Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 543244

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Re: I » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 22, 2005, at 5:22:15

In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 17:46:52

> Harry Anderson used to do a juggling act with an axe. And he'd hold up the axe and say "This is George Washington's axe. The head's been replaced. And the body's been replaced. But it occupies the same space."

Yeah, thats it.
And if you put the old head and the old body together then you have the same problem: which one is Washington's axe?

> That sounds like an interesting idea for your doctorate.

Thanks. I guess I'll have to narrow it down one way or the other. But I'm more interested in the general view of listing the kinds of cognitive factors that are relevant (how much emotions can be reduced to desires for example) and considering the ways in which they interact.

Trouble is finding them in the brain.

I dunno. I expect I'll adopt a topic really.
I'd like to do emotions, though.
'Cause I don't understand them very well.

> I find it all very confusing. I just wish I *felt* more continuous.

Yeah. I don't know what to say. I don't really feel discontinuous except for the missing time. And really regretting stuff. That I've said and done. Different emotional states. Maybe it is discontinuity. I don't know. I didn't even know that emotions were the problem. I just knew I hurt. I didn't know it was my emotions.

> Or even broken up between Board Dinah and Work Dinah, etc. Breaking up by mood state is way more confusing.

Yeah.

I wish I didn't have emotions.
The felt quality at any rate.
But I guess we need emotions.
I wish mine were muted.
Theres gotta be a medication for that...

 

Attribution correction » Dinah

Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2005, at 19:37:32

In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 17:46:52

My husband informs me that I attributed the quote incorrectly. It was Michael Davis, not Harry Anderson.

My husband is great at that stuff.

 

Re: Attribution correction » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 22, 2005, at 20:01:47

In reply to Attribution correction » Dinah, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2005, at 19:37:32

never heard of either of them :-)

 

OMG, Guess what I did

Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 17:50:07

In reply to Re: I » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2005, at 9:25:07

I forgot to edit this out before handing him a sheaf of posts that included this. He laughed and said his feelings weren't hurt and it wasn't anything I hadn't already told him. I told him I was *quite* certain that I had never told him that. And he snorted with laughter and said perhaps not in these words.


> Emotional me always feels attached to my therapist and likes him. Rational me thinks he's a shallow moneyhungry boob. (Hmmm... maybe all of me thinks he's a boob, but in different senses of the word.)

 

Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah

Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:02:48

In reply to OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 17:50:07

I'm sorry Dinah, but I had to laugh, it just so reminds me of the sort of thing I'd do. Glad he took it so well.

 

Re: OMG, Guess what I did

Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23

In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah, posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:02:48

Well, it *was* sort of funny. At least since he wasn't mortally offended. He was reading this stuff with no more reaction than a comment that I'd make a good existentialist (which I don't think is true) when he suddenly burst out laughing. When I asked what on earth was so funny, he quoted that. I was mortified of course.

That's what comes from hurriedly printing out posts at 1:30 am the night before a 9 am therapy session.

 

Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah

Posted by Damos on August 23, 2005, at 18:57:41

In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23

ROFL, sounds exactly how I packed to go to NZ. Started at 11:30pm finished around 1:30am to be out the door at 4:30am.

 

Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2005, at 19:36:45

In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23

lol! well, i snorted when i read it so i can see how he found it funny. and imagining your mortified expression just makes the whole thing even funnier.

because of course he knows you love him really :-)

 

Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah

Posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2005, at 19:38:05

In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 18:23:23

Of course, there was some unconscious REASON that you left that in there... Any guesses to why you WANTED him to see it?

lol

 

If it were next session

Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 20:44:12

In reply to Re: OMG, Guess what I did » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 23, 2005, at 19:38:05

I'd be positive I unconsciously left it in to hurt him. But since it was last night, I think it was just that I didn't remember that I had put that in that post.

I gotta admit, it was pretty cool of him.

But now I hope that it *did* hurt him a bit (or a bit more than a bit), and that so did my post to Laura Beane that I read him quite deliberately.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50

In reply to If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 20:44:12

Maybe...

You are a bit upset about his not being upset... In the sense that if he really cared then he would feel upset that you (partly) think of him in that way

???

But... You have been seeing him for a long time. And I think he knows how important he is to you really.

Maybe... You are feeling numb / removed because that is a defence against something... Some other feeling...

I dunno.

Somebody said something to you somewhere and I thought yes! That sounds very plausible indeed. I'll see if I can find it...

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050813/msgs/545035.html

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34

In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58

It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in. But I don't think that it makes it inevitable now to do the hard work. My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever. I'm certainly no more likely to tackle the big issues, and probably less.

I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.

But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.

Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34

> It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in.

It might be true that if you opened a can of worms you would make headway on some issues ;-)

> My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever.

Yeah... But is that really what you want / what would be best for you?

> I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.

Hmm. With respect to 'I don't want you to grow away from me', I don't know that it would be very professional for him to say that...

> But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.

:-)

> Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.

