Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 480204

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suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*

Posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

this weekend i felt like taking a handful of pills again, but this time i wasn't suicidal per se. i just had an incredible URGE to do it. i didn't btw. but now looking back, though i've never been an alcoholic it almost seems like my suicidal ideation is like an addiction. to want that one drink, that bottle of pills. i didn't care about the 'aftermath' all i could think of was that moment and what action i wanted to take.

then last night i watched a lifetime movie "odd girl out" and got really wigged out cuz she attempted overdose. and it kinda triggered me, although the urge was there it wasn't like before. but it's wierd how my thought process change regarding the idea of suicide.
sometimes it's about wanting to die, sometimes it's obsessive compulsive about the ACT of suicide, other times it's this urge to do with not really wanting or thinking about the outcome.

does anyone else feel this way?
how do you view suicide/suicidal ideation?
b2c.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*

Posted by daisym on April 5, 2005, at 12:56:52

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

We've talk about this a lot lately in therapy.

I think it is about wanting the pain to die. Wanting to kill off that part of you that is hurting so badly. Or wanting to give up. Being too tired to live with it all anymore. To reach out and grab peace.

I also think, with me at least, that old feelings have been triggered off and there were probably suicidal feelings mixed in with the other stuff and it is all surfacing now. And as those feelings surface, I feel out of control and want to stop myself from doing anything hurtful to anyone else. It is extreme and overwhelming.

We've looked for secondary gains -- am I wanting to punish someone, or "prove" that I'm hurting THIS MUCH? Am I trying to get someone's attention? My therapist said that he thinks partly I'm trying to communicate the depth of my pain to him, which is why I'm willing to talk about it.

I think we do get stuck in the obsession. Suicide is seductive, it feels like the ultimate way to control the universe. To have an "out" if needed. It can occupy huge parts of our brain, like some other force is working on the plan, the method and the timing. I've described it lately as being in the clutches of something greater than you...one part *knows* this is a bad solution but some other part insists it is the right one.

Keep fighting these thoughts. Keep talking about them because I've found that they take over in a very scary way if you don't. It is amazing to me that you can be so split as to watch yourself considering this.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig

Posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 13:11:13

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by daisym on April 5, 2005, at 12:56:52

hey daisy.
>>'To have an "out" if needed'
-i know i've so much as said this to myself at times. i also like your word 'clutches' that's Exactly what it feels like! clutches that keep pulling me in telling me i'm past due, i'm supposed to be dead. other times it's like i mentioned-almost addiction? like the act need to happen.


>>Keep fighting these thoughts. Keep talking about them because I've found that they take over in a very scary way if you don't. It is amazing to me that you can be so split as to watch yourself considering this.

my T has mentioned several times about splitting. unfortunately it scares me cuz i feel like i'm less and less able to do this and am getting 'caught up' in moments more and more.
it's scary.

but as a side note. My T is great. i mentioned i thought i needed to see someone more than once a week and he suggested 3. it's great. i actually think i'm going to get through this. the weekends are hard. last sat. night i wanted to OD, but called hotline (turned out hotline was not for suicide-just my luck) and i ended up turning to SI, but i didn't od. and my T says his office has a 24hour number/pager or something-he tried to find it but couldn't so he'll give it to me tomorrow.
i literally feel like i might have a chance of getting through all this with him.

thanks for your response daisym. you really seem to 'get it'.
b2c.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica

Posted by daisym on April 5, 2005, at 13:21:08

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 13:11:13

I'm glad your therapist is there for you. It is really important. And you sound more hopeful than you have in a while. So keeping working and fighting.

I asked yesterday, "how much of this do you want to keep hearing? I've said it all before." He said all of it. If I'm having thoughts about it, he wants to know. So keep bringing it up.

btw, I was sort of forced to take steps this weekend to make myself safer so that when the clutches are at their strongest, it is difficult to act impulsively. I hope you can figure out how to do this for yourself too.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica

Posted by cubic_me on April 5, 2005, at 15:57:11

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

I understand you completely B2C, I have had very similar feelings to you. At the moment I am hardly showing any sign of depression, except suicidal ideation.

