Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 359573

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Awesome newsletter for MPD/DID pts.

Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 21:22:59

In reply to In honor of those of us with MPD, posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 21:14:23

Please see.

http://www.manyvoicespress.com/

I receive this newsletter and I think it is wonderful! I bring it to t too. It has wonderful topics.

If anyone else has any great websites to share, please do.

Thanks.

Shadows.

 

Re: Awesome newsletter

Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 21:26:17

In reply to Awesome newsletter for MPD/DID pts., posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 21:22:59

I feel this newsletter would also be valuable to those who have been sexually abused that aren't dissociative. I feel this way, because the newsletter covers so many topics that effect all of us regardless of dx.

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro fires

Posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2004, at 21:40:12

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by fires on June 26, 2004, at 21:02:51

Funny, I don't care to use MY time reading links written by people who compare psychologists to practioners of "witchcraft". I read until it became evident what the author was trying to do.

The very first paragraph states that supporters of the dx say that DID "afflicts at least a tenth of all Americans and perhaps 30 percent of poor people." But there is no citation for this astounding figure. Hard to read past that, isn't it? Sure was for me.

Seems we just see things differently. Sometimes when people think so very differently, it's best that they think separately. Time for me to back away.

Emmy

> I don't care to use my time reading links written by people who compare scientists to Nazis and repeatedly use ad hominem attacks, then use the term: "big lie(s)." I read until it became evident what the author was trying to do.
>

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro

Posted by fires on June 26, 2004, at 22:53:41

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro fires, posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2004, at 21:40:12

I agree with your statement about it being time to back away.

This is a debate that could go on and on, ...

I do wish to say that my opinions have not been swayed. I don't even recall if I mentioned this at the beginning of my posts or not, so I'll tell you a little story. I've noticed that many here accept personal experiences more than scientifically observed data. Therefore the following story: I went to a skeptics lecture back in the early 90's when MPD somehow exploded on the psych scene. A went to Cal St. U., Fullerton and heard a neuropsych. from UCLA talk about the theory of repressed memories. He said that represssed memeories theory was contrary to scientific data about memory formation and retrieval, and also contrary to OBSERVED data. It was soon after the Northridge E-quake in So. Cal., and he made the point that the quake was the biggest traumatic event in many people's lives -- and they didn't have any repressed memories- in fact they had just the opposite-- they were haunted by the memories of the quake.

He assured the audience that the quake "victims" would not be forgetting the quake. Why should it be different for other traumas?

That's all. I have tons of other questions and have the desire to "study" the topic further -- I would love to see a taped interview with a DID patient when they are "changing" between ids. I think it would be quite enlightening to see if the person's language and mannerisms tuely change.

I was going to stop, but I just have to add this final tidbit : one psych. on tv years ago, claimed that one patient of hers was not allergic to oranges in one id , but was in another!! That seems scientifically testable. Would have loved to have heard the results of such a test.

That's it. Over and out. Best wishes to all. In the words of Rod Stewart; "forrrr... evvvverrr... yyyyoung."

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro

Posted by tabitha on June 26, 2004, at 23:37:07

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by fires on June 26, 2004, at 22:53:41

> He assured the audience that the quake "victims" would not be forgetting the quake. Why should it be different for other traumas?
>

I can see some differences. For one, being a victim of an earthquake, while no doubt traumatic, doesn't have the same elements of shame, betrayal, and utter horror that could accompany childhood sexual abuse by a trusted adult. There's also no stigma attached to being an earthquake victim. Those folks probably felt pretty sure they'd be able to tell their tales, and process them, without worrying about being punished or disbelieved. They'd probably even get a positive response-- have a good story to tell and so forth. Similarly for combat trauma victims-- there must be so much more shame and horror associated with those memories than those of being in an earthquake. I am not an expert on brain functioning-- as I don't think anyone here is-- but it seems feasible to me that some types of trauma might be processed differently than other types, or that some individuals might have different responses.

And don't many victims of other traumas such as auto accidents or shootings say that they don't recall the incident itself? Remember the story of the 'central park jogger', who was a victim of a horrific assault and rape? She has made a good recovery from her injuries, but still has no memory of the assault.

I don't think you have to look too hard to find documented cases of lost or incomplete memory of trauma. Just because *some* trauma victims have complete memories, doesn't mean *all* of them do.

