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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cockeyed on June 14, 2005, at 2:06:29
I've been lucky to get a new T without a long wait. I was falling back into the void of depression. Black hole of futility.
Has anybody heard of or dealt with a therapy known as EMDR, "eye movement desensitization and reprocessing" dealing with PTSD. Not going "there", right now, but I find that in my life, whenever I most want to do something, I fail. Something as simple as tennis. I can play well, but at the key point, I just miss, or "choke" and that seems to have been a pattern thru my life. My old man's nickname for me wa "Ulysses" which he pronounced "useless" I realize I'm not useless until I personally want to succeed: then I get hung up.
I recently had to give up singing in a choral group because of recurrent attacks of angina on days of rehearsal. I've always wanted to sing and it took a lot to get my butt out there. But the rehearsals involved a long stressful drive, singing in an airless hot studio...blah, blah, blah. Anyway I had to quit because of angina...if you've ever had it, you know that it can be scary. I suspect it was caused in part by the sideeffects of celexa-had to quit that because of muscle pain. But, I wonder how much of the symptom came about because I was doing well altho I really had to work at it. I'm officially disabled and am finding that disability really is, well, disabling. having real trouble coping with it. Can't come to terms with it, and with the whole syndrome of "almost" but not quite.
But has anyone had experience with EMDR? Or with the "choke" syndrome? cockeyed
Posted by Tamar on June 14, 2005, at 7:20:20
In reply to New therapist, new therapy, posted by cockeyed on June 14, 2005, at 2:06:29
Hi cockeyed,
I'm sorry to hear about the black hole of futility and I hope you find your new T a good fit.
I haven't had any experience of EMDR, but it gets discussed in a thread earlier up the board (I think the thread starts with a question about talking about religion in therapy).
Like you, I'm curious about it!
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on June 14, 2005, at 8:02:06
In reply to New therapist, new therapy, posted by cockeyed on June 14, 2005, at 2:06:29
I have been therapy since Jan. with a T who specializes in EMDR. He was been doing it for over 10 years and has treated over 300 people. I did it once and it really helped me with my PTSD. I didn't think at first it did anything, but it did uncover some suppressed memories of abuse that happened to me. Just take it slow and really be sure you feel like you trust your T and it should go well. My T wants to do it more on me, but is taking it slow. I feel I am ready maybe to try it again. It is amazing how something that seems so wacked, actually works. EMDR.org or EMDR.com ( I don't remember exactly) gives a ton of information. Plus there are tons of books out there. I love that maybe I can have a EMDR buddy here where we can share our experiences with each other! :)
Posted by badhaircut on June 14, 2005, at 10:53:14
In reply to New therapist, new therapy, posted by cockeyed on June 14, 2005, at 2:06:29
I know "choking." That's a good way to put it. It may be that EMDR techniques applied in the moment may help you get past the choking, perhaps mostly as a distraction from the situation so you can take action despite starting to "choke." But you may want to reconsider even trying EMDR.
This is from Aetna insurance:
"A randomized controlled study by Pitman (1996) has shown that EMDR's most distinctive feature (visual tracking) is unnecessary and is irrelevant to whatever benefits the patient may receive. Furthermore, an article by Macklin et al. (2000) reported that at the 5-year follow-up evaluation of Vietnam veterans with chronic PTSD treated with EMDR, the modest therapeutic benefits observed immediately after EMDR were lost, and there was an overall worsening of PTSD symptoms over the 5-year in both the EMDR-treated groups and the non-treated control group."
When EMDR has been compared to any other kind of therapy, it's been shown to be a useless addition. Some think it a harmless addition, but I think that an active but useless component is too likely to create mischief.
That could certainly be true if EMDR "recovers memories" of abuse. Recovered memories are the among the least scientifically supported outcomes of therapy. Even on this board, you can read that recovered memories are very upsetting and don't seem to lead very often to directly improved lives. Why risk it?
You can read Scott Lilienfeld's "EMDR Treatment: Less Than Meets the Eye?" at
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html-bhc
Posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 13:34:24
In reply to New therapist, new therapy, posted by cockeyed on June 14, 2005, at 2:06:29
I have also experience the choking when I should be performing/competing. Very frustrating. I'm sorry yours is so overwhelming.
As far as the EMDR, I haven't done that therapy, and I"ve read about happyflowers postive experience and badhaircuts post. I think you should research the therapy from both the pros and the cons, and read about people's actual experiences with ii. I don't know how many personal experiences you'll find on these boards, but it's worth a search. I would guess that a lot of therapies have short term benefits, and that doesn't mean they're worthless, esp. when you've found yourself in such a black hole. I mean, among other things, take me off my meds, and there's only a short term benefit.
I'm glad that you didn't have to wait long for a T. I hope whatever the two of you decide to do, it's beneficial for you. And, BTW, you are NOT Ulysses!!!!!! No matter what ANYONE said! You've got to work hard to get that tape out of your head.
Jazzed
Posted by TerraJo on June 16, 2005, at 20:47:35
In reply to Re: New therapist, new therapy » cockeyed, posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 13:34:24
my T does EMDR but i don't. he says it's really effective for recent trauma, but not for past childhood trauma that's producing PTSD symptoms. metaphor therapy works better for that. EMDR can be triggering for some.