In the last few weeks I have figured out that often I think of suicide when I need to know there is an escape route (not neccessaraly death), for example if I am finding a lecture extremely boring, images of throwing myself down the lecture theatre stairs will pop into my mind and seem very appealing. Similarly when I am in a room full of people and do not feel like socialising I will look longingly at the window and think of jumping out of it.

When I am depressed, these thoughts are much more severe and troublesome, and while some are clearly because I want to die, others seem to have little basis in that, or the need for attention (except maybe self-attention and the need to show myself how much I am hurting).

I tend to try to let these thoughts drift over me now, as I know they will be there for a while and I don't have a T to work them through with. That method is working for me at the moment.

It sounds like you have a great T there - use him all you can in the time you have, I'm sure he will be of great benefit to you :)

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica

Posted by Poet on April 5, 2005, at 20:39:21

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

Hi B2chica,

It might be for me. Lately my T has been trying to get me to look back at bad things and knowing what I know now, what I could have done to defend myself. She tries to get me to say *I would have told someone who could help me.*

What I say each and every time is *I would have killed myself.* Last session she said that is not an acceptable method of protection.

All my methods of protecting myself from things I don't want to face are negative and addicting. I drink too much, I binge and purge and I have a nonstop mental tape of negative thoughts. It's like I am addicted to telling myself over and over what a failure I am and always will be. Thoughts of suicide are on the tape. Over and over.

Poet

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? ***si trigger* B2chica

Posted by littleone on April 5, 2005, at 21:37:50

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

B2c, sorry you are feeling this way. I am struggling with this myself at the moment and certainly understand what you're saying.

I think my urges are usually around wanting the pain to end or to have an escape from the pain available. Also, I've struggled with hopelessness a lot. When I can't see any hope, I get tired of trying. I don't see the point in continuing to try to go on or improve. So I try to stop instead. Hope that made sense. I'm finding this very difficult.

**si trigger follows**

Usually when I si it is either because 1) I'm feeling so much pain, the cutting creates a different type of pain, one I can handle, or 2) I'm feeling nothingness and the cutting makes me feel something, or 3) I'm feeling a lot of pain and the cutting makes me numb.

I can kind of understand how all these work and why they become addictive.

However, I had held off si'ing for quite a long time and the addiction to using it to change my feelings just wasn't there for me anymore. But I did get quite another obsession that I don't really understand. I just *wanted* to cut. I don't know if it was because I missed the cuts on my hand, or if I wanted to use the cuts to communicate my pain to people (even though they are usually hidden), or whatever. I don't understand the why. Even when I was feeling good, I still wanted the cuts.

And that's what your post reminded me of. Like sometimes you think about suicide as a solution and other times you think about it simply as an obsession.

The other thing that jumped out to me in your post was the strong impulsivness involved in your urges. I too find it very difficult to resist my impulses.

Sorry I couldn't help. Please know that I'm thinking of you.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig Poet

Posted by littleone on April 5, 2005, at 21:48:57

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica, posted by Poet on April 5, 2005, at 20:39:21


> Lately my T has been trying to get me to look back at bad things and knowing what I know now, what I could have done to defend myself. She tries to get me to say *I would have told someone who could help me.*
>
> What I say each and every time is *I would have killed myself.* Last session she said that is not an acceptable method of protection.

Oh Poet, this makes me feel so terrible. When I was younger, it just never occured to me to consider suicide as an option, maybe because it was what bad people do and I had to be a good girl at all costs (no offense intended to anyone, that was just a silly childhood belief I had).

Knowing then what I know now, I too think "I would have killed myself".

