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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 53. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
My therapist mentioned the idea of the T "psychologically holding" the patient this week -- i.e., without actually physically touching the patient. I know some of you have written about feeling "held" by your Ts and I guess I sort of can imagine what this means, but I'm not exactly sure.
If any of you can try to describe how this feels, how you conceive of it, when you feel this (in what contexts), etc., I would find that really interesting and helpful. I want to explore this idea a lot more.
Posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:22:00
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
OK, here's an analogy. It's kinda like being in a huge bubble composed entirely of super-soft pillows made of high thread count egyptian cotton. (But you are not suffoctated or anything, of course.) Life is momentarily suspended and feels all the more real because of it. Basically, it feels very safe. You can lean on someone and it does not hurt or diminish them in any way. They don't NEED anything from you, but instead are completely there, focused on you. You can safely be you.
It's hard to describe, I guess. What do you imagine it should be / what would you hope it to be?
Posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:27:07
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » crushedout, posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:22:00
Wow, that's a pretty good description. I can almost feel it as you describe it. I think that's sort of what I've imagined.I really just want to be held -- like, really held -- like a baby, forever, and cry and snuggle and nurse.
I think.
But I have to settle for this so I'm trying to find out what it is.
Yesterday my T and I talked about how I wanted my former T (who I left five months ago because it was hurting me) to hold me so badly. I felt like if she did, it would fix me. My T said it sounds analogous to being healed by the pope touching you on your forehead -- like I thought it would be magical. I never dared ask her to do that, though. I regret it now because I'll never know if that would have fixed me (as ridiculous as that sounds).
Posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:27:08
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
Let me revise a bit: Not a bubble, but a bed - a super-soft, super-luxious bed that you can so comfortably sink into. (not talking about anything sexual)
Posted by happyflower on April 8, 2005, at 15:46:33
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » crushedout, posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:22:00
Hmmmm... I would like to know HOW they do this? I wonder if my T was trying to do this at my last session. I told him at an earlier session that I didn't feel safe and that why I freaked out after my first EMDR treatment. I have never broke down in front of him because I am scared on what he will do. ( I have only had 10 sessions). I told him I would like to be held if I started to get out of control. But said there are other ways for him to make me feel safe.
Well this last session it was like he was totally focused on me. He was asking a ton of questions about me and what I wanted from life. It was so different than other sessions. It was either like a job interview or a 1st date! lol I even asked him, why all the questions, and he said he just wanted to get to know me better. What do you think?
Posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:48:56
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » PM80, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:27:07
Your wanting to be held makes complete sense. We are human. period. Humans like touch. In fact, if a baby is not held he/she will not gain any weight and will die. I had a good family friend that held me several times, while I cried(sobbed, really) around the time my mom died. It was not anything sexual; it was extremely comforting. Obviously, professional psychologists cannot be allowed to do this becuase of so many fine lines that really should not be crossed in most therapy situations. The good of this rule far outweighs the bad. But it doesn't mean the bad (consequences of having the no touching rule) doesn't exist. But psychological holding is real, and does feel real to the spirit. It sounds like you have a good, healthy relationship with your therapist.
Posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 15:52:53
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 8, 2005, at 15:46:33
Sounds like your therapist is a good therapist and completely appropriate, which is necessary for YOU to get better. It took me at least 3 months to begin to really open up to my T. I do not think this is unusual. I mean, come on, how can you feel truly safe with someone you just met (ie first few sessions)?
Posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 16:29:37
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 8, 2005, at 15:46:33
I had more thoughts; sorry to keep posting so much. I realized I didn't really answer your question. My therapist did/does this getting-to-know-me-better thing too. We don't only talk about strictly psychological and/or mental health issues. It felt/feels natural, and he has disclosed a bit about himself (which I gather is unusual).
I think that your therapist is trying to form a healthy bond with you. Clearly, he wants you to feel like a person, an individual worthy of his time. He views you as such; not as some mental patient who was inappropriate or psycho or overly-needy regarding your prior therapy. I think this person may be a good theraputic fit for you. Your letting him see the real you will come slowly; that is okay. He will probably never physically hold you; but i would guess that he will(and does) honestly care about you as a person and it will lead to, or perhaps is in itself, "pychological holding".
Posted by happyflower on April 8, 2005, at 17:11:21
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » happyflower, posted by PM80 on April 8, 2005, at 16:29:37
> I had more thoughts; sorry to keep posting so much.
Don't stop! lol Your are really making sense to me, and I think I might be getting it! lol
. It felt/feels natural, and he has disclosed a bit about himself (which I gather is unusual).My T discloses A LOT also. I think it helps me to feel comfortable because we have tons in common. But then the fantasies start, darn that transference! lol
>
> I think that your therapist is trying to form a healthy bond with you. . I think this person may be a good theraputic fit for you.I guess I am lucky because this is the first I have done T, so I am happy things are going well.
