Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 350388

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Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER** toomuchpain

Posted by Dinah on May 25, 2004, at 10:09:21

In reply to U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 9:02:15

I'm with Gardenergirl. Considering the circumstances, I would think the agency would want to make reasonable accomodations for you and for your former therapist so that he can meet the condidtions laid down by the sanctioning committee, which include not contacting you. And you shouldn't have to lose a therapist you are growing to trust. Why don't you talk to her about it.



Posted by lucy stone on May 25, 2004, at 10:16:43

In reply to U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 9:02:15

I don't post much but I have been following this thread since the beginning. I think it is outrageous that you have to go through this again, and you certainly shouldn't have to change Ts AGAIN because of this guy. The office should be able to arranges things so that you do not see your old T and so he does not talk to you if you should happen to bump into him. My T has a partner but I very seldom see her. Their appointments are staggered so she is always in session when I arrive. Why can't your center make sure that he is safely behind closed doors when you arrive and leave? It is their responsibility to protect you from the trauma of seeing him. I think you need to call your new T immediately and enlist her help in this. Can you print out the above post and show it to her? If you aren't going to see her for a few days can you email it to her? The two of you need to make it clear to the center that they need to make sure that your path and his do not cross. Take care and know we care about you.



Posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 10:56:20

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by lucy stone on May 25, 2004, at 10:16:43

well when they told me that he was going to be at the center ...that they CANNOT control where he is at and when my appts are sooo... that leaves me to TWO OPITIONS

#1 deal with seeing him and continue to see my therpist

#2 leave that place and leave my therapist and start from Point A once again ..

i am havin hard time with this desion be cause i think the company is in the wrong for placing him there knowing there is a no contact contract between my former t .. myself and the company .. so if u guys were in my shoes what would be the RIGHT thing to do


Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER** toomuchpain

Posted by Racer on May 25, 2004, at 11:28:33

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 10:56:20

You know, I'm with gardenergirl, too -- I'm outraged that you're not being protected appropriately from this man.

I haven't followed this, so I don't know all of it, but here are a few thoughts that have come to mind:

Talk to your therapist, tell her what you've told us: that you're finally feeling able to trust her and don't want to lose that because it was so difficult for you to get to that place with her after your previous experiences. Ask her what *she* can do to help protect you. This isn't one of those snaky "dependency" issues, by the way, so make sure you make it clear to her that you don't believe it's about capital D dependency -- it's about making sure that HE ABIDES BY A SANCTION. Right? That means that accommodation should be made, no matter how difficult it might be for them. Since you were, it seems, the injured party and not a participant with a mutual share of that sanction, it shouldn't be unreasonable for them to make sure, at least, that he NEVER speaks to you. That, "how are you doing?" bulldropping really gets my back up, because he knows that he's baiting you and knows that no one will take you seriously about it. "Oh? He asked you how you were? What's wrong with that?" That, my girl, is abusive behavior. You have every right to be protected from abuse in a therapeutic environment.

Talk to your therapist about what she, herself, can do to help protect you from this turmoil. Frame it as another way to solidify the trust you're building with her. I don't know if there's anything she can do, but she may know of something helpful and effective. Until you ask her directly for exactly what you need, you don't know, either.

Is there a patient's rights advocate associated with this agency? That's another avenue to explore. Again, there may not be much they can do directly to help you, but having someone watching your back and ready to support you on this issue alone will probably help a lot more than you think now. (Been in similar situations.)

Right now, I'm betting the trauma you feel about maybe seeing him is getting into a wrestling match with the helplessness and uncertainty of the situation, and just magnifying everything. For instance, are you more afraid of seeing him? Or of not knowing when and where and whether you'll see him? In a similar situation, I know I would be so wound up about maybe running into him unexpectedly that I wouldn't be able to calm down enough to think about anything else at all, let alone useful things I could do to improve my safety. Add in the helplessness about not having any way to protect yourself from the abuse, and stir... Man, no wonder you're suffering so much anguish!