I'm afraid that telling someone who could help me is still not really an option I consider even today.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? ***si trigger*

Posted by cubic_me on April 6, 2005, at 3:32:19

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? ***si trigger* B2chica, posted by littleone on April 5, 2005, at 21:37:50


> However, I had held off si'ing for quite a long time and the addiction to using it to change my feelings just wasn't there for me anymore. But I did get quite another obsession that I don't really understand. I just *wanted* to cut. I don't know if it was because I missed the cuts on my hand, or if I wanted to use the cuts to communicate my pain to people (even though they are usually hidden), or whatever. I don't understand the why. Even when I was feeling good, I still wanted the cuts.


I am going through the 'wanting to cut' at the moment, and it is heartening to know that I am not alone. I'm sorry that you have had to go through all of this too though.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig cubic_me

Posted by B2chica on April 6, 2005, at 6:37:53

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica, posted by cubic_me on April 5, 2005, at 15:57:11

as always Cm, we're (unfortunatley) right in tune. man i hate those mental images, before i would get them they'd shake me a little. they sometimes still do but they are starting to become more emotionally attached. meaning before i didn't control them, they came -shook me up and they left. now it seems more often than not they come, they shake me up a bit and leave me with Extreme 'Urges' to follow through with them.
i like your description of letting them 'drift' over you. i'll keep you in mind when they happen again, i'll try to keep this visual of letting them 'drift'.
thanks.
b2c.

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig

Posted by B2chica on April 6, 2005, at 6:39:00

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

thank you all for your input. i value greatly your voices.
thnx.
b2c.

 

suicidal ideation *trigger* B2chica

Posted by Shortelise on April 6, 2005, at 14:55:54

In reply to suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trigger*, posted by B2chica on April 5, 2005, at 12:35:53

For me, it's an old, old habit, one I learned from my mother.

She always made it clear that suicide is a choice. If all else fails, if things get too painful, then a person can kill herself. That is what my mother always has said (yup, she's still alive) and that is what I still believe.

Lots of times I just wish I could do it. Even when I'm happy. It feels like the inevitable end of things.

But don't take a "handful of pills". At best you'll end up with a hangover - you could end up mentally or physically handicapped. That happens often with attempts that involve pills; they don't often end up dead. Imagine what it would be like to be inside a drooling, twitching body? Far better to get help than take a bunch of pills.

I wonder what the suicide urge says to us about ourselves. What does it say to other about us?

ShortE

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica

Posted by mair on April 6, 2005, at 16:05:43

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig, posted by B2chica on April 6, 2005, at 6:39:00

I'm jumping in pretty late here.

I know all about the seduction. I think of it as a siren song of suicide. I've been dealing with it for years - sometimes it's just fleeting thoughts, sometimes it's more of a preoccupation, and occasionally its become something of an obsession. It's always felt impulsive to me. I think if I thought about it for even a fairly brief period of time, I'd always choose not to kill myself. I've never been able to convince myself that my kids would be better off without me, and actually I believe I would do them great damage by ending my life in this way. I also have myself convinced that it would be horrible to try to commit suicide and fail and thus to me, the only sure method is to shoot myself. I don't own a gun or have easy access to one. I've decided that convincing myself that this is the only way to kill myself is actually a built in safeguard against actually doing it. In a strange way, it's my own self-protection. I've thought alot sometimes about buying a gun just to have one on hand, but I know that would be very dangerous for me because the impulse is sometimes so strong.

I'm pretty horrified by how easy it is for my suicidal ideation to be triggered. It honestly doesn't take much - feeling too much pressure at work, worrying about money or a bill I forgot to pay in addition to those irksome generalized feelings of worthlessness and despair. I'm not sure what my motivation is - sometimes maybe it's to escape pain and sometimes maybe it's just to escape a perceived embarrassment. If I'm able to step back for a moment, I can usually see that my reasons are pretty flimsy. Also daisy mentioned secondary benefits. I don't think there are any -I'm quite uncomfortable thinking about it, and extremely uncomfortable talking about it. And no one in the world knows what a preoccupation it can be other than my T and pdoc, so it's not like I use it as a threat with anyone.

