Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 543244

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Hmm.... Maybe....

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58

Maybe he's forgetting because he doesn't really want to hear it. Maybe he's being a big old jerky idiot because he thinks I'm moving farther from him and will terminate, and he doesn't want me to but can't say so.

Or am I stretching a bit.

 

I remember now

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55

In reply to Hmm.... Maybe...., posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21

I remember what he said immediately before I shut down. Out of all I had written, and all the replies, he chose the most optimistic statement to comment on.

Now why did that make me furious enough to be the little brat I've been being?

 

Re: I remember now » Dinah

Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33

In reply to I remember now, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55

Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58

> And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.

Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)

>The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.

But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?

???


> He won't help me get back the daydreams.

Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?

> It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,

But does he care about what is best for you???

 

Re: I remember now

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07

In reply to Re: I remember now » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33

> Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.

Yeah.

What would it mean to you (Dinah) if you don't need him anymore????

 

Re: I remember now - Falls and » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:44:10

In reply to Re: I remember now, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07

I've lost everyone, aside from my son, who is really important to emotional me.

I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.

I adored Bunty till the day she died. And I adored Harry till the day he died. And I adored Daddy till the day he died, even though I also hated that he hurt me. I adored them fiercely and without reserve. Adoring is important to me. Way more important than being adored. I just can't lose this.

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08

> > And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.
>
> Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)

I never think of myself as being intense. I always think of myself as being cerebral. Do I seem intense here?

>
> >The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.
>
> But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?
>
> ???

No, it's not.

>
>
> > He won't help me get back the daydreams.
>
> Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?

I loved them, and they made me feel good.
>
> > It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,
>
> But does he care about what is best for you???
>
>
He cares about what he thinks is best for me. It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by gardenergirl on August 25, 2005, at 5:43:06

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34

>
> I loved them, and they made me feel good.
> >
> > > It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,
> >
> > But does he care about what is best for you???
> >
> >
> He cares about what he thinks is best for me. It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.
>

Dinah, reading this reminds me of how good parents care about their children enough to sometimes set boundaries that the child doesn't like. But it doesn't mean they don't care about what the child cares about. They just make a decision based on different/better judgement at the time.

Is this something you can talk more about with him?

gg

 

Re: If it were next session » gardenergirl

Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 9:22:21

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 25, 2005, at 5:43:06

I think that talking about it with him is what causes the anger and really bad feelings. Because I know he'll never get it, and I know he'll never agree with me.

I have some thoughts on how to fix it, and I think I'll just go back to doing it on my own.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 15:13:15

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34

> I never think of myself as being intense. I always think of myself as being cerebral. Do I seem intense here?

Sometimes you can be fairly intense. AKA emotional you can be fairly intense...

> > But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?

> No, it's not.

Hmm...
I'm thinking autonomy vs paternalism. How much do you know whats best for you vs how much your t does... How much it is healthy for you to feel so dependent on certain people. I guess what I think is that you have talked before about SI if anything were to happen to your t. Do you think that is healthy? It is healthy to feel like your life is so dependent on another? And I think you feel hurt (about things being unrequited) at times. WAY hurt. Wouldn't you rather not feel hurt?

> It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.

(((Dinah)))
It might be worth talking about it. Saying that you need to believe that he HEARS what you are saying about this stuff at the very least... But I would say maybe to just aim for that rather than treating agreement as a criterion for understanding....


What is it about adoration?

And why particular people? I mean... There have been a few individuals in your life that you have felt this way about. One goes... Another comes along. If you lose your t, then someone else will probably come along.

I am not sure that I understand very well...

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 18:01:05

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 15:13:15

Adored ones aren't washing machines either. :)

They come along seldom, and are treated as the treasures they are.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:10:29

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 18:01:05

What do you think your life would be like if you didn't adore people in this way?

Why is that idea so abhorrent to you?

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:10:29

You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)

I wish I could do it with more people. I don't wish I couldn't do it with the handful of people I can be attached to.

I wish you a Bunty someday.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:22:57

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23

> You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)

Because I'm thinking of the consequences...
What are the consequences of it?
Coming back to the intense distress you feel at times...
Coming back to what you have said about what you might do if something happened to your therapist...

And so I'm wondering... I'm wondering whether those consequences are healthy / unhealthy. And I mean that in the sense of you feeling better.

> I wish you a Bunty someday.

What do you get from it?
I don't really understand that...

I mean... I figure it must be something pretty major (because you really don't want to work on changing it) so I'm trying to understand that.

But I'll admit... That I don't really...

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:36:46

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:22:57

>I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.

If you get better... Then I don't think you will view it as a loss. Or, even if you do appreciate that you are losing some things you will also appreciate that you are gaining some other things and so the loss won't feel so bad.

Is it... That you think you need to feel that way about someone in order to deserve their affection or something like that??

(Tell me to go take a running jump whenever you like)

I'm just trying to understand...

I wonder...

Katherine Mansfield once said:

'Why is it that we are so fond of the strong emotions? ... Because they make us feel alive'

I think I do feel this way about people at times...

Nobody in the real world...

But I feel that way about my idealisation of some people...

And then I try not to idealise

Because if I idealise then I'll only come to devalue as I come to consider they have fallen short of my ideal

(And the consequence is bad feelings)

It does feel wonderful to contemplate the ideal though...

It helps me feel alive...

But if it interfeares with a connection you could have with other people

(e.g., your husband, your son)

Then I think that that is a shame...