I wish there was something we could do more directly for you, but please know that -- based on the current sampling -- we all support you entirely in this. We're all pulling for you, and will offer what we can until this settles out for you.

(In hospital last year, there was an orderly who was really awful with women. Probably ten years younger than I, and treated me as if I were five years old. I couldn't stand to see his face after a few days. And he WOULDN'T LEAVE ME ALONE!!! I'm not a violent person, don't even have violent impulses in the normal course of my life, but I came very close to throwing a food tray at him one day when he just wouldn't let up. It was so overwhelming: here I was, failed at suicide, in total despair with no way out of the hell I was in, involuntarily hospitalized, in a hospital that did not offer anything beyond drugs and plastic forks for our protection, I hadn't eaten in nearly a week (no one said a word, by the way), and this guy is standing over me telling me I *have* to eat AND WON'T LEAVE ME ALONE. Later a couple of the men on the ward told me that they were appalled by his behavior, too, so it wasn't just me. I also heard him doing the same thing to other women on the ward. None of the men, he was really submissive to the men, but terrible with women. [OK, that means he was terrible with both sexes, but you know what I mean] Every time he was on duty I got eaten alive with worry about having him pick me again as his target. The last thing I did when I was finally released was to file a complaint against him. I was too afraid of reprisals to do it until I could get away, which made me feel helpless. Guess what? Filing that complaint really helped. It made me feel as if I *could* do something to protect myself, or at least I *could* *DO* something. I wasn't helpless. Makes a difference. I really hope that you do talk to the therapist and to a patient advocate about this, and I hope it makes you feel more powerful, too.)

Best luck, and be well.



Posted by joslynn on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:13

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 10:56:20

Can you at least ask your therapist to meet you in the parking lot before appointments, walk with you to ther office, then escort you back to your car after appointments?

That would accomplish two things: 1)You would feel more secure walking next to her and 2) He is less likely to pull any small talk BS if she is there.



Posted by fallsfall on May 25, 2004, at 18:03:38

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by joslynn on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:13


This is TOO much!!

Often therapists don't work 5 days a week. Can you find out when he doesn't work and schedule your appointments then?

Or ask for a special place to wait for your therapist, or for her to come to an outside door if you can park nearby.

There should be strict ENFORCED rules about what he and you can say to each other. "How are you?" sounds innocent, but it truly isn't. I saw my old therapist last week (for the first time since I "fired" her 11 months ago). She seemed happy to see me and asked how I was doing - in a way that made me think that she really did want to know, that she did care how I was. I said "good", and she picked up her next patient and left the waiting room. That simple (and kind) exchange really threw me. I want to have a session with her, I want her to care, I want her to tell me that I'm doing well, I want her to understand what I've learned (can you say "obsess"?). If she *hadn't* asked how I was, I would have been even more upset. I would hope that you could limit his vocabulary towards you to "Hi". That seems more than enough for him to say (if by chance, you do happen to bump into him).

And yes, just sitting in the waiting room not knowing if you will see him will probably be tramatic for you, too. That's why you need to be able to wait somewhere else. Or stagger your starting time or something.

Your new therapist should advocate for you and find a way to protect you. If she doesn't, then I think you should go back to the board where you made the initial complaint and ask them to set something up that will meet your needs.

You shouldn't have to lose here.



Posted by EmmyS on May 25, 2004, at 19:41:52

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 10:56:20

You may not love my answer, but it's the one that my heart is shouting out loud. My heart says, ask your T for an excellent referral to a safer place. That company has allowed this to happen. It does not appear place your health and safety high on their priority list.

I would like to see you safe in the hands of an agency with more heart than that. I know you have developed a bond with your current T, but perhaps that can act as a demonstration that it is possible to do this again?

This company has also ignored option #3. That is, leave there, and sue their socks off! I would at least document every single thing they say and do in regards to this issue. Track it all, with date and time. How can they possibly say that they cannot control when he is there? He is their employee. He has harrassed you. They are not using their noggins.