One of the better things my T has done for me is to make me feel fairly comfortable talking about it to her. It helps me to feel less isolated in my suffering, and she's come to understand that I'm more talk than action, so she doesn't overreact. I think it's also made me feel more of a commitment to her to call her before I do anything disastrous, and I think she now trusts me more. She did point out to me yesterday that in the previous session, for the first time, I refused to promise her that I'd call her first, but I don't think that really shook her confidence much.

It's also interesting to me that she used to never enter into the equation at all when I'd think about suicide. In fact I used to fantasize that it wouldn't matter to her at all. Now I find myself imaging how it would affect her, both professionally and personally. It's annoying to me that I have to think of her as well, but I guess whatever works to stop me is probably a good thing.

mair

 

talking about it

Posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05

In reply to suicidal ideation *trigger* B2chica, posted by Shortelise on April 6, 2005, at 14:55:54

Mair said "whatever works" and brought up that her therapist is now part of her thinking.

I struggle with this too...and I told him I don't want to disappoint him or let him down. BUT, I was also really mad at him over the weekend (as mad as a depressed person gets) because he was really unfair -- using everything he could think of to get through to me. Like, "don't you think your kids will miss you? Don't they still need you? Do you trust (husband) to finish helping them grow into healthy young men?" He talked about grandchildren and future events and being part of that. He talked about my faith, and actually said, "Catholics believe it is a sin...how are you reconciling that?" Yes, I know, thank you! And he even said, "I will be devastated if you do this. I would miss you very much." He wasn't yelling at me (of course) and he was very calm and open, so it didn't shut me down at all.

But...isn't saying all that unfair? He even acknowledged as he was doing it that he was probably being "unfair" and asked me if he was making me feel guilty. He flat out stated that he refused to let me go. He did also ask if he was going about this the wrong way -- was he making it worse? He kept saying, "I'm really worried about you." But still...

I'm curious what your therapists have said and how they handle your worst moments.

 

Re: suicidal ideation *trigger* Shortelise

Posted by B2chica on April 7, 2005, at 11:42:18

In reply to suicidal ideation *trigger* B2chica, posted by Shortelise on April 6, 2005, at 14:55:54

very intriguing question.
b2c.

>>>I wonder what the suicide urge says to us about ourselves. What does it say to other about us?

 

Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig mair

Posted by B2chica on April 7, 2005, at 11:46:11

In reply to Re: suicidal ideation an addiction? *possible trig B2chica, posted by mair on April 6, 2005, at 16:05:43

nice metaphor: >>I know all about the seduction. I think of it as a siren song of suicide.

>>I've decided that convincing myself that this is the only way to kill myself is actually a built in safeguard against actually doing it. In a strange way, it's my own self-protection. I've thought alot sometimes about buying a gun just to have one on hand, but I know that would be very dangerous for me because the impulse is sometimes so strong.

this is EXACTLY what i've done. i won't allow any gun in the house, even though i love guns (i think the protection/power is the lure for me). but i can't own or even in house cuz i'm pretty 97% sure that i would use it on myself.

and this strategy DOES work for me, i'm glad it works for you too.
take care
b2c.

 

Re: talking about it Daisym

Posted by B2chica on April 7, 2005, at 11:55:25

In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05

it sounds very provoking to me. but there is a chance that maybe he didn't think you were looking at it from that aspect (global view). or maybe he was trying to provoke some anger issues out of you???
all i can say is be 100% honest about how he made you feel With him. if he p#$$ed you off, say it, if you felt guilty, tell him...if he can't take your response feelings-he's not going to help you any.

well the first therapist i had handled my worst moments by terminating...;^P
but this guy i haven't had any really bad moments yet....however when i talk about S. ideation or SI he is quite calm and reassuring that the thoughts are ok and that he wants to hear about them....get descriptive (how, what, when, where and why) to me this is Great. i actually want to talk about my S.ideation, i want to understand it. i want to get it under control (if that's possible). he also reacts quite well to my SI.
but in about three weeks or so i know that he will be seeing a side of me he hasn't before, so we'll see. however, i really get the feeling that he doesn't want to back out. he knows of my past attempts and current status and he at first mentioned (concerned) and wanted me in DBT along with ind. with him, but he hasn't brought it up again. he seems very comfortable about all this...that's Exactly what i need. i need a calm body/soul to guide me through these thick woods.
we all deserve that don't we?! i sure know You do!
take care
b2c.

