Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 480204

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Re: talking about it » daisym

Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 21:16:10

In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41

" And we talked about this today (again)-- that he is worrying. He asked if knowing that he was worried was taking away my "freedom" to talk about it -- as honestly and detailed as I wanted/needed to. It is really hard to answer, "how does knowing I'm worried make you feel?" I told him I thought he was a bit unfair over the weekend and he said, "totally." And he said with vehemence that he needed to reach me and I had moved really far away. *sigh* He said he'd rather have me mad and alive... *big sigh*
>
> It is a horrible position I've put him in, isn't it? I shouldn't fault him. He's so totally there for me. I mean, how would I feel if he didn't address all of this, wouldn't I think he didn't care? And wouldn't that be worse? "

Daisy - I think this is all important - that he cares and that you know it, and also that he understands you need to be able to talk about it. The T I had before my current T (who was also my pdoc) never really picked up on the subject of suicide when I'd raise it. It's not as if he ignored it - he acted pretty forcefully to bring my husband in to meet with us both after I told him I'd written a suicide note and when i would talk about it, he'd ask me if I was "at risk" which I always thought was a question I wasn't competent to answer. But that's about it - he hardly ever asked me follow-up questions and I honestly got the impression that maybe he thought it was better if i didn't talk about it. Maybe it was just his psychoanalytic background - just waiting for me to keep talking.

My current T has debunked the theory that it would ever be better not to talk about it. I really consider it to be sort of a gift - that she's made it a safe topic for me even if for all the times it's become a preoccupation, I've mostly chosen not to discuss it with her. Of course maybe it wouldn't seem like a safe subject at all if I really was able to convince myself that it was my only option.

Daisy, have you considered that some of what you're going through may be medication related? I think medication issues had a hand in both of the instances where I probably was genuinely most at risk. In one instance, getting off a medication seemed to help more than hurt and in the other just making a change from taking a med in the morning to taking it at night made a huge difference. I wasn't suicidal because of the meds, but I think they pushed me a little closer to the edge.

Mair

 

Re: talking about it » annierose

Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 23:50:00

In reply to Re: talking about it, posted by annierose on April 7, 2005, at 21:05:54

Annie,

I'm sorry I'm scaring you. I need a new topic, don't I?

My youngest is 13 1/2. Can't believe he is going to high school next year. The oldest is a sophmore in college and the middle one is going off to the University in the Fall. So they are set and on their way. They are terrific kids and I think will make super husbands some day. At least I hope so, after all they are still male and I can't do anything about that...:)

I know my therapist is just doing his job, so really, I do understand why he uses what he can.

 

Re: talking about it » mair

Posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43

In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 21:16:10

Mair,

I'm not on medications, except for sleeping. I tried an anti-anxiety med but it made me really depressed. Interesting that you brought this up, I called pdoc today to talk about ADs again. My therapist is encouraging this but very carefully. Last time I went to pdoc I got so upset and we both are very aware I can't take much more upset. She said she can't do anything until she sees me next week and she also wants to talk to my therapist. He said fine, he would talk to her, if it was OK with me, and I gave my consent but then fell apart in his office again. What is it about her that freaks me so badly?

He thinks I need help to get out of this hole. I'm terrified that the medications are essentially being used to shut me (little daisy) up. And I told him that I was afraid she would tell him that the answer is to cut back contact with me, force me to be strong on my own again. He said she can't tell him how we should do therapy together. He promised not to pull away.

*sigh* It is all so complicated and I'm so tired. It feels like a really long time until Monday. I wish Babble didn't get so quiet over the weekends.

 

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » B2chica

Posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:06:03

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

I didn't mean to, it just sort of happened. How are things today?

