Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 350498

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Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger

Posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:27

Well, many of you know that I have PTSD due to childhood sexual abuse. I've been in therapy for about 13 years with the same therapist and have tried a few other therapies along the way. Right now I'm doing EMDR once a week along with my once weekly therapy. My EMDR is supplementary and my regular T is in charge (who's really great).

Well, today I had EMDR. We had been working on connecting with the little girl who experienced the abuse. I have some memories, but don't have flashbacks, just intense feelings. Mostly I'm paralyzed and can't move when I'm faced with a disturbing situation and I've learned in the last six months about how I disassociated (didn't know I did it or even what it was). So now I know. I understand the goal of my therapy is to integrate the little girl w/the adult so that I can accept/understand/feel, whatever, what happened to me so it won't continue to blindside me in my present day life.

So that's where I was this morning. Today I learned that I not only have one little girl, I have two! I'm out of my mind over this. There is my body, the good girl, who took it, and then there is the evil me who floated away and laughed/criticized, humiliated, etc. the little girl with the body. I recognize that the "evil one" (only word I can use) is really my anger, but it feels like I'm two totally different people?

And I always thought I was a nice person, but I've discovered how hateful I've been to myself.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone at all? I'm so confused. I see my regular T tomorrow so I'll make it until then, but this really scares me.
antigua

 

Re: Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger

Posted by DaisyM on May 25, 2004, at 18:14:13

In reply to Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:27

Antigua,

I can see why you are so upset. I'm just discovering the young girl who is hurting. But I recognize that it is my adult self who hates her and wants her to go away. We are actively working right now on allowing her voice and her feelings.

Maybe it would be helpful to think of this as two states - Young child/angry -- young child/passive, instead of two different people. Just like all children have to recognize that happy them is still them, mad them is still them, etc. It sounds like it might be about forgiving yourself.

I hope your Therapist can help you make sense of all of this. I struggle against the roller coaster ride of when memories come up and when they are quiet. It has been a long haul for you but you are so brave to stay with it and keep trying. I look to you as an inspiration!

Let us know how you are doing.
Hugs from me.
Daisy

 

Re: Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger » antigua

Posted by Aphrodite on May 25, 2004, at 18:15:58

In reply to Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:27

I hate that you are having to go through this.

I found with my limited experience with EMDR that you have amazing insights you wouldn't have otherwise. Also, it hits you at lightning speed, and it's just like "being there."

I think it makes total sense that there were two of you when you were little. One thing I have recently realized is that no matter what others do to me, I cannot bring myself to feel anger toward them -- I direct that at myself. So, at the time of abuse, I probably did the same thing. I excused my abusers and turned around and poured all of that anger and rage on to my passive young "good" self. The only person I have every truly despised is me, and that, I am sure, was done by my own "evil one" as you put it.

Just knowing and understanding this doesn't change it though, does it?

I'm sorry this has been so painful for you for so long. I hope in time you will learn to be good to yourself.

(((Antigua)))

 

Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite

Posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 22:09:36

In reply to Re: Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger, posted by DaisyM on May 25, 2004, at 18:14:13

Thanks for the support. What you both say makes perfect sense.

I never thought about my adult self hating the younger helpless child, Daisy, so maybe I'm just using another "me" to express the anger. I had envisioned that the adult me would help the little me come to terms with what had happened. I just didn't realize there was this very angry person I needed to deal w/too. But it makes perfect sense. Without it, where would my anger have gone? I've kept it so bottled up and now I've been presented with a "real" image of it--and it is a totally separate part of me at the moment.

Aphrodite, I've always hated myself instead of the other person. I'm still not angry at my father, not really, because if I am than I have to face it and what it did to me. It's so much easier to take it out on ourselves--actually, maybe it's safer.

