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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Racer on June 26, 2004, at 4:53:19
In reply to Re: Yikes, are gifts really a boundary issue?, posted by Believe on June 25, 2004, at 23:22:15
My first example involves the first non-profit I was involved with. I was both on the board and in the trenches -- we were running on such a short budget we defined the phrase "working board." (Our board members were required to perform a minimum number of hours each year volunteering for our program, as well, which I've always thought was a great policy for any org that has volunteers.) The first time I sat through the volunteer training, and the issue of gifts from clients came up, I was thinking, "oh, how silly, never be an issue." I continued to think that every time I gave the training, too. The training did explain why we were never allowed to accept any form of gift and suggested a few ways to deflect them, but I'd never seen it on my own sites, so didn't think it was really an issue. Then, one year, during my volunteer time, I had just finished with a client who was both excited that she wouldn't be back because of a new job that meant she'd no longer need us and no longer qualify for our services (special blessings for that employer, who did hire a lot of our clients away from us with excellent wages, training and benefits), but she was also sad since she'd been coming to us for years and knew and liked a lot of us. She was even someone I recognized, despite the limited contact I'd had with that site. When we were done, and I had congratulated her on her new position, and she had walked away, I got up to get a soda from the vending machine. I didn't notice her come up to me until she said, "Oh, please, let me buy that for you -- you've always been so nice to me!" It was a very difficult moment, because our rules really did have to be very strictly enforced on the subject, which was a matter of some discussion at board meetings, but I didn't want her to feel rejected by my saying no. I ended up doing that, "hey, it doesn't make any sense but THEY say we can't accept anything like that, I wouldn't be able to come back if any of THEM find out." It didn't feel good, although it did seem to work in that she didn't feel rejected by me. Our rules had to do with tax law, and because of a very specific policy of that agency regarding immigration status -- basically, don't ask, don't tell -- we were a little paranoid about investigations. (We were also providing a very similar service to a federal program which DID do immigration checks, so that fear was probably well founded.) Had anyone involved with our program ever been proven to have accepted even that thirty five cent soda from a client or former client, we'd have lost our non-profit status, some of our board could have ended up in jail or losing licenses. There are times when someone really may be unable and not unwilling to accept a gift, but not able to tell you why.
The second example is much easier -- the only time a student ever gave me a tangible gift was when a couple of Japanese boys gave me a little gift before going home to Japan. They'd only been with me a short time, I was a little uncomfortable, but knew it was well meant and I still have it. (A little pin with horses on it.) If they'd been staying here, though? That would have been uncomfortable for me -- would their feelings have been hurt if I didn't wear it often enough? If I wore it too often would they think it meant something? What's too often? What's not enough?
You know the things that students and clients did give me, though? MEMORIES, and those I cherish. (Oh, and the crafts projects the little girls from summer camp used to give me! I still have every single one ever given me, and mostly still remember every single shining little face that gave it to me. Remember that every time you wonder if your T will remember you, OK?) I remember a woman who came to her first computer class with me afraid to touch the keyboard without someone next to her for fear she'd break it -- the last class session I was worried because I could see her beckoning me and someone else grabbed me before I could get there. No fear, she had learned that she wouldn't break anything that couldn't be fixed willingly, and figured it all out on her own! Seeing how much that chuffed her? Priceless, and something I'll never forget.
I've just deleted a long paragraph, because I realized I could go on with these memories all night -- insomnia -- but they're all the same thing: sure, I got paid for what I did. Sure, the relationship was not one of equality. Whether you look at it as me providing a service for a wage, or bestowing a service on a client who did not have access to a For Profit alternative, or have some other view on the whole student/teacher thing -- the relationship itself was *always* personal.
Thank you and good night...
Posted by bent on June 26, 2004, at 12:13:26
In reply to Therapy and gifts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 25, 2004, at 8:23:17
I think that giving a gift is ok as long as you keep in mind that it might not be accepted. And as hard as it might be to not feel rejected by that I think it's important to see it as the therapist's way of protecting you and your relationship. Maybe talk about it first? Tell the T you'd like to give them a little gift and feel out the situation.
