![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 2:57:47
I had a not so great therapy session yesterday. To start I told my T that I would only be able to see her twice a month now. She asked me why that was and I tried to explain to her about my mother and etc (you know what I'm talking about if you follow my posts). She seemed upset at me, even though she said she realized it was out of my control. Anyway, I felt like she was mad at me so it sort of set the mood for the rest of the session. :( I don't feel like she understands me. I told her I hated therapy. Then she seemed to get even more irritated, even when I tried to make it clear that I didn't hate her, I hated the way therapy is making me feel. I cry after just about every session. I told her that I hated it because there were things I wanted to tell her, but couldn't yet because I don't know how to deal with the feelings yet. We talked about how I am completely 100% out of touch with my feelings. She wants to start "working on that." Uh-huh... I can see that happening. We talked about my manic episode and she had *nothing* really to say about it. She asked me a few questions about why I felt manic, what I did during, and what I tried to stop it. Then she never gave me any idea on whether it really was a genuine episode or not. Now I miss Burt (my pdoc). I left a message a WEEK ago with his secretary to call me and he still hasn't called. That always hurts my feelings. I feel depressed.
Elle
Posted by tinydancer on March 14, 2004, at 5:20:09
In reply to I hate therapy (rant), posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 2:57:47
I don't know what's worse, leaving the therapy room after a great session or leaving after an awful one. I could not handle my T being upset at me, I count on him to be honest with me if he's irritated with me or distracted in any way. Because I *do* notice. One day I was practically attacking him-"Are you tired? Do you have a headache? Are you sick? You seem distracted."
I think that its natural to hate therapy when it gets really hard. Think about a friendship. We sit there, unload all our happiness and sadness-upon one another. WE share and give equally to one another. In therapy, you give and you give and feel, sometimes, so empty because you don't get anything back. It's you doing the work, you're left alone to sort it out. The therapist is your mediator, a kind of support, but then there's boundaries, and limits, and transference, and everything is a big nasty syndrome of something.
It seems like you felt detached from the session and that she wasn't able to reach into the heart of the issue. What could she have done to make you feel more satisfied and less let down? Did you have any special expectations about what the session would be like?
Posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2004, at 9:59:07
In reply to I hate therapy (rant), posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 2:57:47
*** Elle,
*** Your session doesn't sound like it was a lot of fun.
*** Can I ask you a couple of questions? Some of the things that you said sound pretty familiar to me - and I'm wondering whether some of the stuff that goes on in my therapy might be going on with you. Of course, none of what I say may be relevant at all - so please feel free to listen to things that sound relevant and discard the rest! (This is wicked long... [she says with embarassment])
> ...I told my T that I would only be able to see her twice a month... She seemed upset at me... Anyway, I felt like she was mad at me.... :( ...Then she seemed to get even more irritated, even when I tried to make it clear that I didn't hate her, I hated the way therapy is making me feel.
*** There have been many, many, many times when I have felt that my (current and former) therapist have been mad at me. For the longest time, I just freaked out silently, and did whatever I could to "fix" my badness so that she wouldn't be mad at me. The phrase from the DSM description of BPD seems to fit me well at these times - "Frantic effort to avoid abandonment". When I switched therapists and felt the VERY SAME feeling with him, I knew that it was transference. He was able to help me look at it, and we spent a lot of time talking about how and why I thought he was mad, and how he really was feeling (which wasn't mad). He did finally convince me that just because *I* thought he was mad didn't mean that *he* WAS mad. After that, I started to check with him - to tell him that he seemed mad to me, was he mad? And we would go through the whole thing again. I have progressed to the point where, when I feel like he's mad at me, I can try to think of alternate explanations and then I can keep myself together (not freak) until my next session when I can check with him to see if he is really mad. Just knowing that there are alternate explanations (and that in all likelihood he isn't mad) allows me to control the freaking. Did you *ASK* her if she was mad or irritated? It was very helpful to me to find out what *he* was feeling (as opposed to what I thought he was feeling).
> I don't feel like she understands me.
*** This comment may be completely off base, but when I read this my first thought was that this is how you feel about your mother. Are you projecting that feeling onto your therapist? (Maybe I've been reading too many psych books...)
>...I told her that I hated it because there were things I wanted to tell her, but couldn't yet because I don't know how to deal with the feelings yet. We talked about how I am completely 100% out of touch with my feelings. She wants to start "working on that." Uh-huh... I can see that happening.