See, I can intellectualize to death and still not get anywhere. Hope my T has some answers for me tomorrow. Sorry, I'm not very articulate tonight.
Thanks again,
antigua

 

((((antigua)))) (nm)

Posted by gardenergirl on May 26, 2004, at 8:08:51

In reply to Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 22:09:36

 

Let us know how today goes (nm) » antigua

Posted by Aphrodite on May 26, 2004, at 13:26:48

In reply to Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 13:35:27

nm

 

Re: Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger

Posted by LG04 on May 26, 2004, at 13:30:41

In reply to Re: Therapy Today....so confused! Trigger » antigua, posted by Aphrodite on May 25, 2004, at 18:15:58

Hi Antigua,

I also was sexually abused as a child and have PTSD. I have been in therapy for years and years but with 6 different therapists due mostly to insurance issues and an overseas move.

I have many little girls inside, each carrying different feelings. I do not have multiple personality disorder but I have very strong voices inside from different ages and with different kinds of feelings. I understand your shock at discovering a voice that you didn't know was there.

I definitely have a self-hating voice. This voice internalized the messages that I got from my abusers, which even if they weren't direct, still "told" me that I must be horrible and hateful and bad if I am being abused because why else would they abuse me?

I have done limited EMDR with my current therapist and it has been very helpful so I intend to do more.

Good luck and please know that you are not alone and that what you are experiencing is "normal" for survivors of sexual abuse.

LG

 

Re: Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite

Posted by starlight on May 26, 2004, at 14:53:36

In reply to Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 22:09:36

I've gone through this too! Only what I discovered is that the angry hateful little girl was actually trying to protect me from getting hurt again. She was there to protect the nicer, loving, more vulnerable little girl from additional pain. So the angry girl tries to keep me from being placed in a situation that I might regret later, but she's so strong that she can also keep me from taking steps that I should.

She's the one who perpetuates the fear. As I understand it, making her realize that my situation is different now, and that she doesn't need to protect me so ferociously, but it's ingrained in her and difficult to let go. She's a protective mechanism. And acknowledging that is very important. She did you a great service by providing you protection. Have you asked her what she wants?
starlight

 

Re: Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite » starlight

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 15:43:20

In reply to Re: Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by starlight on May 26, 2004, at 14:53:36

Asking one of your younger split-off selves what she wants is a GREAT thing to do. You may, and I do, find that her views are very different from your own grown-up views. For example, she may still feel that she has to fight against, or hide from abusers. She may also feel jealous if she feels YOU are getting more attention from your therapist than SHE is.

It has been shocking to me, really, to discover that I have these dissociated self-states, but it has also resulted in real progress in therapy, once I accepted it and learned how to work with it. And I agree with other posters who point out that dissociation is really the most *normal* and effective way for a person to deal with abuse, whether it involves neglect, emotional mistreatment, physical or sexual abuse. It's what makes it possible to keep going and build our adult lives.

PB is so fascinating- this board, especially, always seems to be growing and changing. It seems that it is just very recently that so many babblers have talked openly about dissociation- for example. Daisy's thread, above. It seems that more and more therapists are understanding it and working with it effectively. I feel so lucky to have a therapist who is very experienced with it; the one I went to prior to him, when my symptoms started to become severe, did not work that way at all, and wasn't helpful.

 

Update

Posted by antigua on May 26, 2004, at 17:41:31

In reply to Re: Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite » starlight, posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 15:43:20

Well, of course all of you were right. My T told me that it's a perfectly natural (notice I won't say "normal") thing to happen to a child who has been abused. I stil don't like it, and I'm not sure I can accept it. She was pretty excited (?? I feel like an experiment to her)and said that it was actually a good thing, but I don't see it. She said she had wondered where my anger was and now we know.

She tried to convince me that there were good things about the evil girl, but all I can see is her derision, demeaning behavior toward the other me. I think I already have the strength she has, so I really don't see any need for her whatsoever. My T didn't agree. I told her that everything the evil one said was actually true--all the self-hatred is warranted. I can't explain what I mean by that, but I believe she's right. None of this is my fault, but I do have to accept that the way I responded is what happened to me--I can't change that no matter what.

I'd just like to cut the evil one out of my life. I don't need her. My T doesn't agree. The evil one has all my anger--that's fine w/me, I've never been able to access it and I don't see how it would do me any good to access it now. It won't change anything. It's ugly, mean and hateful; it has no redeeming qualities. Naturally, my T doesn't agree.