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro TofuEmmy

Posted by tabitha on June 26, 2004, at 23:43:00

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro fires, posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2004, at 21:40:12

> Funny, I don't care to use MY time reading links written by people who compare psychologists to practioners of "witchcraft". I read until it became evident what the author was trying to do.
>
> The very first paragraph states that supporters of the dx say that DID "afflicts at least a tenth of all Americans and perhaps 30 percent of poor people." But there is no citation for this astounding figure. Hard to read past that, isn't it? Sure was for me.

Me too, Emmy. Well actually I did read the whole thing. It just seemed like one of those arguments where the person characterizes their adversary in such a twisted way that it's impossible to reject their conclusions. But it doesn't have much meaning, since it starts from such a faulty base. There's a name for it-- straw man argument I think.

 

Re: I found the missing link fires

Posted by crushedout on June 26, 2004, at 23:56:31

In reply to Re: I found the missing link, posted by fires on June 26, 2004, at 20:46:48

> 2nd point-- Why do you continue to offer me help for needs which I don't have? Does one have to be in need of help in order to post here?
> I think not.

Why *are* you posting here if you don't have any needs? You must have *some* need or at least a desire; otherwise, you'd take up knitting or something. What is your need -- I'm really wondering? I mean, other than "helping" people who keep making clear that your "help" is hurtful to them? What are you getting out of this conversation? I just want to know -- I'm not trying to help you (don't worry) -- although I'm sure plenty of other people here would be happy to if you wanted or needed the help.

 

excellent points tab, i couldn't have said it bett

Posted by crushedout on June 27, 2004, at 0:00:41

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by tabitha on June 26, 2004, at 23:37:07


er myself.

 

trying one last time

Posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 1:15:56

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by fires on June 26, 2004, at 22:53:41

It is obvious that the person that conducted the Seminar is richly invested in NOT recognizing the horrific damages of rape and incest. One must look at the motive for that minimization. Why would someone look into the eyes of a victim of incest and say something like this?

Fires, I feel you are transferring some feelings on to this board that do not belong to us. I have kindly asked you what was really bothering you and I got no reply. I have kindly asked you to put down this sword (as you stated). I asked you if you were dx with MPD and again I got no reply. I told you of my experience and you stated you didn't understand what I was referring too. Is this intensive focus on disputing therapy and MPD which is directed at me and others (victims of abuse) a diversion of undealt with feelings?

You stated you were backing off, but we are left with yet another post of comparing the memory compacity of Earthquakes to other traumas.

You stated that you lost your brother some where in a post. I am so sorry for your loss. It sounded like his passing was very difficult for you. I am so sorry for that. Is this what's really going on? Is it the pain of grief that is causing all this? I never lost a brother, so I have no idea what you are going through. I feel it is no coincidence you are here. I really don't think it has to do with this particular issue. We can talk words all day, but it doesn't go to the real heart of the matter Fires. What's in your heart that is causing all this pain? I don't hear your feelings Fires. All I read are websites, Freud, and skeptics on MPD. Where are the feelings? Please try to put that into words. I know it must be very very difficult.


 

Re: trying one last time

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 14:14:58

In reply to trying one last time, posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 1:15:56

What? I believe I have answered your questions many times. I don't understand your apparent need to see me as in pain, or in need of some "support" that is available here. It is illegal to practice psychotherapy without a license, so I would never come to a forum like this for it!

I've never been Dxed with MPD. Why did you assume I might have been? I've told you many times why I posted my anti-MPD theories links here. Please look at my previous posts.

>>>It sounded like his passing was very difficult for you. I am so sorry for that. Is this what's really going on? Is it the pain of grief that is causing all this?<<<

I think you are making far too many assumptions. I don't understand why you would ask the above questions? The "pain of grief" is not what caused me to make my posts. I don't understand why you would jump to that conclusion?

>>All I read are websites, Freud, and skeptics on MPD. Where are the feelings? Please try to put that into words. I know it must be very very difficult.<<

What? What's wrong with websites, and skeptics on MPD? Are there rules here that I'm not aware of? Why does there have to be "feelings" involved when discussing a topic which should not be influenced by them. As one of the cops and "Dragnet" used to say: "just the facts please."

Enough said.