Posted by happyflower on June 16, 2005, at 21:07:01
In reply to Re: New therapist, new therapy, posted by TerraJo on June 16, 2005, at 20:47:35
> my T does EMDR but i don't. he says it's really effective for recent trauma, but not for past childhood trauma that's producing PTSD symptoms. metaphor therapy works better for that. EMDR can be triggering for some.
Actually EMDR isn't that new, it has been around for almost 15 years. It works well for current trama like rape, natural disasters, seeing violent crimes, etc. But it is well known for treating PTSD quite well. In fact it works great for vetreans suffering from past wars, and it is very good for childhood sexual abuse and physical, emtional abuse. I have used it to treat my PTSD from childhood abuse and it has done amazing things. There are tons of information about the effectivness of it for childhood abuse. I don't know where you got your information from, but it seems whoever told you this is a little misinformed about it. My T has been doing EMDR for almost 15 years and has treated sucessfully over 300 people using it, it works and I am proof. I had some of the worst abuse ever and it helped me so much. It won't help everybody but it is more humane than exposure therapy since you only think about the abuse for short periods of time like 1 minute and the EMDR almost immediately brings relieve. I do disagree with your T, you can search for easily for evidence. The only negative I have ever read on the internet( and I have researched it tons of hours) is one of the above posts. There are tons of postive things to read about. Check out EMDR.com and do a search. You will find out the informations I am talking about.
Posted by TerraJo on June 17, 2005, at 10:37:41
In reply to Re: New therapist, new therapy, posted by happyflower on June 16, 2005, at 21:07:01
as long as you have a trusting relationship with your therapist, emdr can be very effective. there is no question that it is very triggering for some survivors of certain types of childhood trauma, and this should be taken into account, and there is significant data which attests to this fact. bottom line is that what works for some doesn't necessarily work for all. building a trusting relationship with a caring professional will make whatever method you choose that much more effective.
Posted by badhaircut on June 17, 2005, at 11:29:34
In reply to Re: New therapist, new therapy, posted by happyflower on June 16, 2005, at 21:07:01
> The only negative I have ever read on the internet (and I have researched it tons of hours) is one of the above posts.
There's a great deal of EMDR criticism on the web. The prevailing opinion of those not directly relying on EMDR in their careers seems to be that AT BEST there is as yet no solid evidence. Quite a few studies – many of them mentioned at emdr.com – conclude that the effective part of EMDR has nothing to do with eye movement; benefits simply come from the portion of the treatment that's identical to exposure & cognitive therapy as usual. In practice EMDR is always combined with other techniques.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/9078/emdrism_1c.htmlOn the good side, there doesn't seem to be much actual harm reported as done by EMDR other than that suggested in my post up-thread. (There are a few anecdotes collected at an "EMDR Victims' Page" http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/9078/narrative.html.)
However...
•It is only in PTSD that there is any controlled, peer-reviewed evidence that EMDR works at all. This fact has not stopped some practitioners from promoting EMDR to treat Parkinson's disease, schizophrenia, multiple personalities, child behavioral problems, etc.
http://www.srmhp.org/0102/media-watch.html•The most recent and thorough review on the web is probably Grant Devilly's in 2002. He says EMDR is better than nothing, but the eye-movement part is useless.
http://www.srmhp.org/0102/eye-movement.html•In a long and apparently even-handed review, a 'Psychiatric Times' article concluded that "the primary literature on EMDR does not justify claims about its [superiority] to CBT. Nor is there any strong evidence that EMDR achieves its therapeutic effects through different or additional mechanisms" – such as eye movements.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p000741.html•In 1992 Gerald Rosen pointed out that training in EMDR seemed secretive and mercenary. "Participants in EMDR workshops must agree not to audiotape any portion of the workshop, train others in the technique without formal approval, or disseminate EMDR training information to colleagues." This is a serious, anti-scientific problem with the movement, if it still applies.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emdr.html•More recently, Rosen attacked EMDR's developers for "abusing and misusing" requirements of training. When other researchers fail to reproduce the amazing results claimed for EMDR, its proponents claim that the treatment wasn't done right, or fully, or long enough, or with adequate (now "Level II") training – even when certificates of such training are obtained from EMDR's founder. His critique of intellectual integrity in EMDR is here:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/9078/emdrism_2.html•Harvard's Richard McNally attributed EMDR's popularity to hype and "entrepreneurial genius." He outlined the similarities in the spread of EMDR to the spread of "animal magnetism" therapy in the 1700s. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/9078/emdrism_1a.html
•Brian Gaudiano said that news accounts of most new treatments, including EMDR, are predictably, thoughtlessly gushing and unskeptical. A Google News search today for EMDR confirms this.
http://www.srmhp.org/0102/media-watch.html•Grant Devilly's research papers on EMDR can be found at his web site, including the one for PTSD treatment in which eye movement was no better than staring at a FIXED point of light (Devilly et al 1998).
http://www.swin.edu.au/bioscieleceng/neuropsych/devilly/Publications/publications.html•A few skeptical, popular press accounts of EMDR are also available, like:
http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories/health/health_sense/091498.htm"One day, clinicians may find themselves in front of reasonable fellow citizens, having to explain why they waved fingers in front of a patient's face, when studies failed to support the miraculous claims made..." –Gerald Rosen
This is the end of the thread.
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