Maybe its about the 'do you see me as a person or just another client' issue...

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14

I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.

And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.

But I still want him to say it.

I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20

> I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.

> And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.

> But I still want him to say it.

> I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.

But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...

I dunno... Haven't been in a good therapy relationship for long enough to get that stuff going on...

It sounds to me... And maybe I'm way off... Like a bit of a boundary thing. But then IMO the client vs person issue is a bit of a boundary thing as well...

And while we may think we want to cross that boundary we'd probably be mortified (or at the very least very hurt in the long run) if that boundary was crossed...

Because therapy is about YOU.
Your responses and your reactions and its not supposed to be about him.

But you kind of do want it to be about him.
But then you probably don't want it to be really...

And so it is complicated.

What would it mean to you if he didn't mind so very much?

What would it mean to you if he did?

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:30:12

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08

> But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...

I just mean that I think that is why we go. Because we want to get better. And along the way we get a bit confused about what getting better means, and what we need to get better...

But that if they lose sight of that... Well... Then we really are wasting our money on them.

I mean... Sure its nice to think that they will be a little sad when we go. And that they will miss us. But OF COURSE they are going to when you have been such a big part of their life for so long.

I don't know.

And I do get that reason and emotion are often opposed...

 

Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08

Welllllll.... Ok it gets sticky here.

He does care if I see him. He would dislike it if I decreased my frequency, both because he cares about me and because he likes my fees. But he cares enough about me to have thought of me when negotiating for his new job, and tried to work it out so that he could continue to see me twice a week. And he'd be really sad if I quit completely I think.

Not that he'd say it like that, of course. But I know him well enough to know he'd be good and angry.

So it's not really that he wouldn't mind seeing me leave, which is probably why I'm mentally punishing him by thinking of not going.

And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never. The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions. So if I'm not terribly intense, and need him less, and keep coming in twice a week that's probably his ideal. And since he never felt the intensity, he doesn't mind losing it, or not losing it really because he never had it. But he doesn't care that I lose it.

But it's important to me, and I think that ought to be reason enough for it to be important to him. There are some things that are important to me that just aren't important to him. He won't help me get back the daydreams. He won't help me get back this. And he doesn't even care enough to remember what I said about it.

It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about, and he's not willing to listen and help me recover the things I care about. He'll say he doesn't know how, but that's cr*p because there are plenty of things he doesn't know how to do but he still helps me. It's just the things I care about and he doesn't that he doesn't help me with.

He likes me well enough. He'd miss me if I were gone. And he cares about me. But if we disagree about what's important, he just tunes me out and becomes as dense as a post.

And I think they should matter if for no other reason than that they matter to me.

Although in general, if I didn't already know he wouldn't really like me to get all better and not need him, I'd be really really sad. Except if it's in his best interests for me not to see him anymore, like he's leaving town. Then he would want me to not need him.

Ok, there's been some boundary crossing over the years. But we've been together for ten years. And all the important boundaries are still in place. He's very firm about those. But the ones about caring about me as a person, not just as a client, and having mutual commitment, well, those are a bit breached. But they're stupid to begin with. Everyone deserves a therapist who cares about them as a person and would miss them if they left.

 

Hmm.... Maybe....

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58

Maybe he's forgetting because he doesn't really want to hear it. Maybe he's being a big old jerky idiot because he thinks I'm moving farther from him and will terminate, and he doesn't want me to but can't say so.

Or am I stretching a bit.

 

I remember now

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55

In reply to Hmm.... Maybe...., posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21

I remember what he said immediately before I shut down. Out of all I had written, and all the replies, he chose the most optimistic statement to comment on.

Now why did that make me furious enough to be the little brat I've been being?

 

Re: I remember now » Dinah

Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33

In reply to I remember now, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55

Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.

 

Re: If it were next session » Dinah

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08

In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58

> And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.

Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)

>The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.

But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?

???


> He won't help me get back the daydreams.

Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?

> It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,

But does he care about what is best for you???

 

Re: I remember now

Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07

In reply to Re: I remember now » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33

> Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.

Yeah.

What would it mean to you (Dinah) if you don't need him anymore????

 

Re: I remember now - Falls and » alexandra_k

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:44:10

In reply to Re: I remember now, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07

I've lost everyone, aside from my son, who is really important to emotional me.

I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.

I adored Bunty till the day she died. And I adored Harry till the day he died. And I adored Daddy till the day he died, even though I also hated that he hurt me. I adored them fiercely and without reserve. Adoring is important to me. Way more important than being adored. I just can't lose this.

 

Re: If it were next session

Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34

In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08

> > And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.
>
> Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)

I never think of myself as being intense. I always think of myself as being cerebral. Do I seem intense here?

>
> >The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.
>
> But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?
>
> ???

No, it's not.

>
>
> > He won't help me get back the daydreams.
>
> Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?

I loved them, and they made me feel good.
>
> > It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,
>
> But does he care about what is best for you???
>
>
He cares about what he thinks is best for me. It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.


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