Thank you

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 14:25:12

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by tabitha on June 26, 2004, at 23:37:07

>>And don't many victims of other traumas such as auto accidents or shootings say that they don't recall the incident itself? Remember the story of the 'central park jogger', who was a victim of a horrific assault and rape? She has made a good recovery from her injuries, but still has no memory of the assault. <<

That's generally not a memory loss problem. It's due to the victim being rendered unconscious. It's hard to remember something that you weren't capable of remebering, due to unconsciousness. (or temporary/permanent brain damage).

Thank you

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 14:30:18

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro TofuEmmy, posted by tabitha on June 26, 2004, at 23:43:00

>>The very first paragraph states that supporters of the dx say that DID "afflicts at least a tenth of all Americans and perhaps 30 percent of poor people." But there is no citation for this astounding figure. Hard to read past that, isn't it? Sure was for me. <<

I will attempt to find the source of that info.. Will you read them entire article If I do find the source? :)

Thank you

 

Re: trying one last time fires

Posted by antigua on June 27, 2004, at 14:41:48

In reply to Re: trying one last time, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 14:14:58

If we are going to cite references, I think it's important to place them in context, especially as to their "scientific viablity."

In "Memory and Abuse," Charles L. Whitefield, MD, who is a well-respected psychotherapist ("voted by his peers as being one of the best doctors in America") clearly makes the distinction between traumatic memory and regular memory. It has all the (scientific) arguments anyone could need to verify that we process traumatic memories differently, especially pre-verbal and very early childhood memories. These memories can be caught in our unconcious, trapped, and stay hidden until we are able to process them completely.

Furthermore, just in case you didn't know, I understand from my reading that the False Memory Syndrome Foundation was founded by a couple, an alcoholic and his co-dependent wife (who are also step-siblings believe it or not) in response to their daughter's accusation that her father had sexually abused her. The daughter is a well-qualified psychotherapist in her own right. The Foundation does not carry on any scientific research of its own, and primarily exists to aid people who have been accused of committing sexual abuse. Furthermore, at least one of their former board of directors members publicly stated that he believes pedophilia is an acceptable practice.

So, take what you will, but I'll stick with the facts.
antigua

 

Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro

Posted by tabitha on June 27, 2004, at 16:26:21

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 14:25:12

> That's generally not a memory loss problem. It's due to the victim being rendered unconscious. It's hard to remember something that you weren't capable of remebering, due to unconsciousness. (or temporary/permanent brain damage).

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you're assuming the only way to lose memory is to lose consciousness? I can think of a counter-example-- alcoholic blackout, where the person is conscious, yet loses memory. Apparently alcohol changes the brain's processing of memory. So to me it's feasible that trauma, which produces powerful chemical changes in the brain, could also potentially affect memory functioning.


 

Re: FMS vs. LPS...wxy and z now I know my abcs.... tabitha

Posted by zenhussy on June 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

In reply to Re: False Memory Syndrome vs. Lying Perpetrator Syndro, posted by tabitha on June 27, 2004, at 16:26:21

>> That's generally not a memory loss problem. It's due to the victim being rendered unconscious. It's hard to remember something that you weren't capable of remebering, due to unconsciousness. (or temporary/permanent brain damage).

> Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you're assuming the only way to lose memory is to lose consciousness? I can think of a counter-example-- alcoholic blackout, where the person is conscious, yet loses memory. Apparently alcohol changes the brain's processing of memory. So to me it's feasible that trauma, which produces powerful chemical changes in the brain, could also potentially affect memory functioning.

Well the studies I've seen about how trauma affects memory support what you've found feasible.

I thank you for seeing the possibility. I live the reality as many others here do as well. It is strange to have large missing parts of memory when other people can remember that age with noooo problem. For me it has been a constant battle with myself believing that I was crazy and something was wrong with me. I've been to enough doctors now and seen bunches (ok at least nine since age twenty) of therapists to feel reasonably reassured that I am *not* crazy and for the horrors I lived through IT MAKES SENSE that my brain processed it in a way that kept me alive.

erm, any ladies here want to talk about childbirth and memory? Do you remember the pain? And some of you went on to have more? WHY?? Didn't you remember how painful the first time was? Or did that memory store in a different way?

Forgive me if I'm not making sense but I've tried for years to understand memory and the more van der Kolk and Foa I've read the more I understand why I have so many holes in my memory and why that was necessary to my survival.