I don't know what state you live in, but in my state the Office of Mental Health has Mental Health Lawyers who are free. Also, the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill ( also has free lawyers. Not that I think this is the only way to go, but heck, it's something to think about. Can you tell that guy has got me steamed??

Please take care of yourself! Stay safe. You deserve so much more than you are getting. I hope you feel the giant group hug from all your babble friends. We all care so much about you.




Posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 22:17:21

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by EmmyS on May 25, 2004, at 19:41:52

well i called my t and talked to her about it and she did tell me that she is going to the director once again to find out why this has happened and tell him that it should have not happened .. that it is not fair on my behalf and she is also going to my former t but she would not tell me why .. all i ko she is pissed and she also told me that i should stay and she will find a way to amke it work .. but i so think it may be setting me up for something i am not so sure i can handle... i have dated and timed inncedents that have happend between myself and my former t .. because i will be contacting a lawyer and sueing i am fed up with all of this i am being shoved and pushed from every angle .. i worked to hard to get to where i am today and lose it all because of some therapist that seems to be on a power trip which is a abuse of power in this case ..


Whoa! Back up a sec! toomuchpain

Posted by Racer on May 25, 2004, at 23:15:37

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 22:17:21

Listen, you already know that I'm all the way with you on the issue of it being THEIR responsibility to protect you. I want you to know that I think calling your new T to talk about this, rather than waiting until something happens was a wonderful self-protection move. You've done a wonderful job of protecting yourself, and taking care of yourself.

This has to be a really scary situation for you, and I can only imagine how hard it is for you to get through it all. I'm so glad your T is living up to that trust you're starting to feel for her -- it sounds as if she is making a real effort not only to earn your trust, but to live up to it as well. That is something so important, and I can't tell you how much I envy you that. That's so very vital to therapy.

I'm even behind you on the lawyer part, although I'd say give it a few days before you do it -- but only because you sound so overwrought right now. The rule I try to live by is not to make any irretrievable actions in a state of such high emotional arousal, you know? Give yourself a day or more to think about something else, then decide.

The real thing I really hope you'll think over, though, is the part about leaving this agency. If you have a therapist who is DOING something to PROVE herself trustworthy, that's a very precious thing. Give her a chance to prove herself before you risk losing that. Honestly, right now I'd settle for a therapist who managed half that, and I can't stand that you're feeling so upset that you're thinking of backing away from that. It's really frightening for me when I start feeling as though someone is actually going to come through for me, and will actually help me when that's been promised. After anything to do with a guy like the old T sounds to have been, I imagine it's not easy for you, either.

I guess all I'm saying is, "Give your new T a chance to prove herself to you. It sounds as if she's trying to.

Be well.


Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER** toomuchpain

Posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2004, at 12:01:14

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 22:17:21

>>> "she also told me that i should stay and she will find a way to make it work"

Give her a chance to come up with a plan. If you are not comfortable with the plan she comes up with, then tell her why and see if the plan can be revised.

Given how much your former therapist hurt and abused you, your new therapist must be pretty good - since you have developed a positive relationship with her in a relatively short time. It also might be important for you to see that people in the world *WILL* go out of their way to protect you from danger. It certainly doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to keep him out of your sight, as long as everyone (including your old therapist) was working towards the same thing.

Don't let him abuse you again. (P.S. I think the lawyer thing is a fine idea... Particularly since he has violated the rules that the committee set out)


Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER** toomuchpain

Posted by terrics on May 26, 2004, at 21:07:38

In reply to U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER**, posted by toomuchpain on May 25, 2004, at 9:02:15

Just a thought. Do you even have to acknowledge your old T? I think not. terrics


heads or tails...*may trigger*

Posted by toomuchpain on May 26, 2004, at 23:38:35

In reply to Re: U WIN .. I LOSE **MAY TRIGGER** toomuchpain, posted by terrics on May 26, 2004, at 21:07:38

ok ok as it goes my new t spoke to my former t and boy what he had to say was very very interesting ... she spoke to him about his feelings towards me and what his intentions are and it is scary.. he told her that .. he was attracted to me and wanted me in his life that he cares for me and that he will do anything to show it or prove it .. SCARY to me...she says she is going to take this to someone outside the company .... so i guess that means she is taking some sort of action against him hmmm ...