 

Re: Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » daisym

Posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2005, at 1:17:52

In reply to Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » B2chica, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:06:03

Daisy, I'm so glad you're posting often, again. A thought- maybe up until now, the little daisies who appeared were desparate for closeness and connection with him, but, right now, there might be one who feels it is safer to be more indifferent, detached and at a distance. Both these things have happened to me- I find the detached part is by far the hardest to bear. But he keeps saying, "I want ALL of you in here, even the parts of yourself that you don't want to know about, and that you don't want me to know about." We are working on the most detached part now, but I do feel better knowing that part, too, is welcomed and understood. We went through months of struggling with this, but it's better now that that part is beginning to know that she is welcome, too. It took months! These are just my thoughts and feelings- they may not apply to you

 

Re: talking about it » daisym

Posted by mair on April 8, 2005, at 11:08:46

In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43

I hate it too when Babble gets so quiet over the weekend because sometimes that's the only uninterrupted time I have with the computer.

I can almost guarantee that the pdoc isn't going to tell him to cut back with you and you should be able to trust him enough to know he's not going to draw back from you under any circumstances but especially not when you're in such distress. I don't know enough to speak to the issue of whether you'll lose little daisy. I do know that if you kill yourself, you'll surely lose her. The unfortunate part of ADs is that they take a while to kick in and the initial side effects can be tough to tolerate. With many of the ADs, the side effects dissipate afte a couple of weeks, maybe, so if you can hold on, it may be worth it. I'm now going through a new trial of a drug which is being added to the stuff I've been taking for years. The "cocktail" I've been taking has never really been enough and obviously didn't prevent the rather severe trough I'm in now. However, just the memory of how much pain I was in before we settled on those drugs is enough to keep me on them, I expect for the rest of my life. Finding a drug that worked even partially for me has made such a huge difference. I think you need to accept that there is only so much you can handle without drug intervention.

Hopefully you'll hear from other posters who are dealing with csa issues about whether taking drugs makes them less able to tap into the childhood memories.

I'll check in periodically over the weekend or you can babblemail me if you want. Unfortunately I am on EST. It used to seem to me that everyone was on Pacific Time and that no one was ever around when I posted earlier in the evening.

Mair

 

Re: talking about it » daisym

Posted by fallsfall on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:53

In reply to Re: talking about it » mair, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:04:43

Your kids aren't the only ones who need you.

I hope you can stay in touch with your therapist this weekend.

Please call him/me/a friend/911 if things get rough. You don't have to tough it out.

Love,
Falls.

 

Long time no see! » Pfinstegg

Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:52:20

In reply to Re: Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 8, 2005, at 1:17:52

"I want ALL of you in here, even the parts of yourself that you don't want to know about, and that you don't want me to know about"

There is so much truth in this especially since this age state is very ashamed about what happened at this age (9). I need a lot of help getting out the stories and her feelings. It feels soooo wrong. It is the first time I remember specifically being told not to tell, so I'm in trouble for talking about this. This age is terrified of being in the therapy room, and the waiting room is pure agony. I'm glad she doesn't drop in very often.

And unbelievably, in the midst of this latest crisis, little daisy was feeling left out and neglected. We discovered this on Wednesday when I showed up and said, "I have nothing to talk about today." (arms crossed, legs crossed, head down.) Hmmmm..."so," he says nonchalantly. "I guess there is plenty of room for little daisy to visit then, right? Do you think she has anything to say?" Urgg...trapped again.

How are things with you? I've missed you posting.

 

Re: talking about it » mair

Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:59:42

In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by mair on April 8, 2005, at 11:08:46

Thanks mair. I need encouragement around this. We talked about medications again today and I was completely in tears. I feel like I should be able to handle all of this better. At the same time, I know I need some help. I'm going to burn out my poor therapist if I don't pull up and out of this soon.

So, I promised to keep my appointment with pdoc on Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Re: talking about it » fallsfall

Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 1:07:51

In reply to Re: talking about it » daisym, posted by fallsfall on April 8, 2005, at 12:46:53

I think I do need to try to tough it out more, Falls. I need to begin to believe that my inner resources are not completely depleted.