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:38:51

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23

> You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)

I didn't mean to imply judgement either negative or positive. I was just asking a question...

> I wish I could do it with more people. I don't wish I couldn't do it with the handful of people I can be attached to.

Maybe... There is only so much intensity of emotion / connection to go around... Using up that energy / effort on some people prevents those feelings being available for others...

> I wish you a Bunty someday.

Thanks
(I think...)

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:00:32

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:36:46

>>I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.

>If you get better... Then I don't think you will view it as a loss. Or, even if you do appreciate that you are losing some things you will also appreciate that you are gaining some other things and so the loss won't feel so bad.

Sorry - I didn't appreciate how bad that might sound. I did NOT mean to imply that you won't view the deaths of those as a significant loss. I was meaning to be talking about if you no longer felt such adoration for your t...

Those other people / pets...

Loss is hard.
Really hard.
And I don't want to undermine that.
But... Its not the end of the world
Of your world
Time moves on...
Other attachments emerge.
And we always remember those who have gone
And they are irreplacable in a sense
But the connection
The sense of connection
Is something that we can feel for others too
And so it is not that when one person / pet goes that our life is not worth living anymore because we will never have the opportunity to feel that connection again
Or at least... It doesn't have to be that way.
And if it is that way...

Well...
I feel sad about that.
:-(

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Tamar on August 25, 2005, at 20:09:13

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:38:51

> > I wish I could do it with more people. I don't wish I couldn't do it with the handful of people I can be attached to.
>
> Maybe... There is only so much intensity of emotion / connection to go around... Using up that energy / effort on some people prevents those feelings being available for others...

That’s interesting! I’ve never thought of it that way… I’ve always felt that there are no limits to love. I suppose it’s because I have three children and I don’t feel I have to divide up a finite amount of love among them… there just always seems to be room for more love. And that applies to my love for other people too.

Mind you, when I was depressed I couldn’t really feel much love for people. I knew that I loved my family but I didn’t really *feel* love for them.

However, I know you were talking about intensity rather than love, and perhaps that’s different.

 

Re: If it were next session » Tamar

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:17:34

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on August 25, 2005, at 20:09:13

> That’s interesting! I’ve never thought of it that way… I’ve always felt that there are no limits to love. I suppose it’s because I have three children and I don’t feel I have to divide up a finite amount of love among them… there just always seems to be room for more love. And that applies to my love for other people too.

Yeah. I agree that one can come to care for an awful lot of people...

Its the intensity of the feeling of connection that I'm thinking might be a bit more limited...

But then how is that the same / different from feeling of adoration?

I don't know...
Maybe I'm missing the point...

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:19:35

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:17:34

I guess it is like...

If you imagine the connection that you have with your husband (for example)

Could you feel that for 70 people all at the same time???

I don't reckon you could
1) There isn't enough time in the day
2) There are limits to how much energy we have.

Though behaving in a caring manner is different...

Make sense?

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 22:49:38

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:36:46

It's a separate thing from idealization. I certainly never have had any illusions about my therapist. I know what he is and what he isn't. And I didn't even have any illusions about Harry or Bunty.

I don't think I can explain it any better than I have. Either it's something you've never experienced so you can't see the attraction, or it's not something you value. Like I will never understand how people like to stimulate adrenaline.

But I do know this...

I've worked hard for that attachment. My therapist thought it couldn't be done. He didn't think I was capable of attachment, at least not to a person. He thinks it's a really good thing that I'm attached to him. And I probably shouldn't say this, but... No. I shouldn't say it.

But he doesn't think it's a bad thing, and neither do I.

He probably wishes I could feel it with more people, but so do I.

It doesn't have anything to do with deserving anything. It doesn't really have anything to do with the other person at all. I mean, it's at its best when it's mutual of course. But it's valuable even when it isn't mutual. Because connection to others is what makes life worth living.

Yeah, it leads to pain.

But no, life doesn't go on and you don't form new attachments. Technically, you might attach to someone down the road. Or you very well might not. But even if you do, it's not the same as you make it sound. It's not like it's part of the cycle of life or anything. It's just not. It's more like there's this space inside you that is keyed for only one soul. That space never gets filled and it never stops hurting and you never even want it to stop hurting. Why would you want it to stop hurting? When that's part of what keeps them close?

Maybe attachments come easily to you, but to me they just don't. And I treasure the ones I have or have had, like... I don't even have anything to compare it to.

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 23:27:01

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:19:35

I realize you don't understand, and that's ok. Maybe no one does. No one really understood why I wanted to marry my dog.

But maybe you could just think of me as eccentric, or crazy as a loon. I don't know that I want to try to keep explaining why it's important, or defending it to you.

Or maybe you could just accept that it's important to *me*. And that that makes it important.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 26, 2005, at 21:47:08

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 23:27:01

I'm sorry that you feel like you have to defend yourself. I didn't mean to do that. I do want to understand. Not because I want to talk you out of it or anything like that. But because I want to understand.

I agree... Connections do make like worth living. And they can be hard to come by.

And I really don't mean to make light of your past connections.

Is it okay to keep talking about it?
I promise to try and understand from my gut
Not my head.

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 4:21:03

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 26, 2005, at 21:47:08

Sorry.

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 30, 2005, at 5:45:30

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 4:21:03

It's ok Alexandra. It's just a touchy subject for me. And getting more so.


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