I'm afraid I've reached a huge roadblock. I'm probably in denial--I do that quite often.
I see no way around this. The adult me is the same as the "good" little girl me, plus my adult strength, so what use can the evil girl be?

This has been a horrible day. I'm in shock. My T had called me even before I made it home from her office. I spent the rest of the day in bed.. I just don't know where to go from here.
antigua

 

Re: Update » antigua

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 18:08:20

In reply to Update, posted by antigua on May 26, 2004, at 17:41:31

Give yourself time. I reacted the same way you did when I first started thinking about the dissociated selves. I told my analyst, "let's get rid of her!" (the angry, enraged girl). When you feel ready, it will become much easier to deal with, but you can't hurry the process.

One thing that helped me a lot was journalling imaginary dialogues, as I allowed them to come to mind, between my adult self and the angry girl, and showing them to my analyst. But it was a number of months before I became comfortable enough to really work steadily on the dissociations, with all their complexity. Now that I'm able to, I'm feeling a lot better. I wish the same for you!

 

Re: Update » Pfinstegg

Posted by DaisyM on May 26, 2004, at 20:20:03

In reply to Re: Update » antigua, posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 18:08:20

(((Antigua)))

We all need to meet for drinks after days like today. Or at least a group cry.

I think you will find out eventually that anger has a place in all of this, though I haven't found mine yet. I think shock is a really good word to describe how I feel when I'm in this part of the cycle.

I bet your Therapist is excited because this is new territory for you. And movement, though painful, is good.

I think I said yesterday what you said today. I was the one who didn't tell, and I had the body that responded. And that makes me just sick to think about.

My Therapist said he was able and willing to give me a biology lesson...but what he would rather have me think about was this...If it is so hard for me to choke out the words of what happened, at 42 years old, to him who I trust and who has never hurt or failed me, in the safe environment of his office, clutching my couch pillows, how it the world could I think an 11 year old girl could tell anyone back then? Maybe she should have. But he wants me to try to forgive the should and look closely at her situation and how utterly paralyzed with fear she must have been. He also reminded me that we when first started working on all this stuff, I talked in cryptic paragraphs "I hate to be hugged" and I somehow thought he would figure it out and say it for me. He wonders if the 11 year old didn't do this too...and noone figured it out then either.

I wish you weren't so hard on yourself. And I wish I could help more. Please let me know how you are doing.
Hugs from me.
Daisy.

 

Re: Update » Pfinstegg

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 23:04:08

In reply to Re: Update » antigua, posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 18:08:20

Thanks, Daisy! Wouldn't it be fun to meet for a glass of wine (or a whatever) in the evening after one of our therapy hours and share these things- the things which I have never told anyone about, other than a bit, but not all, to my husband. I never dared to tell a friend, as I felt they all had loving, protective fathers, and would really look down on me if they knew how mine really was. Nor did I ever dare to tell my mother. Were you the same?

In any given week, with its four sessions, I seem to range from terror, hopelessness and shame to joy and confidence- then right back again! My T. is actually very pleased with how things are going, and I am too, as there are more and more good times as we work on these *parts* and try to get them working together more harmoniously, with each part learning to understand and empathize with other parts' feelings and views. Even with all its pain, therapy is such an amazing experience, isn't it? - I have never experienced being with another person who is so interested, attentive, caring and accepting about everything I say and feel. And in lighter moments, he is also playful and delightfully funny. Just the experience of being with another person like that is so powerful- it's impossible to really describe it, except to someone who's also experienced it, like you. Your T. sounds a lot like mine, especially with how extremely caring he is. I make sure that I keep a journal which includes, in addition to the hard stuff, all the wonderful things he has said, so that I'll never forget them!

whoops..getting late,

P.

 

Re: Update » Pfinstegg

Posted by antigua on May 27, 2004, at 16:50:42

In reply to Re: Update » Pfinstegg, posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 23:04:08

I'd like a little cheese and crackers w/that wine please... It really would be nice to talk to people who actually understand what you're talking about. That's what I love about babble. I hate the pity look I get from people who know, because they just don't understand--no, they can't understand.