 

Re: talking about it Daisym

Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:17:46

In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05

What your T seems to be doing would not sit well with me. I started thinking about my T entirely apart from anything I ever remember her saying. Both my T and my pdoc have let me know that children of people who commit suicide never really get over it at all - but I don't think even those were unsolicited guilt trip type comments. That information was probably imparted because I've frequently raised my children as being impediments to killing myself. Now when I think of them I don't just think about the effect of me not being around, but I also think about them having to deal with a suicide, and the possibility that they may feel responsible for it. (for awhile I came up with the idea of killing myself in a sufficiently awful car accident so they didn't have to deal with the suicide stigma)

So I guess the long answer is that I haven't discussed with my T the types of things you have with yours because, to my recollection, she's never approached it in the way yours has. She did spend several sessions a few years ago trying to convince me to check myself into a hospital and she raised it again very briefly last week. I've always been very resistant. However, her raising this issue (a few years ago) led to some very productive discussions about suicide and about my discomfort contacting her and helped her, I think, to understand when she has to consider me at risk and when she doesn't, and also helped me to accept that I could reach out to her.

mair

 

Re: talking about it Daisym

Posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:30:01

In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05

daisy - the other thing I wanted to say is that I think people search around for whatever works and play that card to the hilt. It sounds to me like this is what your T is doing although you make him sound a little desparate or grasping, which is not a good way to be.

A few years ago I spent alot of time on the telephone with someone who was seriously suicidal. The only thing that seemed to have any impact on her at all was her belief in reincarnation. She was really worried that her next life might be as a Taliban woman, for instance. I shamelessly kept raising this although I don't think it did a bit of good.

mair

 

Re: talking about it Daisym

Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 18:24:06

In reply to talking about it, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2005, at 10:34:05

My therapist isn't quite that obvious about it, but he will use our relationship. He'll say things like "But if you kill yourself, we won't be able to meet anymore."

But, since I don't reward him by responding well to that line of argument, he doesn't pursue it too much. Who says they can't be trained if you get them when they're grown. lol.

I'm not sure he's used my son unless I brought it up first. Of course, I can pretty much be relied on for bringing that up.

I just gave him new ammo, though, if he's wise enough to file it away and use it. We're a bit worried about guardianship for my son, don't want it to go where it would be most natural legally, and are not really happy with the alternatives. My husband and I have agreed (perhaps reluctantly on my part) that we both really need to stick around for the next ten or eleven years.

All he needs to do is raise the possibilities with guardianship, and I'll cling to life.

 

Re: talking about it mair

Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41

In reply to Re: talking about it Daisym, posted by mair on April 7, 2005, at 13:17:46

I should have said that I raise the idea of my children all the time by myself. Hence the "it will be an accident" plan. And he isn't pounding on me, he is "curious" about this or that. But he asks all the hard questions, the ones I keep asking myself.

And we talked about this today (again)-- that he is worrying. He asked if knowing that he was worried was taking away my "freedom" to talk about it -- as honestly and detailed as I wanted/needed to. It is really hard to answer, "how does knowing I'm worried make you feel?" I told him I thought he was a bit unfair over the weekend and he said, "totally." And he said with vehemence that he needed to reach me and I had moved really far away. *sigh* He said he'd rather have me mad and alive... *big sigh*

It is a horrible position I've put him in, isn't it? I shouldn't fault him. He's so totally there for me. I mean, how would I feel if he didn't address all of this, wouldn't I think he didn't care? And wouldn't that be worse?