i thought if someone cared about someone they would do wut is going to make the other person happy ... my feelings are that him going about this the way he has is not making me happy it is making me very sad and angry.. to think that this man that i confided my every last thought too could do this knowing his job/carrar is on the line ... at one point in time this man was my world the one i trusted,loved,adored.dependent,attached to ... he was my breathe when i couldnt breathe and help me through so much knowing this man could wreck everything he helped me to get makes me wonder what kind of person he is ... i want to blame myself for going through transference but isnt that a normal part if therpy? there was so many things i have said to him that i wouldnt tell anyone in the world not even my mother and me and her are like so so so close ...So my opinion that have come too is that he wants me to go insane .. i think he wants to see me cry and shake and to hurt .. he wants to see me cuts on my arm he wats to kno i am sufffering ..


Re: heads or tails...*may trigger*

Posted by gardenergirl on May 27, 2004, at 0:16:59

In reply to heads or tails...*may trigger*, posted by toomuchpain on May 26, 2004, at 23:38:35

Wow, what an amazing thing to hear. I just sat and struggled for the right word. Amazing is best I can do.

You are right, transference IS supposed to happen. The therapy relationship is supposed to be a safe place for you to tell all that you did. When he started to develop feelings for you, he should have immediately sought consultation, and then referred you to someone else if he could not overcome them. So, in some ways, it does make sense if he would have unconsciously wanted you to stay sick and depend on him, so he didn't lose you.

How sad for you both. It sounds like he is going to get into serious trouble, more than he has already. And you have had your safe therapy relationship betrayed.

I admire you so much for having the strength to try again with someone else. Please continue to use that strength to do what is best for you, whether you stay at that agency or decide to get a fresh start. At the very least, it sounds like your current T has strength as well, as she is bucking the powers that be at the agency.

Take care,



Re: heads or tails...*may trigger* toomuchpain

Posted by fallsfall on May 27, 2004, at 6:59:26

In reply to heads or tails...*may trigger*, posted by toomuchpain on May 26, 2004, at 23:38:35


You are right - he is not looking out for your best interests, neither as a therapist nor as a man. I am so impressed that you can see this - that you can recognize that his actions are hurtful towards you.

Your current therapist sounds like a keeper. She is recognizing the seriousness of the situation. She is confronting her employing agency, she is confronting your old therapist, and she is going outside the agency to protect you. She is also being honest with you - she didn't have to tell you what he said, but it sounds like she wants you to have as much information as possible. At the same time, though, she is "holding" you - protecting you by taking the actions she is taking.

Transference *is* a normal and important part of therapy. What you did and felt was appropriate. I'm glad that you can see that *he* is being hurtful towards you.

I'm glad you have your new therapist on your side - I get the picture of a knight in shining armor, there to protect you, the fair maiden. But I can't think of a name that goes with that picture that starts with a "B". Babble therapists' names have to start with a "B"... Time to check the book of baby names...

Stay strong, but lean on her and on us when you need to. You don't have to fight this battle alone.


Re: heads or tails...*may trigger*

Posted by Racer on May 27, 2004, at 12:41:06

In reply to heads or tails...*may trigger*, posted by toomuchpain on May 26, 2004, at 23:38:35

See? You're trusting your new therapist, and she's proving herself worthy of that trust, and that's building up more trust for her in you. That, my dear, is excellent -- and what's more, she's doing something concrete for you! Today's hot fudge sundae will have TWO cherries on it.

