Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 349242

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A new theory of mine

Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

I think the purpose of therapy is to teach us that we can't have all that we want, and that that's not as bad or as scary as we think it is.

I think the artificial setup of the therapist's office is nearly guaranteed to make us care more for them than they care for us. And that hurts like h*ll. So some of us are afraid to want what we know we can't have. And some of us are in enormous pain to not be able to get what we want. And so therapy teaches some of us that it's ok to want, and some of us that it's ok to not have. And all of us that it's ok to want what we can't have. And for some of us, it expands our potential horizons. And for others of us, it soothes our anger. And for some of us, both.

But so far it's just an idea, not really even a theory.

 

Re: A new theory of mine

Posted by Rigby on May 21, 2004, at 12:46:20

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

Hi Dinah,

This is an interesting thought. I wonder though if therapy is working--and working well--it should be about recogizing our dreams and desires and also, by remembering, re-thinking and in a sense re-training old patterns, we are able to potentially achieve some of what we wish for (not all but some.) My sense is if we're in a painful holding pattern around feeling that we can never have what we want (e.g. a sense of emotional equality with our therapists) then maybe it's not the right therapist? Or maybe it's just the stuff is so deep it's hard for the feelings to pass? Or you could argue, if the therapist was good, they'd move you through those feelings, eventually, without it taking forever? Just thinking outloud here...

> I think the purpose of therapy is to teach us that we can't have all that we want, and that that's not as bad or as scary as we think it is.
>
> I think the artificial setup of the therapist's office is nearly guaranteed to make us care more for them than they care for us. And that hurts like h*ll. So some of us are afraid to want what we know we can't have. And some of us are in enormous pain to not be able to get what we want. And so therapy teaches some of us that it's ok to want, and some of us that it's ok to not have. And all of us that it's ok to want what we can't have. And for some of us, it expands our potential horizons. And for others of us, it soothes our anger. And for some of us, both.
>
> But so far it's just an idea, not really even a theory.

 

...equality with our therapists » Rigby

Posted by 64bowtie on May 21, 2004, at 12:54:52

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine, posted by Rigby on May 21, 2004, at 12:46:20

...is still not freedom.

Rod

 

Re: A new theory of mine (long response)

Posted by babbgal on May 21, 2004, at 13:14:38

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine, posted by Rigby on May 21, 2004, at 12:46:20

Dinah, great post. Lots to think about.

Rigby, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that your statement, "...if therapy is working--and working well--it should be about recogizing our dreams and desires and also, by remembering, re-thinking and in a sense re-training old patterns..." is pretty much the classic definition of the goal of psychodynamic psychotherapy...that is, seeing the old rotten patterns we are caught up in, breaking those patterns, becoming healthier.

Lord knows, I never believed in the "you learned x and y from your parents and it influences your life now." But that's all changed. I am with a great T. and while I don't blame my family for problems in my life, I can definitely see where I learned certain things (i.e., participated in destructive ways of acting/behaving) growing up, and where my family tried to prevent me from growing and changing...it's sometimes so damn scary to be dredging this stuff up...

As to wanting and having, and wanting what I can't have...my T. has been trying to get me to follow my dreams and be able to define for myself what I want. There was a time when he asked me to come up with 20 things that I want, and I could only come up with about 5. I had (have?) a serious problem with even thinking about good things for myself. So I'm at the point where he is trying to nurture that in me...so I haven't even got to the point of wanting something I can't have...!

>>"I think the artificial setup of the therapist's office is nearly guaranteed to make us care more for them than they care for us. And that hurts like h*ll.">>

I personally don't feel this. Yes, I care for my T. and am grateful for the relationship. I also feel very strongly that he cares for me right back, because he has demonstrated so through his behavior -- being extremely available to me via phone and extra sessions, being incredibly respectful of me and my feelings (even at times when we've yelled at each other...) and having the utmost integrity in regards to agreements we make in the therapeutic setting.

I've seen other therapists in the past and had always felt "lesser"...and also never thought I made any progress. With this T., I feel respected...maybe "equal" isn't the right word, but I don't feel like the stupid lesser one, I feel like a person worthy of being listened to. And yes, I know I pay for the service, but in any case...things are working, there is still pain, but perhaps a little bit less. We'll see. :)

 

Re: A new theory of mine

Posted by DaisyM on May 21, 2004, at 15:27:42

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

I think the idea of a "corrective emotional experience" allows for both sides of this theory. Learning that wanting something you can't ever have is OK and also learning to allow yourself to want something you might get is also OK.