Daisy, you said you were 11 years old. My heart breaks for you; I have an 11-year-old daughter and if anyone came near her I would absolutely kill them. I would have no qualms about it. She is my joy, in that I look at her and know that while she may grow up w/problems of her own, she is basically very well adjusted. She has a great father and a great relationship w/him; our home is actually very normal, something that I've worked hard to create, although I didn't ever know what that meant.


I was abused at a younger age, from about 4 years old to 9, I think. I have sensory memories--smells, tastes and sounds--that hit me hard at times. They're disgusting to me, and I can't escape them. He@@, they'd be gross to anyone.

My awareness of what happened to me didn't start to actively emerge until after my father died. There were certain things I already knew, but I never had thought much about them, or thought that they were really wrong. Strange,isn't it? I think it took having kids to start to see the difference. Actually, it started to get really hard when my daughter approached the age I was when it all began.

I'm glad my father is dead. I can't face my mother. I act like the perfect daughter for her but inside I'm screaming "Where were you? Why didn't you stop him. How could you not know??" I probably won't ever confront my mother because I don't want to and I don't think it would ever do me any good because she would deny it. I think she was abused as a child too.

I know that some of you journal/write, but I can't do that. It's way too personal. I can't really explain it, but to put it on paper makes it more real, and it also defines it in words in a way that can never be erased. Or changed. I don't know why that's so important to me. I have written about it some and given it to a therapist or two, but the agony of being accurate is too limiting for me. It is some of my best writing ever, though, but maybe it's just too close right now.

I guess I have to accept that the evil girl is part of me. I don't think I need her, but I'll give my T a chance.

Will this ever be over? I have a great life, and as someone said in one of the threads above, I have a great life in spite of what happened--I have a great husband who really loves me, three well-adjusted kids, a good career, a master's degree, a house, etc., etc. and all I can do is focus on this. I always thought my childhood made me stronger than most--I had to work hard to survive, but now I'm not sure the cost has been worth it. Not right now.

I don't want to be a victim and I don't want to be a survivor. I just want to be me.
antigua

 

Above for all (nm)

Posted by antigua on May 27, 2004, at 17:14:14

In reply to Re: Update » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on May 27, 2004, at 16:50:42

 

Re: Update » Pfinstegg

Posted by DaisyM on May 27, 2004, at 19:54:00

In reply to Re: Update » Pfinstegg, posted by Pfinstegg on May 26, 2004, at 23:04:08

P -

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't talk to their husband about all of this. I told mine 20 years ago before we got married. I guess I wanted him to know what he was getting (tainted me) but I think I said, "my dad touched me inappropriately when I was a kid -- not big deal, just thought you should know. I don't know why I want you to know." That was it. We didn't discuss it and still don't. I *can't* bring myself to tell him about most of what goes on in therapy. Especially as we explore the topic of sex and how all this has effected that. It is still too painful and it would complicate so many things.

And I don't tell my friends either. You are right, how would they ever understand. Of course, up until 6 months ago, I could see no purpose of ever telling anyone. It was all so "dealt with and put away."

I'm glad I have babble. It is so great to share like this.

 

Re: Update

Posted by DaisyM on May 27, 2004, at 20:04:29

In reply to Re: Update » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on May 27, 2004, at 16:50:42

Oh Antigua, I just want you to be you too. I hate the word survivor, but I can see why people like it. And I don't want to be a victim either. I haven't found the word yet, maybe I won't.

I asked that question sometime this week: When will I be done with this? My Therapist said I will most likely get to the point where I can talk about it (at least to him) without it causing a complete meltdown but that it will proably always hurt. Since I can't change the past, I don't see it as a choice really, I have to work through it. Otherwise "it" wins. You know?

The first episode of touching I remember was when I was 7. It stopped when I was almost 13. But then he moved across the country and "abandoned" me. And I felt guilty because I was glad he was gone and I missed him terribly. Day/night feelings, Love/hate. I often think it would be easier in to many ways if he was dead as I try to work on this stuff. Our relationship for the past 20 years has been "OK" -- I think of him as two seperate people. And as far as my mother goes, I'll never tell her, I don't think. My Therapist brought that up today, what do I think she knew about and how did I feel about her? This is an extremely painful piece for me and since we have a 4 day weekend, I told him I wasn't ready to go there.