As for the situation itself, that whole business about "I'm attacted to her and want to have contact" is so outrageous I can't even begin to comment on it. Let me say that it's not about any actual caring for you on his part, it's about power and control and you are VERY well rid of him. He SHOULD be sanctioned, because that sort of behavior is so very damaging for someone in his position, a position where he can do so much damage to the most vulnerable populations. Makes you wonder why he chose this line of work -- but, frankly, I don't wonder very much. I suspect that it has to do with his own insecurities and need to feel powerful. That's not your problem, though -- it's his. I'm very, very glad that your therapist is making this move on your behalf. It's helping restore my own faith in therapists! Tell her she's improving client trust without even having any direct contact with the beneficiaries, 'K?

I'm sorry to be so shallow on this, TMP, because what I really want to do right now is tell you how much I wish you comfort and safety. My own current state just isn't allowing me much emotional slack to offer it right now, but the desire is there, it just can't be expressed right now. Please know that you have my prayers for continued support with your current therapist and continued growth in your ability to feel safe.


legal action ???

Posted by toomuchpain on May 28, 2004, at 11:08:48

In reply to Re: heads or tails...*may trigger*, posted by Racer on May 27, 2004, at 12:41:06

i got aphone call today from a lawyer askin about the situion and he proceeded to tell me that i have agreat case on hands and it up to me weather or not to go through with it ... so my ? to u babblers out there is should i obtian legal action against the company and my ex therapist??


Re: legal action ??? toomuchpain

Posted by terrics on May 28, 2004, at 14:57:39

In reply to legal action ???, posted by toomuchpain on May 28, 2004, at 11:08:48

You have to think this out carefully. It may be too detrimental to your mental health to take legal action. Yet on the other hand it might be a good idea. He sounds like he might be too dangerous, thinking he can get away with what he is doing. Think of yourself first. What is best for you? terrics


Re: legal action ??? toomuchpain

Posted by Racer on May 28, 2004, at 21:00:21

In reply to legal action ???, posted by toomuchpain on May 28, 2004, at 11:08:48

I've got a couple of questions for the lawyer, before you even consider the idea of following through on it. First, of course, is: how did he find out about this in the first place? How did he know how to contact you? Those questions would really bother me, because proactive telephone calls from lawyers always make me suspicious -- the lawyers I know wait for a potential client to come to them, and they're all lawyers I trust. (Well, since they're people I know socially and professionally, it's not surprising I trust them, but they're all reputable attorneys.) Calling a potential client strikes me as being a form of abulance chasing, and it really makes me nervous.

Second question is: how will he be billing? Is this a civil suit for damages? If so, is this going to be on contingency? If it is, he's got a stake in the case and in winning it, but make sure that his share is based on getting a percentage of the award, NOT on "when we win, we'll settle the bill." I know the rules in my own state -- attorneys get one third in cases on behalf of adults, one quarter on behalf of minors -- but I believe those rules are state by state.

The more important question, though, is whether you feel strong enough to endure something that even perfectly healthy people find overwhelmingly stressful? Find out what the statute of limitations is for this sort of thing in your state, and then use that as a timeframe for making a decision. Right now, it may feel as if you have to *do* something right now to strike back, and it may feel as if this is the right thing to do. You have time, though, to make this decision. Even if you do sue, the only thing that will happen right away is you'll lose the therapist you have now -- someone who has shown herself willing to act in your behalf. Is that what you want to do right now? Or would you rather give yourself some time to recover from this recent blow?

Best luck to you, whatever you do.


Re: legal action ???

Posted by steelmagnolia25 on May 29, 2004, at 21:36:46

In reply to Re: legal action ??? toomuchpain, posted by Racer on May 28, 2004, at 21:00:21

I'm not a lawyer, but I work in the legal field so my opinion might be worthwhile. It is DEFINITELY unethical for an attorney to solicit a client out of the blue. You should immediately question this attorney about his actions (if you even speak to him/her again) and gauge his explanation knowing that he definitely acted outside the boundaries of ethics. In my opinion, his solicitation is especially worrisome given that your situation, which apparently he knows about, stems from an exploitation of your vulnerability -- without making any assumptions, you should at least consider that this attorney might perceive you as an "easy target."