I wonder if we *knew* our Therapist carried us around the way we carry them around if that would be comfortable? I worry so much about being a burden and being intrusive. Once my Therapist said on a Monday, "how was the weekend? I was worried about you." My immediate response was to apologize for making him worry. I just want to know he's out there if I need him. I don't need for him to be thinking of me. (I don't know if that makes sense.)

Maybe it totally has to do with why you are in therapy in the first place. But it is interesting to think about why it works at all.

 

»(((Dinah)))-A theory of mine (what am I missing)

Posted by 64bowtie on May 21, 2004, at 15:35:52

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

> I think the artificial setup of the therapist's office is nearly guaranteed to make us care more for them than they care for us. And that hurts like h*ll.
>
<<< (((Dinah))), You must know by now that I believe in you, no-matter-what. Please tell me what hurts and why? Is it that you feel misrepresented to? Perhaps, something your therapist says, you find later not to be true, and since you have all this water-under-the-bridge, you desparately want to continue? Or, you care for your therapist inappropriately and want it all to be different? (these are only poor guesses on my part) Please give me a clue.

I want to understand and see your pain for what it is. Indulge me; I can-not feel Y O U R pain directly. The best we can do is for you to describe it to me. I will then connect to something in my life to assume what it means to you.

Please help me through this. You're one of my heros.

Rod

 

Re: A new theory of mine

Posted by Aphrodite on May 21, 2004, at 15:49:39

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

Tying into another thread about knowing about your therapist's personal life helps me with this issue. He has divulged that he has been on my "side of the couch" many times and still is. I'm glad he told me that -- now I know that he has more than a good understanding of how I must feel. So, he probably knows I worry about burdening him, care about his place in my life, etc.

I'm still working on beliving I deserve the things that are actually attainable. I think my abusive past shuts me down just at the moment when something I want and (dare I say?) deserve is just within my reach. It smacks me down the split second I extend my hand for it.

 

Re: A new theory of mine

Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 19:26:40

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

'Twas just a theory. Perhaps it could use more fleshing out. :)

Or maybe it's completely off base.

 

Re: My new theory » 64bowtie

Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 22:33:53

In reply to »(((Dinah)))-A theory of mine (what am I missing), posted by 64bowtie on May 21, 2004, at 15:35:52

No, no, Rod. It's none of those things. My therapist is very straight up and trustworthy. I care about him very appropriately as a therapist.

It's just a weird relationship, that's all. And sometimes it seems weirder than others.

But he helps me, and that's what counts.

 

» Dinah:My new theory --- more

Posted by 64bowtie on May 22, 2004, at 10:33:33

In reply to Re: My new theory » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 22:33:53

Thanx some, but you said...

> It's just a weird relationship, that's all. And sometimes it seems weirder than others.
>
<<< Wierd or not, a relationship that causes pain is not a good relationship. A relationship based on goodness, truth, and beauty, doesn't cause pain, and helps set us free. If a therapist likes to play "games", it can be wierd and painful. We're never -OK- in the relationship, making us feel like we are making progress in some distorted way.

I'm still concerned about the "so much pain allusion".

Rod

 

Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah

Posted by terrics on May 22, 2004, at 16:18:14

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

I like the theory; however I hate the pain. Wish there was a better compromise. terrics

 

Re: My therapist » 64bowtie

Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2004, at 21:45:54

In reply to » Dinah:My new theory --- more, posted by 64bowtie on May 22, 2004, at 10:33:33

Thank you for your concern. But my therapist doesn't play games. He's pretty straightforward. A nice guy, really.

 

Re: A new theory of mine » terrics

Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2004, at 21:51:19

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah, posted by terrics on May 22, 2004, at 16:18:14

I have to give the theory some more thought. But it seems to be something so many of us struggle with. I mean, half the board seems to be us wanting our therapists to care about us as individuals.

And I was in a bad mood because my therapist said a few things that could be interpreted as less than flattering. OK, downright unflattering. His job, I guess. But you know how that is. It brings up all sorts of other thoughts along with it.