I gave my therapist a little gift (like a stuffed animal) but it was very specific to my job (perhaps my subconscious way of wanting her to think about me more??). She took it quite readily. I didnt wrap it or anything just handed it to her. Of course we had to talk about what it 'meant', which was nothing other than I was thinking of her around the holidays. She was satisfied with that answer. It's in her office and I see it everytime I am there...or course I worry that she will throw it out when I am finished with therapy.
Sorry to go on. Just my two cents about gifts! If you are worried about it, talk about it first.
Posted by Believe on June 26, 2004, at 13:08:29
In reply to Re: Therapy and gifts, posted by bent on June 26, 2004, at 12:13:26
to me all this gift giving is either pathetic or pathological. like a really sad stalker.
Posted by lifeworthliving on June 26, 2004, at 14:43:30
In reply to Re: Therapy and gifts, posted by Believe on June 26, 2004, at 13:08:29
>>>> to me all this gift giving is either pathetic or pathological. like a really sad stalker.>>>
if giving a gift causes you to feel that bad, then i'm thinking it's probably something you shouldn't do. lucky for me (and my shrink?) i don't have those feelings... sure makes gift giving a lot easier!
Posted by daisym on June 26, 2004, at 15:01:08
In reply to Re: Therapy and gifts, posted by Believe on June 26, 2004, at 13:08:29
...such a sad commentary on your outlook about people's motives.
I don't want to debate this with you, I just think you've labeled the whole lot of us in such a negative way. I could say a whole lot more but ultimately I guess I feel sorry for you that you don't "get" anything out of giving and see the theraputic relationship as a sterile, oneside, "take and not give" endeavor.
No offense intended. To each his own.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2004, at 15:42:43
In reply to Re: Therapy and gifts, posted by Believe on June 26, 2004, at 13:08:29
Surely you don't mean to call these sweet people pathetic?
Their T's have helped them improve their lives, thus they feel gratitude. Many people when feeling this gratitude, like to express it. Some do it verbally, some do it other ways.
How is that at all similar to stalking behavior? Please elaborate on the comparison
Emmy
Posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 18:54:30
In reply to Re: Therapy and gifts, posted by Believe on June 26, 2004, at 13:08:29
so, you've never given someone you've considered a friend a gift? is it pathetic or pathological to give a friend a token of your appreciation?
i wonder, have you ever seen a therapist yourself? (now, i don't mean to imply that you 'need' to, i just wonder if you realize the bond you form with one. also, a therapist is helpful in retraining your thoughts and not speaking before thinking... and i think we all need guidance in that department, don't we?)
Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
In reply to Therapy and gifts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 25, 2004, at 8:23:17
Posted by rs on June 26, 2004, at 20:21:42
In reply to I love gifts and I love giving (life is a gift):) (nm), posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
Have to share on gift giving. When started with this therapist other parts did not like him neither did I. Anyway would hear many times how he was disliked inside. One day while was out shopping saw the perfect thing. This little bear and the saying was "I hear voices that say they do not like you." On the bottom was stamped with Sybil. It was just perfect and it sits on his shelf. So this was perfect at the time.
Posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
In reply to Re: Stalking comparison » Believe, posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2004, at 15:42:43
I am sorry for the posts I wrote earlier. All I wanted was a cyber spanking from Dr. Bob (transference much, huh?)
I've been lurking around this site for a couple of months now, and I picked this thread because I think - no, know - if I gave a gift to my therapist he would either reject it or want to talk about the "why" and "what was I hoping to get out of it". So I guess I envy those of you who can be that open with their therapists. And if I am brave enough I will let my therapist know about this and then one day post again.
Again, I am really sorry. It was bratty, rude and irresponsible behavior.
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 8:34:43
In reply to I am sorry, posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
Welcome to Babble.
I accept your apology.
I hope that you will want to post on Babble to get support, information and validation. We really are pretty good at those things.