I very much appreciate your post Tabitha. I have no interest in tangling in this thread as I am not well enough to do so but having read a few posts yours stood out with a clarity I found refreshing.

zh
p.s. I can't WAIT to start painting our nails and having a slumber party! My therp. will laugh silly when I talk about this grand adventure we're all setting off to have. For me this is a good thing and I've got the thread printed out to try to get my responses back in. I'm incredible spacey so focus ain't my strong suit at the moment. You had better not be kidding as Daisy, Racer, and myself will hop out of this area and come your way in a flash. We girlies need this type of thing. I think it healthy and fun and I know my therp would agree. Therp. might be shaking their head muttering some stuff as I drove off but they would support it.

 

Re: FMS vs. LPS...wxy and z now I know my abcs.... zenhussy

Posted by tabitha on June 27, 2004, at 18:21:42

In reply to Re: FMS vs. LPS...wxy and z now I know my abcs.... tabitha, posted by zenhussy on June 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

> erm, any ladies here want to talk about childbirth and memory? Do you remember the pain? And some of you went on to have more? WHY?? Didn't you remember how painful the first time was? Or did that memory store in a different way?

That's another good example of self-protective amnesia. But actually I don't think this argument is winnable, even if we had some neuroscientists in here-- the brain is still too much of a mystery, and too little is known. I doubt it can be proven conclusively either way.

That's one of the scary things about therapy, right? It's more of an art than a science. It rests so much on personal truth and intuition.

I sense that the larger issue here is the question.. 'Are therapists trustworthy?'. My impression is that F may be trying to build a case for the idea that therapists are not trustworthy, and this debate about recovered memories is a means to that end. I could be mistaken, due to seeing it through my own filter. I find myself looking for skeptical websites about therapy when my trust in my therapist has been damaged. I'll build up a while new belief system about it. It's like I'm trying to devalue her, so I need her less, so the pain will be less. Then when the relationship is repaired, my belief system changes again. It's humbling, to see how much my emotions affect my intellect. I'd like to think there's some objective, invulnerable part of myself that can just think things through without being influenced by my pesky, uncontrollable emotions.

But I'm coming to believe it's really a trust issue for me. I've been told this in therapy, that I have trust issues, and I didn't really get what that meant, but it's getting clearer. This debate is illuminating it quite a bit.

 

Re: trying one last time

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 18:38:42

In reply to Re: trying one last time fires, posted by antigua on June 27, 2004, at 14:41:48

>>Furthermore, just in case you didn't know, I understand from my reading that the False Memory Syndrome Foundation was founded by a couple, an alcoholic and his co-dependent wife (who are also step-siblings believe it or not) in response to their daughter's accusation that her father had sexually abused her. The daughter is a well-qualified psychotherapist in her own right. The Foundation does not carry on any scientific research of its own, and primarily exists to aid people who have been accused of committing sexual abuse. Furthermore, at least one of their former board of directors members publicly stated that he believes pedophilia is an acceptable practice.

So, take what you will, but I'll stick with the facts.
antigua <<

Can you document that what you stated above is factual?

Thank you

 

Re: trying one last time fires

Posted by antigua on June 27, 2004, at 19:17:30

In reply to Re: trying one last time, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 18:38:42

It's all in the book, with 719 footnotes.
antigua

 

Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc

Posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 19:23:23

In reply to Re: FMS vs. LPS...wxy and z now I know my abcs.... tabitha, posted by zenhussy on June 27, 2004, at 17:04:15

Intellectualization =is the avoidance of unconscious conflicts by the excessive use of an intellectual guise of words, thoughts, or debate. "The current research by Dr. So and So from such and such university shows that the reason why people like get so depressed is because there is a chemical imbalance."

Defiance = is daring others to prove that you are wrong. "I challenge you to show me in the Bible where it says that smoking marijuana is wrong."

Arguing = is bringing up a controversy to side track the other individual. "My position is that ....don't you agree that I am right?" (While knowing quite well he/she will disagree.)

Displacement =is the transferring of a strong emotion from it precipitated object to a safer or more acceptable substitute. (The husband becomes angry at his boss at work then goes home and gripes at wife.) "I know that I am angry at the boss, but I just don't know why I am taking it out on you."