So is Psychological holding a FEELING of being suppported? Do T's do this purposely and what do they do to make you feel psychologically held?
Posted by fallsfall on April 8, 2005, at 19:32:51
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
For me it is feeling like I'm not alone. That my therapist cares and will help me. That he won't let me be "dropped".
This feeling exists outside of the therapy sessions, too. It is a feeling I can take with me whereever I go. That I can trust him and rely on him. It does have aspects of being held like a baby is held (of course, not physically, but psychologically).
Posted by Dinah on April 8, 2005, at 21:05:06
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
IMHO, it feels better than physical holding. The feeling is sort of the same, but better. More the sort of holding that you can only get when you're really small and can fit all the way in someone's arms.
I left therapy feeling like I was about to cry today, and I must have made a particularly pathetic sight, because he held both my upper arms. Probably as close to a physical hug as he thinks I'd let him get.
Psychological holding feels much much better.
Weird how tangible it feels.
Posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:24:17
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
Crushed,
You are really making me think! It is very hard to describe this, but you will know it when it happens. I think of it as a narrowing of the space, like it is just me and him, sort of frozen in a moment. It might be an emotionally intense moment of pain but more likely it is a shared moment of tender grief, after the storm, in those moments after a hard cry, in which you are spent and quiet.
It is feeling so completely accepted and understood that the very smallest nod of the head and the quiet, "I know" says it all. It is feeling safe in the silence without immediate need to break it.
The other time I feel it is when I'm struggling to describe something but I'm afraid to say it or I don't know how to say it, and I'll start to "go away" floating up to the ceiling or out the window. He'll say, very, very quietly, "please come back" or "it's ok to tell me" and I'll feel him making it safe for me to get it out.
Gosh, I'm still describing events, not feelings. But it is the best I can do. I agree with Dinah, way better than an actual hug. It is like one soul hugs another soul, it feels that deep.
Posted by crushedout on April 9, 2005, at 8:50:35
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » crushedout, posted by daisym on April 9, 2005, at 0:24:17
Daisy,
You're doing an amazing job of describing it, and sometimes I think describing events is the best you can do and maybe conveys more than saying the feelings. Anyway, I'm really interested in hearing all of your different experiences and thoughts about this (whether feelings, events, thoughts, contexts, whatever) and they're all really interesting and helpful!
Keep 'em comin'!
Posted by shrinking violet on April 9, 2005, at 12:41:25
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » crushedout, posted by Dinah on April 8, 2005, at 21:05:06
I've experience this a handful of times with my T.....
She has often brought up the concept of figuratively "holding" me, and whatever emotions I need to give her, but I never really understood the concept until I started to feel it.
I'm not sure what happened to bring it on, or why it never seemed to last past a week. I think, the rare times we had a very close intimate exchange (sometimes she'd hug me, sometimes not) or even exchange thoughtful emails, I started to feel very connected to her. It was like I could almost see this invisible thread that connected me to someone in this world (her), and I felt very cared for and loved. I'd never ever experienced this feeling before, so it was very new to me. During these times, I realized that I didn't feel the need to constantly reach out to her to know she was there (through an email, etc), b/c inherently I could feel her there, I knew she was there and secure in the way she felt about me and vice versa. It was a very warm, protected feeling. I often imagined myself sitting in her hands, or curled up inside her heart...That's the only "tangible" way I can explain the feeling. Even my mood improved during these times.
Posted by Shortelise on April 9, 2005, at 13:21:20
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
It's so interesting to think of this - something I have not thought of before. And it's the absence of it that I see, now, in the end phase of therapy.
It was a look on his face, a steadiness of gaze, a warmth of voice, and an openess of heart. It was a reflection of me that was good. It was a promise of safety.
It's different now. Not harmful, just different.
ShortE
Posted by happyflower on April 9, 2005, at 16:19:14
In reply to Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 8, 2005, at 15:01:08
So I am still confused.... Is phys. holding something special that they do or is it a feeling you start to get when you start to trust your T? I know I am being a challangeing phycho babble rookie, but I really want to know about this.
Posted by Shortelise on April 9, 2005, at 22:38:15
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 9, 2005, at 16:19:14
It's just a thing that happens when you tell about painful stuff. Things that would be easier said curled in the safety of someone's lap, said into the soft shoulder of a lover or a mother, or a close friend, but that are too dangerous or frightening or ugly to say in those places.
Our T's can't hold us physically, and maybe their way of holding is better for this purpose.
Does that help?
ShortE
Posted by happyflower on April 9, 2005, at 23:28:49
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » happyflower, posted by Shortelise on April 9, 2005, at 22:38:15
> > Our T's can't hold us physically, and maybe their way of holding is better for this purpose.
>
> Does that help?