I'm sorry you are hurting so bad right now. I do wish we could all get together. On the other hand, it might be more honest to keep sharing this way. None of those pesky facial expressions!

Take good care.
Daisy

 

Re: Update » DaisyM

Posted by antigua on May 27, 2004, at 21:43:55

In reply to Re: Update, posted by DaisyM on May 27, 2004, at 20:04:29

My father left for good when I was nine--across country too, BTW. I thought I had driven him away, that if he had loved me enough, or if I'd been "better" he never would have left. It took years for me to know that his leaving had nothing at all to do with me. He was a man and I was a child. He always had women; I was nothing special, although that's what I held onto in order to tolerate what he did to me.

My T says my father was narcisstic. I know that means something (to me, he had no morals, conscience, or nobody to whom he had to be accountable to) but I haven't looked up the psychological definitions. All I know is that as a young girl, funny as it may seem, he was the stable force in my life and I did whatever I had to do to keep our family together. Kids are so vulnerable, I see now, and we think we are the center of the universe and hold all the power. I think it's good when we learn we don't, but it makes me feel hopeless too, knowing that all that I thought made a difference actually made no difference at all.

I know this is intense and I'll stop now. I know that I tend to overwhelm others. You are doing so great--if you can't see it, I do.

I hope you can enjoy your weekend,
antigua

 

Re: Update

Posted by starlight on May 28, 2004, at 12:18:57

In reply to Update, posted by antigua on May 26, 2004, at 17:41:31

Read your own post. Is that her talking? Sounds like it! One of the things you have to watch out for is her butting into your progress, because she wants to stay in control. The protective mechanism is a really strong one and if she feels threatened by being unveiled, she will try to avoid being exposed. You've got nothing to lose here, and your therapist is right, and I would go so far as to say that amongst abused children, it's normal. Go for it!
starlight

 

Re: Update » starlight

Posted by antigua on May 28, 2004, at 12:27:48

In reply to Re: Update, posted by starlight on May 28, 2004, at 12:18:57

Touche (imagine there is an accent over the e). You stopped me dead in my tracks, and now I'll have to think about it.
Thanks,
antigua

 

Re: Update » starlight

Posted by DaisyM on May 28, 2004, at 14:45:24

In reply to Re: Update, posted by starlight on May 28, 2004, at 12:18:57

I think your advise is wise and it makes me stop and think too. Last Friday when my youngerself freaked out it was because she wanted to stay out and in control. But I never think of her sneaking out...hmmm, I'll have to watch for that.

My protective mechanism has been "flights into health" where I feel so much better and "don't need" my Therapist anymore. It doesn't usually last very long. But it always at these times that I bring up cutting way back on sessions or taking a break.

 

One good girl of bad girl

Posted by Jai Narayan on May 29, 2004, at 20:14:51

In reply to Thanks Daisy and Aphrodite, posted by antigua on May 25, 2004, at 22:09:36

Dear antigua,
When I turned 16 after a horrible fight with my mother, I saw myself as black and white. One side was good one side bad. I became contrary. I started cutting and drinking and doing everything that was bad.
Before that I was the good girl and did everything the best I could but was hurting inside.
The fight my mother and I had drove me over the edge. She ended up in the hospital and I went under.
It has taken me years to liberate the girls....to become gray....white and black all mixed together. Good, bad and all the places in between. I am whole now and sometimes I feel bad about how I handled something but I am not the BAD PERSON I would have been. I no longer have to punish myself for anything....I am free.
I feel like someone who has just stepped out of a jail.
"Free at last...free at last....god almighty free at last"

 

(((Jai))), Thanks for sharing that. (nm) » Jai Narayan

Posted by gardenergirl on May 30, 2004, at 11:46:01

In reply to One good girl of bad girl, posted by Jai Narayan on May 29, 2004, at 20:14:51

 

Thank you Jai (nm)

Posted by antigua on May 30, 2004, at 12:44:02

In reply to One good girl of bad girl, posted by Jai Narayan on May 29, 2004, at 20:14:51


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