I'm really going to try to not bother him this weekend. He extracted a promise that I would call if I really start having a hard time. Perhaps I should just stay in bed this weekend. (sigh -- too much work to do.)

It will be fine. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Re: talking about it » daisym

Posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2005, at 8:18:50

In reply to Re: talking about it » fallsfall, posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 1:07:51

You know, you "toughed" it out alone when you were little. How well did that work? Are you happy with the results of everything being secret back then? Do you want to repeat that now?

If your therapist is anything like me (and I really do like to (delusionally) think that he is... 8^) ) you will burn him out faster by keeping secrets than you will by telling him what is going on with you. When we don't know what is going on, we imagine things - and very (very) often, what we imagine is worse than what is real. Or we imagine 6 different possibilities because we don't know which is the real one, and we want to be "ready" for all of them. If we *know* what is true (even if it is pretty awful), at least we don't expend a whole bunch of energy on all of the things that *aren't* true.

So, do you want him to be thinking about the 5 things that aren't true for you as well as the one thing that is true, and figuring out how to help you deal with them, or do you want him to be able to concentrate on the one thing that is true and deal with that?

If we (your therapist, me, others here on Babble, your IRL friends) didn't *care* about you, we would just wait for you to decide to tell us what was going on and we wouldn't do any mental exercises in the mean time (note the dual meaning of "mental" - having to do with the brain, and mentally ill). But we *DO* care, so we *DO* think about you and "worry" about you - whether you want us to or not. And *NOT* telling us what is going on makes us work a lot harder.

So, if you don't want to burn him out - talk more, not less.

(((((Daisy)))))

P.S. I'm feeling a little better after *Talking* to you last night, but I'd still be happy to cuddle in the corner of your couch with you, or on the swing outside if it is nice weather (please?).

 

Re: Long time no see! » daisym

Posted by Pfinstegg on April 9, 2005, at 15:28:57

In reply to Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:52:20

Well, that's the reason I haven't been posting-a younger, very ashamed, sad and lonely-feeling pfinstegg was taking up all my time. She was trying to avoid everyone-even everyone here. My analyst and I have worked for a long time on finding ways for her to feel accepted and cared for, as is, and I think she's feeling better enough to allow me to feel like posting again! I want to say, also, that the art therapy has been a big help with the youngest pfinsteggs. Some of the most useful, although painful, sessions are when tears pour onto the pastels, and I can mess all around with them. I don't do it as often as I'd like, as it's another expense, but I do get a lot out of it. The art therapist is wonderful about translating these pre-verbal states into words, both to me, and in her communications with my analyst.

I know you're going to see a pdoc soon. It's probably a very good idea to see what all your options are. I found that I responded very well to the SSRI's for about 5 years, but then didn't. At about that time, I began taking an anti-psychotic, Zyprexa. That helped a lot with the emotional pain, but very rapidly made me gain 40 pounds and gave me metabolic syndrome (well on the way to getting diabetes, which does not run in my family at all). Once I stopped it, the whole situation luckily reversed within a year, but I know not everyone is so lucky. I do think the depression and pain of PTSD is difficult to treat.And I think, too, that part of getting good psychotherapy for it involves feeling even more pain. It's different from major depression or bipolar. If you do decide on an anti-psychotic, Risperdal in very low doses might be a good one to consider. And all that class of drugs help a lot with sleep. They make you so sleepy that you HAVE to wait until bedtime to take them.I think the thing everyone needs to do is check frequently to see if they are developing insulin resistance or higher fasting blood sugars- something I've not yet heard of a pdoc suggesting!.