Additionally, if you want to pursue a civil suit, there is nothing wrong with lawyer shopping. When I had to choose an attorney for a personal injury case, I was very upfront with the 10 or so attorneys that I spoke with about the fact that I was "shopping around." This actually led to some interesting competitive bidding as well as good referrals when one lawyer felt another would be more suited to the case. In fact, you might seek ways to check out the attorney(s) reputation (association membership/officership, peer opinions, friend's opinions, extent of experience) and that can inform your decision.

The bottom line is that you have a choice and you should try to take every step possible to make one that will make you feel comfortable with your advocate.


Re: legal action ???

Posted by toomuchpain on May 30, 2004, at 10:52:25

In reply to Re: legal action ???, posted by steelmagnolia25 on May 29, 2004, at 21:36:46

i found out that lawyer is someone my t contacted... so now what i am still so confused on wut to do


Re: legal action ???

Posted by gardenergirl on May 30, 2004, at 11:42:55

In reply to Re: legal action ???, posted by toomuchpain on May 30, 2004, at 10:52:25


My goodness, no wonder you are confused. Just to clarify, it's your current T that contacted the lawyer? Please ask her about this. If the lawyer is giving advice to her, you definitely want your OWN lawyer. It's okay if they work together, but you need someone who will have ONLY your best interests at heart.

Also, as I think Racer said, check out the statute of limitations. You probably have plenty of time to make this decision. It's definitely NOT a decision you want to make when you are distressed. It probably feels like you want to take action now, and perhaps get some closure. But please take your time with this and get some solid support in place. It will not be easy.

Take care, and please let us know what accomdations are being made to help you avoid seeing your ex-T. If we could, I bet every Babbler would escort you in and out. Try to imagine us there with you when it gets hard.

Take care,



Re: legal action ???

Posted by pegasus on May 30, 2004, at 19:23:22

In reply to legal action ???, posted by toomuchpain on May 28, 2004, at 11:08:48

Hi tmp,

I agree with some of the cautions others here have mentioned. At the same time, I can certainly understand your interest in legal action. You've definitely been mistreated by this agency, and by your old t.

I'm just worried about the cost you might pay personally if you pursue legal action. I've been involved in a number of issues that led to legal action (through some volunteer work), and it can be really grueling for the victim. Especially if it goes as far as a trial. But even if it gets plea bargained, be sure that the opposing side (probably the agency?) would bring up every negative thing they can find out about you, to attack your credibility. It's not fun, although I've also seen victims who were able to take it feel really vindicated when they won. So, I guess that's the flip side.

In the meantime, I agree with GG: we'd gladly walk you in and out of your appointments. Actually, I'd be happy to go in before you and clear your old T out of the way before you enter. I'll just strongarm him into a closet or something until you're safely your therapist's door.



Re: legal action ???

Posted by crushedout on May 31, 2004, at 15:35:26

In reply to Re: legal action ???, posted by gardenergirl on May 30, 2004, at 11:42:55

I think Racer's idea of finding out the statute of limitations and taking some time to think this through makes a lot of sense. Only problem is that, as a lawyer, I know that that's a lot easier said than done. There's no statute of limitations handbook where you can look that up. It could be a couple of hours of research that you'd have to hire a lawyer to do. Unless this lawyer that contacted you is pretty smart and knows this area of the law well and can just answer the SOL question off the top of his/her head for you, which would be pretty keen. Then you could know how much time you have to think this over.

I'd offer to take a crack at the research for you, tmp, but I'm not sure if that's kosher, either per Dr. Bob or per my own potentially malpracticing rear end.


Re: legal action ???

Posted by toomuchpain on June 2, 2004, at 1:50:00

In reply to Re: legal action ???, posted by crushedout on May 31, 2004, at 15:35:26

i am going to see my t tomorrow to talk over the deatils of everything going on and what the process is.... 345 pm eastren standred time .. so i will be posting after that to let u all i kno... i am glad i have u guys on myside


so how did it go? (nm)

Posted by joslynn on June 3, 2004, at 12:12:55

In reply to Re: legal action ???, posted by toomuchpain on June 2, 2004, at 1:50:00

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