(((GG))),

I put some thought into my answers... I hope you find me on your side and not confronting you... I sense we are closer these days than 18 months ago...

This is installment 1...
>
> Part 'B' of the issue is that the results don't change by your settling your mind about the exactness of my representations of the etiology of the model...

GG: True, but if I could put what you are saying into the language I learned about neurology, then I could form a better opinion of what you are saying.

Rod: That sidesteps my issue that you can do my process successfully without anybody’s opinion or blessing… Adulthood is always the next logical step to any life that is without it… What may be not so clear is that adulthood is everything a childhood is and so much more… Perhaps you key on the phrase “life was simpler then”… It was… You knew less to reflect on, and new stuff was everywhere and almost everything… However, recognition of the new stuff was limited to the immediate…

Allegory: kid comes running into his Mom, “I just saw a cat with blue eyes!” All the cats he had ever seen all had yellow eyes… Also, I am a child who wasn’t raised on TV early on (I’ve made up for most of what I’ve missed, many times over)…

So, many pieces of knowledge never passed in front of me in our little town of Walla Walla, Washington… In 1955, I remember the thrill and excitement of going to the "Clyde Beatty Circus"… To this day I remember how stunned I felt when I first saw the camels… I couldn’t imagine a camel in my frame of reference, and today its still a stretch… Dogs, cats, goats, horses, calves, cows, bulls, ducks and geese (did I mention chickens), oh, and chickens, mice and rats, and even snakes, but no camels… And the smell… For some psychic reason, I connected with the elephants, so they weren’t as much a curiosity as camels… Now that I am an adult, camels are to be approached cautiously; they spit, they kick, and they smell bad… Mmmmmmm…..lovely!

Rod

 

» GG » ...on neuologicals, #2

Posted by 64bowtie on September 21, 2005, at 15:10:56

In reply to » GG » ...on neuologicals, et al, posted by 64bowtie on September 21, 2005, at 14:59:51

GG,

Continuing on....

>
>The outcome is that, with the population of neurons being actually more in the 'gut' than in the brain at birth, and feelings end up being stored in the gut, it's likely that reasoning via feelings can leave us missing a better big picture of our lives as adults...

GG: See, here's where I am confused. Are you talking about the connections from the autonomic nervous system to the internal organs and mesentery? If so, I wouldn't necessarily characterize that as neurons "in" the gut. Rather, I would call it a connection to the gut. As far as reasoning via the gut, surely taking in the "data" from feelings and integrating it with the rational mind would lead to better "outcomes" in understanding what's going on with us? They don't call intuition a "gut feeling" as a derogatory, but rather view it as a useful tool.

Rod: I made a classic sophomoric mistake… I generalized, and I apologize… The corrected quote is that we have as many brain cells (neurons) in our STOMACH and INTESTINES as in our brain at birth… As a child, our 2 dimensional reasoning is supported by our storage of memories as feelings… While children, we reflect on memories such that if the feelings were good, we can approach, and if the feelings were bad, we avoid whatever is coming at us…

Operating as children when we are grown-ups is very unwise… We have so many more reflections that the approaching and avoiding can getting confusing… Whereas, as adults, we have much advanced memory management tools wired in at puberty, allowing much finer scrutiny of the information coming our way… When you share something here, I see you sharing, a lady from the ‘Buckeye State’, with slight features and your light red hair… I do this automatically, and couldn’t have mustered any of it up as a child… As a child I lacked the wiring…

Rod

 

Re:

Posted by gardenergirl on September 22, 2005, at 0:32:04

In reply to » GG » ...on neuologicals, et al, posted by 64bowtie on September 21, 2005, at 14:59:51

>
> Rod: That sidesteps my issue that you can do my process successfully without anybody’s opinion or blessing…

Rod, perhaps this is why we are struggling in our dialog. I'm not trying to do your process or to learn about it so I can do it. I view our conversation as theoretical and/or academic in nature. I'm trying to take what you are saying and integrate it with what I know so that I can develop an understanding of it.

>Adulthood is always the next logical step to any life that is without it… What may be not so clear is that adulthood is everything a childhood is and so much more…

Not necessarily...

>Perhaps you key on the phrase “life was simpler then”… It was… You knew less to reflect on, and new stuff was everywhere and almost everything…

That actually sounds more complicated and stimulating than simpler. Our brains are taking in and integrating stuff at a very rapid rate in childhood.

>However, recognition of the new stuff was limited to the immediate…

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

gg

PS: Just curious, but what are you doing to subject lines so they do not show up in replies?

 

Re:

Posted by gardenergirl on September 22, 2005, at 1:02:58

In reply to » GG » ...on neuologicals, #2, posted by 64bowtie on September 21, 2005, at 15:10:56

>
> I made a classic sophomoric mistake… I generalized, and I apologize… The corrected quote is that we have as many brain cells (neurons) in our STOMACH and INTESTINES as in our brain at birth…

Okay, I'm going to need a reference for this before I can accept it. Neurons by definition are cells in the nervous system. The stomach and intestine are not in the nervous system, although there are ganglia from the parasympathetic nervous system within certain organs and alongside others. It's not correct to call these "brain cells", although calling the components of ganglia "neurons" would be correct.