 

Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah

Posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2004, at 12:52:55

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine » terrics, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2004, at 21:51:19

Dinah,
I know that hearing unflattering things is hard. I can't imagine what it would be like hearing it from someone with whom you've had such a long and meaningful relationship. I don't like some of the things my T has said recently, but I take it that he feels our relationship is or at least I am strong enough now to survive it. And I think that's good, but of course no one likes to hear the bad stuff. In some ways, it's the mark of a truly honest relationship that someone would say those things when needed. But it still hurts.

I know that in going through all of the terminations recently, I did find myself thinking about how odd the therapy relationship is. It really is set up, in some ways, to lead to an ending which can be painful. But it's an important life lesson and skill being able to deal with loss. So I'm not sure if this is where your theory is going, but it IS a relationship that can and likely at some point, WILL lead to pain. Just like so many other meaningful relationships with other human beings. I guess it is better, at least, to have someone skilled in helping you cope with that pain and a safe place in which to work through it.

I'm still struggling with this on both sides of the couch.

Take care,

gg

 

Re: A new theory of mine

Posted by pegasus on May 23, 2004, at 14:38:01

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

Dinah, I've been thinking about this post a lot lately. It's good to think about the positive side of loss and pain. I think it's true that we're better off if we can be ok with not getting what we want. And ok with wanting what we can't have. That's been a huge struggle for me lately. I fight so hard against having these phenomena in my life. But, it comes up all the time in life, doesn't it? So, I'm using your words to help me put my wanting into a better, more healthy and accepting perspective.

Thanks much for sharing your thoughts on this.

pegasus

 

Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on May 23, 2004, at 14:57:29

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

I disagree a bit, Dinah. In my sessions, I am often encouraged to express what my dreams and desires really are, and my T. gives me a lot of support and encouragment in doing that. It's made me realize that a part of becoming depressed is giving up those wishes and dreams, and recovering has a lot to do with feeling that you are worthy of having them again. Just expressing those feelings, and knowing that they are accepted and validated, is so helpful in regaining confidence, I think. We, of course, won't achieve everything we desire, but, as long as we are alive, I think it's wonderful to have dreams and work towards them..

 

Re: A new theory of mine » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2004, at 16:01:41

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on May 23, 2004, at 14:57:29

I certainly wouldn't disagree with that. In fact, part of what I was trying to say is that a lot of us are scared of wanting things that we aren't likely to get. Including therapy things. Like being afraid of calling to ask for an extra session. Or being afraid of caring about our therapists because they probably won't care as intensely about us as we care about them. So we block off those feelings of wanting.

But if you get through therapy ok, you learn it's ok to want those things even if you don't get them. And it's ok to not get what you want, too. Which is a slightly different thing.

 

Re: A new theory of mine » pegasus

Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2004, at 16:03:58

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine, posted by pegasus on May 23, 2004, at 14:38:01

It certainly is a healthy ability to have. My own tendency is to try to only want the things I know are in my grasp. Not that I don't daydream about other things. But I don't allow myself to actually want them.

It's kind of useful in life, but it's also kind of limiting.

The trouble is that I don't know how well I'm learning the lessons involved.

 

Re: A new theory of mine » gardenergirl

Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2004, at 16:12:01

In reply to Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 23, 2004, at 12:52:55

I'm still not accepting that this is a relationship that has to end at some point. I'm trusting to dumb luck that I'll die before termination. :)

I was thinking about the unflattering remarks. I think I should let the anger about them go because they're really not on the mark. They really can't possibly be or I wouldn't be able to even do a half-*ss job of being wife, mother, and employee. He says I misunderstood the implications of what he said, and I suppose I ought to believe him. Because if I don't I'll have to wonder about *his* grip on reality.

Besides, I really hate being angry with him.

 

Re: A new theory of mine » Dinah

Posted by Miss Honeychurch on May 23, 2004, at 20:25:17

In reply to A new theory of mine, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:52:19

Dinah,

YOur first sentence is what my T has been drilling into my head for months now. Life is full of problems and they aren't as awful or scary as we make them out to be. It is all in how you THINK about it (he's a big CBT guy). All of one's distress in life is caused by cognition. You can learn to control the cognition thru different thoughts.

 

Re: My therapist - guess that's that.. (nm) » Dinah

Posted by 64bowtie on May 24, 2004, at 11:45:52

In reply to Re: My therapist » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2004, at 21:45:54


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