Another thing which helped me, in addition to a lot of fish oil and B vitamins, was getting my thyroid checked thoroughly. The endocrinologist would not have treated me, because my TSH was only 4.5. But i learned here that it's better for mood disorders to have the TSH between 0.5 and 1.0. I learned here also that half of the thyroid supplementation should be as T4 (Synthroid), and half as T3 (Cytomel). Cytomel is short-acting, and I really do notice an improvement in my mood about a half hour after I take it morning and afternoon. (When you take these, you do have to watch for osteoporosis with DEXA scans, and take 1500 mg. of Calcium, 300 mg. of Magnesium and either 400 or 800 IU's Vitamin D. (This is a free pdoc consultation from an older pfinstegg, who tends to start talking and doesn't stop)

I'd be interested in how that visit goes.

 

Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg

Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 9, 2005, at 15:28:57

Thanks for all the free advice. I've been reading a lot about thyroid and it is on my list to have checked. Given that I'm surrounded by diabetics, checking blood sugars should be a breeze.

I'm glad the art therapy is helping. I don't like messy play much but perhaps my youngself might. I think she might be afraid of getting into trouble if she gets dirty.

Have you been able to verbalize any of the shame? I've found that I still can't much, even if I can tell about the events. What is happening is that as these feelings and events come up and out, the adult me has to keep reworking the "why did this happen?" question. It is impossible to now know these things and still believe it was "an accident" or "an over-abundance of love" or even a compulsion that took over. So much of the young kid stuff is about invented games, which had to have pre-thought.

And I'm playing out the scenario of telling on myself over and over again with my therapist. I'm so afraid he is going to get mad, so sure that each time I tell him something he is going to see the "real" me and cut himself off from me. It's that mother thing again.

I'm glad you are posting again. My appointment with pdoc is Tuesday. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Re: Long time no see! » daisym

Posted by annierose on April 10, 2005, at 7:51:40

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08

Daisy -
Is your pdoc appointment with the same woman from last time? or a new person? I remember how bad she made you feel.

I hope you are having a better weekend too.

-Annierose

 

Re: Long time no see! » daisym

Posted by Pfinstegg on April 10, 2005, at 21:20:09

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:40:08

I do talk a lot bout my intense feelings of shame. He always points out that I didn't do anything to be so ashamed of- my father did. But, you know, it is so complicated, because I somehow do feel that it is my fault. That I did something to encourage it, because of wanting so much to be loved- and, hardest of all to face, it was both terrifying and pleasurable (a little bit). I'm pretty shaky now about all of this, but I am aware of how strong, calm. loving and understanding my analyst is- I know I can count on him. I have had real outbursts of rage and anger at him, and I am slowly learning that he really doesn't turn against me because of it. He wants to know what's happening!

I'm once again giving unsolicited advice, but, if I were to do it over again, I would never have put that first SSRI pill in my mouth. They helped a lot at first, but, in the longer run, they can deplete your dopamine, and that it a horrible feeling- you don't care about anything, and the things and relationships that once gave meaning and pleasure to life no longer do. This is just my personal experience- not everyone's by any means. But it was shocking to me to see how different their long-term effects were
as compared to the short-term ones, which were wonderful. As you are talking to your pdoc, remember that not everyone has such a disappointing experience with the SSRI's. Also, the immediate effects can be really helpful, so, if you decide on one of those (or an SNRI), i think it would be good to think about using them for a relatively short period of time, perhaps a year or two, and then having a longer-term plan- perhaps without them. I'm sure others here, especially on the medications board, can give their experiences you if you ask.

I am now doing much better without any medications at all- just the thyroid supplements, fish oil and vitamins. But the therapy has probably made that possible, as I think I really did need the medications before. I still do experience horrible periods of pain, but I do feel that my analyst is truly *with* me now, inside, and that I can comfort myself, at least a bit, by drawing on the knowledge that he is really with me.

Just to make note of the fact that I feel I am coming back to life, I won a blue ribbon in dressage this morning in the gorgeous spring Virginia countryside!

I am very interested in what your pdoc suggests.