It can be frustrating when the therapist always wants to know "Why do you want to do this?" or "Why now?". If you can be honest with your therapist and really try to answer those questions (as annoying as they are...) you can often learn a lot about yourself.
I'm hoping that you can start focusing more on learning and less on seeking punishment.
Posted by karen_kay on June 27, 2004, at 9:01:47
In reply to I am sorry, posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
i spoke out of anger and without thinking.
i think sometimes (for me, more than sometimes) we post things were we didn't mean, didn't actually read well enough for the intended mesage, or just plain didn't think about. i'm not suggesting you did, i'm suggesting i did and i'm sorry for that. i really am.
please don't think that babble isn't a very forgiving and understanding place. it certainly is, or i might not be around still.
please don't let this stop you from posting more. we all make mistakes, and i did this time.
if you need anything, please to feel free to email me at karen_kay12 at yahoo.com
i hope to see you around very soon! or, at least hear from you via email (ha ha ha! so i can tlak you into coming back :)
take care,
kk
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 27, 2004, at 10:18:41
In reply to I am sorry, posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
Wow - dang good apology! I love those. Welcome to the "Oy, Did I Mess Up Club"! I was once given their Lifetime Achievement Award. And an excellent job of self reflection. I'm impressed. :-)
Em
Posted by karen_kay on June 27, 2004, at 10:58:58
In reply to Re: I am sorry » Believe, posted by TofuEmmy on June 27, 2004, at 10:18:41
what mistakes can we make today? let's try to find out, shall we? oy! perhaps they aren't as bad if we make them together?
Posted by justyourlaugh on June 27, 2004, at 14:07:56
In reply to Re: I am sorry » Believe, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 8:34:43
"i hope you can start focusing more on learning.."
wow, i feel this statement was uncivil..
what makes you think because b has a point of view that is not like yours, she/he is not "focusing on learning"?
i hope b was not feeling put down and will return.
jyl
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2004, at 15:25:52
In reply to Re: I am sorry » fallsfall, posted by justyourlaugh on June 27, 2004, at 14:07:56
Wow, JYL, your post has certainly taken me by surprise.
I did not say (or imply, as far as I can tell) that Believe was not "focusing on learning". I DID mean to imply that I thought that s/he was focusing MORE on seeking punishment than s/he was on learning. I based this assumption on his/her own statement "All I wanted was a cyber spanking from Dr. Bob (transference much, huh?)" If I misinterpreted his/her post I certainly apologize to him/her.
I guess I'm also confused as to which points of view you think that s/he and I disagree on.
It was certainly not my intention to be intolerant of his/her views (although I do have a tendency to believe that if people disagree with me that they are "wrong" and I am "right" - this is something I work very hard on, and still have a long way to go with...). My intention was to welcome him/her to Babble and to encourage him/her to look for support here. I guess it didn't come across the way I wanted it to (since, at a minimum, you got the opposite message from my post).
So, my deepest apologies to Believe. I thought his/her apology was really wonderful, and I hope that s/he decides to be a regular poster.
Posted by daisym on June 27, 2004, at 18:41:02
In reply to I am sorry, posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
You know what? I'm going to do something completely out of character for me. You really hurt my feelings and caused a great deal of upset. Self-reflective or not, your apology doesn't make it better for me. I guess I'm just not "enough" to get past it right now. I have too much of this kind of stuff to deal with IRL.(Maybe this is my own transference.)
Please don't post to me if/when you return.
(I've never asked anyone that before)
Daisy
Posted by Pfinstegg on June 27, 2004, at 21:39:16
In reply to Therapy and gifts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 25, 2004, at 8:23:17
My analyst does not accept any gifts. There are times when I really want to give him something, and get so excited thinking I have found something he will really like, but instead, I get to talk about how grateful and loving I am feeling, or worse, that I might be trying to undo hostile or negative feelings- that's all, unfortunately! But I do love hearing about all the delicious and happily received cookies, etc.!