>
> ShortEI think I might get it. But does the T do anything special to get you to feel this? Or will this just take time? I normally just say the bad stuff directly to the point with no emotion, like a robot. I guess I am just numb. How does the T make you feel supported or is it just trust that will comes in time? I have only had 10 sessions so far and am new to therapy so I have much to learn. Thank you for responding.
Posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:58:44
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 9, 2005, at 23:28:49
You don't have to tell, of course, but why did you enter therapy? And, do you know the orientation of your therapist? Some CBT practitioners don't really "do" emotional holding.
You said you are just telling the bad stuff directly, no emotion. I think as you build trust, both in your therapist and in yourself, you will go back and *feel* the bad stuff, and these powerful emotions lend themselves to needing to be held. Again, if the kind of therapy you are doing is more problem solving or seems to be about not thinking bad thoughts, things may be different for you.
Therapy is full of surprises. My biggest problem when I started was getting whammied when I left with the emotions, I couldn't access them during sessions. Now my biggest problem seems to be closing up these feelings and emotions so I can leave. I need a big therapy band-aid for between times.
Posted by happyflower on April 10, 2005, at 5:41:38
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » happyflower, posted by daisym on April 10, 2005, at 0:58:44
hi Daisym!
He is a clinical psychologist and as far as what kind of therpy he does, I don't know. I entered therpy since I was suffering from PTSD.( I started a new thread yesterday about the basics on why I am in therpy. What is CBT? I know he sees kids and adults and specializes in PTSD. He does EMDR for over 10 years and talk therpy. I have only had 10 sessions so far. I do feel the emotions but I try not to get emotional in therapy because I don't completely trust him ( I don't trust very easily. I let it all out either before I get their or after the session.**** When I was being beaten by my mother, I learned not to cry or I would get it worse. ****I only feel safe with my DH to show those emotions right now. My T is aware of this. I guess if you read my latest post it might explain more. I know he he will let me express my feelings but right now this is all he is getting from me. Robo Happyflower! lol
Posted by Dinah on April 10, 2005, at 11:04:11
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 9, 2005, at 23:28:49
I'm not sure if they *do* anything specifically or not. If they're taught the skill in therapy school or not. Maybe one of the therapists on the board could answer that.
It does have something to do with them. They have to be fully there, fully focussed on you, and with an open and receptive stance. If they're preoccupied or badgering you about something, it ain't gonna happen.
But maybe it's got something to do with us too. Maybe we have to be in the right frame of mind as much as they do. Maybe we need to be open and trusting and willing to seek them. I'm pretty sure it never happened during the first five years of my therapy. I may have gotten glimpses, but not the full thing.
And I *know* I'm now addicted to it. I can't imagine ever leaving it willingly, even though it's by no means a part of every session or even most sessions. As my therapist says (not about this of course) irregular and unpredictable rewards are the most effective sort.
I've talked to him about it in general before, but I have never talked to him about it while it was happening because it would be unthinkable to pull myself out of his metaphorical lap and analyze it.
Maybe I'll ask him about it next time I see him. I am relatively sure there will be no holding that time.
Also, for me it never had anything to do with disclosure at all. Some of the times I felt most held were silly little moments that had more to do with relationship than with me alone.
Posted by happyflower on April 10, 2005, at 11:13:28
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » happyflower, posted by Dinah on April 10, 2005, at 11:04:11
Okay I think I get it now! lol I think he was trying this with me last session. He was totally focused on me, asking a ton of questions, nothing got too serious. Everytime I tried to change the focus off me to somethng else, he went right back to me. I even asked him why all the questions, and he said he wanted to get to know me better. It was weird kinda like a first date or an interview. It felt totally different than our other sessions. I liked it, maybe that why I am more willing to trust him more and try more EMDR treatments. DO you think that this could be what happened to me? :)
Posted by mair on April 10, 2005, at 11:25:48
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by happyflower on April 10, 2005, at 11:13:28
I'm not sure I've felt "held" much, although I think the best way I could describe it is a feeling I've gotten when I've really allowed myself to feel the emotional support I'm getting from my T. I think she tries to show her care all the time but I can't/won't take it in much. On those occasions when I've felt totally but safely open and exposed to her, I guess I've felt that I was being held. for me it happens more frequently when I'm maybe more distraught than normal or talking about something that feels very painful to me.
I hope this helps.
mair
Posted by crushedout on April 10, 2005, at 14:57:19
In reply to Re: Psychological holding » happyflower, posted by Dinah on April 10, 2005, at 11:04:11
I think maybe I've felt it just when we've laughed about something together. I'm still trying to figure out what it is. But this thread has been very thought-provoking for me.
Posted by Dinah on April 10, 2005, at 15:16:50
In reply to Re: Psychological holding, posted by crushedout on April 10, 2005, at 14:57:19
My guess is that you haven't experienced it yet. It's like an orgasm. You might not know what it is you're expecting, but if you're not sure you've had one, chances are you haven't. And if you have you have absolutely no doubt.
It's something to look forward to though. :)
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