 

Congratulations! (nm) » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on April 10, 2005, at 21:53:01

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 10, 2005, at 21:20:09

 

Re: Long time no see! » annierose

Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 22:40:00

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by annierose on April 10, 2005, at 7:51:40

Annie,

I'm seeing the same person. I don't have the courage to meet someone new and "tell" again. I think it will be fine, I've been going over it all in my head and I think I know what to tell her and how to phrase it. She may want to talk to my therapist, and that is fine. He told me what he would tell her and what he would keep private. Mostly he is worried about how well I can cover everything up so she might not believe it is as "bad" as it is.

Thanks for worrying. I'll be fine. This is just another phase to get through.

Daisy

 

Re: Long time no see!

Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 22:58:45

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 10, 2005, at 21:20:09

I totally get what you mean -- the shame of feeling anything "pleasant", emotionally or physically, is a huge thing to figure out. It is all so confusing. I tend to project feelings of judgement onto my therapist, like I *know* he thinks this or that, especially about how much of this is my fault. It makes it very hard to stay connected when you are hiding so much of yourself.

I'm glad you've been able to internalize your analyst. That must feel very good when you get scared or lonely.

I'm researching medications. I don't know what I want yet, but I am thinking short term. But I can't stay this low for these really long periods. It effects everything. I'm trying to make myself believe that I'm feeling better, that there is hope to not always be in such great pain and longing. I keep pulling back everything I want to dump out, knowing that all that does is scare people, including my therapist. I guess the hope lies in the medications. 'cause something has to give soon.

I'll check in after Tuesday.

 

Above for pfinstegg (nm)

Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 23:53:45

In reply to Re: Long time no see!, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 22:58:45

 

Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg

Posted by cubic_me on April 11, 2005, at 2:53:33

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on April 10, 2005, at 21:20:09


>
> Just to make note of the fact that I feel I am coming back to life, I won a blue ribbon in dressage this morning in the gorgeous spring Virginia countryside!


Well done! I do dressage (and showing) and I always know that things are looking up when I am looking forward to future competitions.

 

Re: Sorry for hi-jacking your thread!

Posted by B2chica on April 11, 2005, at 12:50:24

In reply to Sorry for hi-jacking your thread! » B2chica, posted by daisym on April 8, 2005, at 0:06:03

anytime, besides it's all great conversation...no hi-jacking here...just lead in's to other thoughts!
b2c.

> I didn't mean to, it just sort of happened. How are things today?

 

Re: Long time no see! » cubic_me

Posted by Pfinstegg on April 11, 2005, at 20:56:16

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » Pfinstegg, posted by cubic_me on April 11, 2005, at 2:53:33

Is't it fun? I'm just a low-level amateur, but I do love it. I'm training for first level, so I can do a musical freestyle. How about you?

 

off topic! » Pfinstegg

Posted by cubic_me on April 12, 2005, at 5:57:27

In reply to Re: Long time no see! » cubic_me, posted by Pfinstegg on April 11, 2005, at 20:56:16

> Is't it fun? I'm just a low-level amateur, but I do love it. I'm training for first level, so I can do a musical freestyle. How about you?

I've been riding since I was born (horsey family!), but just do it as a hobby. I'm in the UK, so I suppose things are a bit different here. I've done some music freestyle (and loved it), including some pairs dressage to music and a couple of quadrilles to music. It's great fun designing what you are going to do.

What music do you want to ride to? I think the best bit is choosing the music.

 

Re: off topic! » cubic_me

Posted by Pfinstegg on April 13, 2005, at 7:24:03

In reply to off topic! » Pfinstegg, posted by cubic_me on April 12, 2005, at 5:57:27

I just saw a pas des deux and two quadrilles at the show last Sunday. They were absolutely wonderful to watch, especially the four 6-year old girls on their fat little ponies. I am thinking about the music a lot- I'm considering waltzes, jazz and Latin beats. We're a ways away, though, as he needs to be really confirmed at first level to be eligible

 

Daisy, how did your pdoc appt go? Thinking of you (nm)

Posted by annierose on April 13, 2005, at 20:18:44

In reply to Re: Long time no see!, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 22:58:45


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