And considering how much synaptic pruning goes on in the brain in the first two years, and yet we still have billions of neurons in the brain and even more glia cells, it just doesn't make sense that there is even ROOM for that many cells in the stomach and intestines at birth or otherwise.
>
> Operating as children when we are grown-ups is very unwise… We have so many more reflections that the approaching and avoiding can getting confusing… Whereas, as adults, we have much advanced memory management tools wired in at puberty, allowing much finer scrutiny of the information coming our way…

True. But it's not an either/or premise. It's not either you are acting as a child or an adult.

>When you share something here...

Please don't post identifying information even if I have posted it elsewhere myself.

>I do this automatically, and couldn’t have mustered any of it up as a child… As a child I lacked the wiring…

Well, that and you didn't know me then.

But however did you remember your mother's image as a child if you lacked the wiring to form it?

gg

 

» GG » last things first....

Posted by 64bowtie on September 25, 2005, at 2:40:51

In reply to Re:, posted by gardenergirl on September 22, 2005, at 0:32:04

> gg
>
> PS: Just curious, but what are you doing to subject lines so they do not show up in replies?

<<< Not very mystical, I'm afraid... Simply put, I use the standard cut and paste steps that are available in most text editors... I do open a session of Notepad as 'holding zone' sometimes... I hope this will help... If not, I'll read your concerns and try again...

Rod

 

Re: More Installments...

Posted by 64bowtie on September 25, 2005, at 3:53:43

In reply to Re:, posted by gardenergirl on September 22, 2005, at 0:32:04

GG,

> >
> > Rod: That sidesteps my issue that you can do my process successfully without anybody’s opinion or blessing…
>
> GG: Rod, perhaps this is why we are struggling in our dialog. I'm ~ nature. I'm trying to take what you are saying and integrate it with what I know so that I can develop an understanding of it. >
>
<<< Rod: I apologize for rooting around in new and uncommon information... A lot has been said and believed over the last 150 years of mental health practices... Sometimes the simplest connections being made could have saved a lot of grief and a lot of medication... But what would you do if you couldn't keep patients for more than 5 to 10 visits??? Life-Coaches don't pretend to do therapy, even though some are properly licensed and certified to do so (I have over 400 email addresses for such folks in English speaking countries)...
<<< Surely you wouldn't challenge Dr. Phil McGraw... Yet he is the best Life-Coach I've ever seen in action... He doesn't pretend to be in a practice that requires weekly visits for 5 to 10 years in order to help folks with all their 'stuff'... He's not bashful about passing off to a therapist, someone who he suspects could benefit from lengthy 1 on 1 talk therapy when his style hits a snag or a wall with the client/family he is coaching...
<<< OhByTheWay, neither do I!!! What we have in common is vision which seems way different from those who only provide therapy... I don't yet measure up to the skills and abilities of Dr. Phil, and I'm not pretending to... I say only that our focus is similar... For anyone who is toooo broke to use my services, I even suggest they invest $10+ bucks on "Life Strategies" workbook by Dr. Phil... I lose more clients that way!!!

>Adulthood is always the next logical step to any life that is without it… What may be not so clear is that adulthood is everything a childhood is and so much more…
>
> GG: Not necessarily...
<<< Rod: If I add "...for most folks..." will that work for you??? The notion that adulthood, for someone who discovers that much of the strife in their lives originates in the unfortunate truth that they were not properly prepared for adulthood by their parents and significant others, might appear as a vague or vaporous mist compared to their very vibrant and comfortable existance in extended childhood... I mean, "Why Change?" and, "Change means loss!" With proper timing and nurturing, this is not the case...

>
> >Perhaps you key on the phrase “life was simpler then”… It was… You knew less to reflect on, and new stuff was everywhere and almost everything…
>
> GG: That actually sounds more complicated and stimulating than simpler. Our brains are taking in and integrating stuff at a very rapid rate in childhood.
>
<<< Rod: But wait! When we compare what we actually know as adults vs what actually "IS", what we know is like a bee-bee rattling around in a 40ft long rail box car... So, again, even as adults, new stuff is everywhere and almost everything... Make mine adulthood!!! I have a much better set of skills to deal with life on its own terms as an adult...

> >Rod: However, recognition of the new stuff (as a child) was limited to the immediate...

<<< Rod: The neuro-folks established a median time for retention for kids up to age 10 as commonly about 4 days; 1/2 of their memories last less than 4 days and 1/2 last longer than 4 days... A lot of what happens for kids is in their immediate time and space... Storing memories as feelings works well in the immediate... Just toooo many chances for the memories to return as distortions of the real happening when regulated by feelings... Ask any attorney about kids (10 and under) as witnesses...

I hope I am catching up to where you are in our discussion... Time gets away from me sometimes these days...

Rod



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