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 7:43:36
In reply to Re: Yikes, are gifts really a boundary issue?, posted by Believe on June 25, 2004, at 21:27:37
> I just have one question...
Please don't post under more than one name at the same time. If for any reason you feel you need to change your posting name, follow these steps:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#names
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 28, 2004, at 8:39:02
In reply to Therapy and gifts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 25, 2004, at 8:23:17
Thanks all for your ideas, opinions, and insight. I know I don't even have to ask my T about his feelings on gifts. I'm sure it would make him uncomfortable. I don't even need to talk to him about it.
So I'm thinking of taking the funny way out and giving him a card wishing him a happy Canada day (I live in Virginia). July 1 is Canada Day. A goofy idea, but at least it will be funny and maybe I can write some heartfelt prose in there.
However, it will be tricky trying to find a Canada Day specific card here!
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 28, 2004, at 8:49:03
In reply to I think I've decided what to do, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 28, 2004, at 8:39:02
I feel truly bad that my topic of discussion caused others pain (inadvertently thru the postings of another). I hate it when this happens.
This is a place for support and ideas and respect. I just don't understand it when others don't follow these rules.
So I'm sorry to everyone who was hurt by this thread. I know it is not my fault, but it is MY thread and I get so mad when someone comes in and ruins it and hurts those who are trying to help me.
Posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2004, at 8:53:14
In reply to Re: posting under more than one name » Believe, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 7:43:36
I feel slapped in the face by "Believe".
But, I refuse to be bullied into not providing support and encouragement when they seem to be needed.
I won't discuss trolls, posters posting under multiple names etc. because I will not give "Believe" the satisfaction of causing consternation on this board.
I am happy to discuss gifts, though. I used to make cupcakes for my therapist for our anniversaries - I would write the number on top with frosting. Then I started getting lazy and got Boston Cream Donuts (and wrote the number on top) - we both really liked the donuts, so I try not to feel too bad that I didn't "bake" for the occasion (one year I got two cupcakes from my mother and used those!?).
This year my current therapist and I were in the middle of a major crisis when our 1 year anniversary rolled around. I barely made it to his office, never mind baking or "reflecting" during the session. Maybe when the crisis settles down, we'll have a belated celebration. I wonder what it means that I was "rageful" (perhaps for the first time in my life) at him on our anniversary??
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 28, 2004, at 9:52:31
In reply to I am sorry, posted by Believe on June 27, 2004, at 0:12:51
We REALLY did not need this at this time. I feel, I FEEL, hmmm....just sad. Em
Posted by All Done on June 28, 2004, at 12:00:18
In reply to I think I've decided what to do, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 28, 2004, at 8:39:02
> So I'm thinking of taking the funny way out and giving him a card wishing him a happy Canada day (I live in Virginia). July 1 is Canada Day. A goofy idea, but at least it will be funny and maybe I can write some heartfelt prose in there.
>
> However, it will be tricky trying to find a Canada Day specific card here!Ooh, ooh! Perfect opportunity to make it yourself.
http://www.dltk-kids.com/canada/mcanadapaper.html
Or, maybe you could enlist the help of one of our Canadian friends?
I think it's a cute idea and I think having a way to express your feelings through your writing will be excellent for you. I'm sure he will appreciate what you write to him.
Let us know how it goes. If you'd rather, I'm at alldone72@yahoo.com.
Take care,
Laurie
Posted by All Done on June 28, 2004, at 12:09:08
In reply to I am sorry, everyone, posted by Miss Honeychurch on June 28, 2004, at 8:49:03
Please don't worry for one second about starting this thread! Trust me when I say I was about one minute behind you. I had the same issue and was ready to post myself. So, if you hadn't, I definitely would have anyway.
(((((Miss Honey)))))
I know there are many regular Babblers still around to offer the good support, ideas, and respect. You just might have to work a little harder to find them right now.
Do you visit Open. Or, if you ever want, you can e-mail me. I'm at alldone72@yahoo.com.
Take care,
Laurie
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