*** I am the kind of person who likes no surprises. I love to plan. I will go over an issue so many times in my mind until I can say it just the right way - or I'll write it down (and then get annoyed when he doesn't want me to read it - Gee, these words say *exactly* what I want to say, why can't I use what I wrote?). It sounds like you don't want to talk about things until you have worked them out and are comfortable with them. I certainly can relate. However. Not knowing "how to deal with the feelings yet" shouldn't keep you from talking about something. The whole point of therapy is to explore areas that you don't understand and get some help from your therapist in handling these areas. You aren't *supposed* to know how to handle everything - if you did know how to handle everything, then you wouldn't need to be in therapy. She *IS* there to help you figure out how to deal with the feelings - but she can't do that if you don't talk about the issues.
*** In the "old days", I used to journal a lot. Before a session, I would reread all of my journalling, make a list of the things I wanted to talk about (and the order to talk about them), I would rehearse the entire session in my mind until I was comfortable with it. There were whole sessions with my old therapist where she really didn't say anything at all - I was "reporting" my life to her. What value was she adding? My current therapist has worked hard to try to get me to plan less. He won't let me read stuff (there are times when I can read stuff - but it is really the exception), he doesn't want me to have an "agenda". He wants the sessions to go whereever they go, and he doesn't want me to "control" the session. I still write a bit (though more here and in IM/emails with friends), I don't review it usually before a session (well, sometimes I do - but at least now I feel like I'm studying for a test - how much detail can my brain actually remember? and I know that this isn't so helpful), unless there is a mega-tough issue, I don't rehearse it, sometimes I don't even know what my opening sentance will be (but I think it really is OK to plan that much...). It's a different way of looking at therapy - instead of "presenting" myself for her approval, I am *living* in the session (and we are both observing what that "living" looks like). This change was incredibly difficult - but it also has made an incredible difference to the effectiveness of therapy. This may or may not be the way that you see therapy, but it might be worth asking your therapist about the planning vs. spontaneity question.
> We talked about my manic episode and she had *nothing* really to say about it. She asked me a few questions about why I felt manic, what I did during, and what I tried to stop it. Then she never gave me any idea on whether it really was a genuine episode or not.
*** Did you ASK her if it was a "genuine episode" or not? Usually, I think of these kinds of questions 5 minutes after I walk out the door (frustrating!).
> Now I miss Burt (my pdoc). I left a message a WEEK ago with his secretary to call me and he still hasn't called. That always hurts my feelings.
*** Call him again. Burt is too sweet to not return your phone calls. I bet the message got lost.
> I feel depressed.
> Elle*** ((((Elle)))) Can you talk to her about these frustrations? I know that you have tried, but sometimes you have to keep on trying. These kinds of interactions with your therapist really do say a lot about how you see the world and your role in the world. And that is a very important topic for therapy.
Posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 12:16:39
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) (long) » Elle2021, posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2004, at 9:59:07
Hmm...no I didn't ask her if she was mad. I didn't think about that. Her body language and tone of voice led me to the "mad" conclusion. But, I tend to believe that my perception is pretty off the mark most of the time. I'm starting to think perhaps she was just frustrated because I can't come once a week. She made mention about how it would be fine to do twice a month, but from a "clinical perspective" it would take longer. From now on, when she is mad, I'm going to come right out and ask her. The only question now is...will I believe her if she tells me she isn't? If she isn't mad, then what can I fix?
> > I don't feel like she understands me.
> *** This comment may be completely off base, but when I read this my first thought was that this is how you feel about your mother. Are you projecting that feeling onto your therapist? (Maybe I've been reading too many psych books...)Actually I don't think it sounds that off base to me. We had a long talk about how I need to start dealing and learning how to handle my mother. It is entirely possible I transfered my feelings about the situation onto her. It's even more likely that I projected *myself* onto her. I don't feel like I understand me...therefore she doesn't understand me. And BTW...I'm a fan of reading psych books too! :)
> >...I told her that I hated it because there were things I wanted to tell her, but couldn't yet because I don't know how to deal with the feelings yet. We talked about how I am completely 100% out of touch with my feelings. She wants to start "working on that." Uh-huh... I can see that happening.Well she said that she agreed with me, that if I was going to using cutting as a coping mechanism then she thought it was a bad idea to discuss certain things until I get back in touch with my feelings. It's hard to describe exactly how *out* of touch I am. I am so used to completely disociating myself from what I'm feeling and replacing it with something...more easy to deal with (more superficial).