Analyzing = is an attempt to explain the cause for your failure, believing that that may resolve the issue. "I have thought long and hard on the problem and believe that it must have been precipitated from my exposure to too much violence on the T.V."

Excuses = is the use of logic that may appear to be acceptable to avoid an issue. "I think you can find someone more skilled than I to choose for the project."

Minimizing = is an attempt to make the problem smaller than it really is. "It was only a one night stand. It only happened that one time."

Questioning =is the means of firing questions at the potential intruder to keep him from bringing up threatening issue in your own life.

Silence = is using silence to protect yourself from talking about the problem. This is often the case with men in marriage. When confronted with the issue, the individual may just walk away or stand there and say nothing.

Self-deception = is deceptive thinking that is usually vocally expressed. "I don't need anyone's help. I can quit drinking anytime that I want to."

Repression =is the involuntary exclusion of unwanted thoughts or feelings from the individual's consciousness. "I just can't remember how I felt that day when that happened. I just don't feel anything."

Withdrawing = is deliberate removal of one's self from the situation. "This is the last straw... I can't stay in this situation any longer.... I am leaving."

Somatization =is the unconscious changing of a strong negative emotion into a bodily disease or abnormality. "I just feel too bad to go in to work today ... I probably have a fever."

Shouting = is using a loud voice to try to control the situation. "Don't tell me to shut up!! I will say what I want to say!!!"

Regression = is the reverting back to an earlier stage of immaturity. "I rather just set here and pout."

Undoing = is an attempt to make up (atone for or reverse the guilt by doing good in the place of the evil. "Please take this gift. It would really make me feel better after all that I did to you." (Of course, the undoing may become generalized involving others as well.)

Threatening = is using aggression to avoid facing an issue. "Don't ever bring up that topic again or I will make you wish that you hadn't!"

Isolation = is the splitting off a strong negative emotion or mental image from the individual's consciousness. (Being out of touch with one's emotions. In extreme cases there may be MPD.)
"I really feel sad, but I can't figure out why."

Manipulation = is trying to indirectly blame someone else for your difficulty. Then trying to get the other person to straighten up so that you can. "If you will quite bringing home all that fatty food, I will go on a diet."

Here's another website on Defense Mechanisms
http://www.cyberis.net/~innercom/TxDocs/defense.html

I thought these were interesting. I can recognize many of these in my own family. But, I wanted to point out that dissociation can be more than just memories and personalities. The mind can dissociate specifically emotions, physical sensations, thoughts, smells, tastes, and urges, etc.


 

one more def.

Posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 19:32:44

In reply to Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc, posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 19:23:23

Defense Mechanisms
Unconscious process used by an individual or a group of individuals in order to cope with impulses, feelings or ideas which are not acceptable at their conscious level; various types include reaction formation, projection and self reversal.

 

Re: trying one last time

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 20:11:54

In reply to Re: trying one last time fires, posted by antigua on June 27, 2004, at 19:17:30

Do you believe everything you read?

Can you site me the source since I don't have the book?

Thank you

 

Re: Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc

Posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 20:23:50

In reply to Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc, posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 19:23:23

I've been to several Ts in the past , and they said that everyone experiences dissociation. Like when you are so busy typing at the keyboard you don't "hear" the song on the radio. That doesn't mean we have multiple personalities!!

I'd suggest you go back to my post from csicop and read about how most MPDs get WORSE, not BETTER with therapy! Lawsuits have been won by patients against therapists. Now I am done.

No more posts about this topic here.

Good bye and good luck to all!

 

Re: trying one last time fires

Posted by antigua on June 27, 2004, at 21:13:23

In reply to Re: trying one last time, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 20:11:54

Of course not, I don't expect anyone does. Do you?
Sorry, don't have the time to go through the book for you. Too many references.
antigua

 

a one and a two and a

Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2004, at 22:17:21

In reply to Re: Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 20:23:50

Deep cleansing breath.

> Now I am done.
>
> No more posts about this topic here.
>
> Good bye and good luck to all!
>

 

Re: Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc fires

Posted by crushedout on June 28, 2004, at 7:06:51

In reply to Re: Defense Mechanism Definitions,etc, posted by fires on June 27, 2004, at 20:23:50


> No more posts about this topic here.
>
> Good bye and good luck to all!

This is the best news I've had all day. I hope it's true.

Did I mention that knitting is a fun hobby, fires?


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