 

Re: talking about it B2chica

Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:57:10

In reply to Re: talking about it Daisym, posted by B2chica on April 7, 2005, at 11:55:25

provoking anger...that is an interesting theory. I know that he really believes that if you can talk about the feelings it helps dissipate the intensity. And we've talked about how anxiety is a step "above" the black hole, as much as I hate it. And anger results in anxiety for me. So...hmmmm...

As far as handling my response feelings -- his biggest strength. Nothing I say seems to rattle him. I might worry him, frustrate him occasionally, but he just exudes calm. He counters well to smart-a$$ comments too. I think I don't want to hear the truth right now. All of me wants to believe that it won't matter one iota if I'm not here. It would make it so much easier.

 

Re: talking about it Dinah

Posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 19:05:05

In reply to Re: talking about it Daisym, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 18:24:06

Like I said above, I brought up my kids. The guardian issue was huge for us when they were younger too. But they are so big now, that isn't really an issue anymore.

Is it hard to know that your therapist is worrying about you? You've been with him for a long time...are you glad that he cares? Or does it make you feel like a burden? I feel both things.

Perhaps the correct response is just to respond...to make the person think twice or three times. We talked about the difference between thinking about it and feeling it. The feelings get so thick that the ability to analyze reasons rationally can't get through. So he said we have to work on that piece when we can and go for counter-response feelings as well. "Kind of like boxing," he told me. "Better to stay out of the ring but if you find yourself there, keep your gloves up and stay out of corners."

Such a "guy" things to say...

 

Re: talking about it daisym

Posted by pinkeye on April 7, 2005, at 19:09:02

In reply to Re: talking about it mair, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 18:51:41

Not really sure if this helps, but in the religions that I believe in, self annihilation is totally prohibited.

We believe in reincarnation, and the separatedness of soul and body. The soul undergoes many births and takes different bodies. And in each life, all the sins + goodthings accumulate to a cumulative total, and this total leads us to the next birth according the sum. So according to my religion, if we suffer a little bit in this birht, it is because we have done something wrong in the previous birth, and it something we have to undergo through no matter what - kind of like you have taken a loan and you need to repay it. Prayers to God and doing more good things to others eliminates/reduces the sin and reduces the suffering that you have to go through to repay the loan. Nothing else helps. Commiting suicide is considered even more sinful, since you take a life which God has given, and you will incur severe penalties for that.

According to our beliefs, if you take away your life, then for the rest of the period which you would have lived naturally, your soul will be wandering without a body, but it will have all the needs of the body, but no body to fulfill the desires. The soul will feel thirsty, hungry, tired, and lusty, and needing comfort, but since it deprived itself of its own body, it will have to remain hungry, tired, lusty, and no way to fulfill all these needs till the time when the person would have naturally died. And you incur these penalties by taking another birth and suffering more.

Not sure if it is a right thing to post here, but it is preached to all of us - hindus - so if you believe it could be possible, then it is a really bad thing to do for yourself. We feel it is better to live with whatever life we got for now and reduce our sins by prayers/good deeds.

 

Re: talking about it daisym

Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2005, at 19:29:58

In reply to Re: talking about it Dinah, posted by daisym on April 7, 2005, at 19:05:05

I think I'm glad he cares. Because it's so hard for me to believe he does, probably. So any indication that he does means a lot to me.

Our biggest move forward in therapy was when he winced when I talked about suicide. It seemed very genuine, because it wasn't a stagey enormous wince. It was more a private wince. I was so touched I offered him my promise not to kill myself without calling him first to give him a chance to "help", as long as he was my therapist.

I told him much much later that the huge irony was that this enormous event in our relationship could have been caused by a twinge of gas, or a foot cramp, and might have had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of conversation. He earnestly assured me that the wince was due to what I said, that he remembered the conversation. As if I'd believe **that**! :)


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