> *** I am the kind of person who likes no surprises. I love to plan.That is so me! I was so mad at myself because I had printed some things off a website about OCD and I had some questions for her...I forgot all of it at home. I had also made an agenda of what I wanted to discuss, which I also forgot. So when I came into the session and she asked if there was something in particular to talk about, I said no...can you believe that. UGH!
>It's a different way of looking at therapy - instead of "presenting" myself for her approval, I am *living* in the session (and we are both observing what that "living" looks like).
Well this is what I need to learn to do! I definitely go in there and present the "guaranteed to be approved version" of myself. I'd like to go in there and just tell her I feel miserable, I want to come to see her not just once a week, but every single day. I'm not sure I'm going to get fixed here. I'm half-way convinced she's are going to dump me if I don't quit cutting. (I've decided to quit telling her about the cutting). It would be SO nice to be that honest with her. I think MAYBE I might be able to do that at my next session.
> *** Did you ASK her if it was a "genuine episode" or not? Usually, I think of these kinds of questions 5 minutes after I walk out the door (frustrating!).
No, I kind of thought we would have more discussion over it and then come to a conclusion. I didn't think about asking her if it were genuine. Do you think it's still okay to ask at my next session?
> *** Call him again. Burt is too sweet to not return your phone calls. I bet the message got lost.
:) Those forgetful secretaries... (wink wink) I will give him a call Monday.
> *** ((((Elle)))) Can you talk to her about these frustrations?No, I haven't really tried to tell her about it just yet, but now I'm going to. I realize now how important it is. It's just new to me to actually tell someone my feelings and expect them to take any of it into account.
Thanks for the post Falls, it was more helpful than you think! :) (((Falls))))
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 12:18:53
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » Elle2021, posted by tinydancer on March 14, 2004, at 5:20:09
>Did you have any special expectations about what the session would be like?
Definitely. I had tons of questions for her that I had written down and I forgot them at home. It had been almost a moht since I had seen her and I guess I just expected more? Some revelation about the manic episode I had...more info on what's going on with me. Stuff like that. I did have my heart set on having a good session.
Elle
Posted by tinydancer on March 14, 2004, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » tinydancer, posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 12:18:53
> Definitely. I had tons of questions for her that I had written down and I forgot them at home. It had been almost a moht since I had seen her and I guess I just expected more? Some revelation about the manic episode I had...more info on what's going on with me. Stuff like that. I did have my heart set on having a good session.
> ElleThis reminds me of an experience I had with my T after Christmas break. I think it had been 2 weeks, maybe a little more. As anyone with psychological problems knows, holidays are hell so it felt like a lot longer.
When I saw him again I realized I had huge expectations. I seriously expected him to suddenly whisk me up and away to Paris or something. I wasn't aware that I had expectations this high going on, but afterwards I shared what had happened with him and he reflected,"Could it have been inevitable?" I think it is easy to put unrealistic, and even inhuman expectations on our T's regarding what happens in our sessions. I am not saying you did that, but I know that I do and have seen where it leads. We expect a lot in return for all that we give, and its natural to be let down when she didn't have the answers you were hoping for. I know what a let down it is to leave and feel dissatisfied with the time you just spent with your T. When is the next time you see her?
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 14, 2004, at 13:36:29
In reply to I hate therapy (rant), posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 2:57:47
Elle, I'm serious! I wish I could wish all your (and my) troubles away. Yet every tomorrow I get up and there they are again; my troubles. If I could wish your troubles away, I would do that for you, probably before I would even do it for myself.
The process of troubles happened little by little. One day I woke and I had a bunch, because they seem to breed behind my back without my permission. I seem to be doing everything I'm s'posed to be doing. So, what's wrong (with me)??
Define "wrong" for the correct answer.
I wait for folks to tell me what's right and what I should do. Isn't that how the world works? Well, apparently it hasn't been working for me!!
What's "neato" and "keeno" (Beatnik jargon) is that I can change those habituations (habits). If I take the time to look around and study the horizon a little, I can see very clearly what is "right". If I narrow my vision of possible things to do, let's say limit the list to three or maybe five things, I can do those. If I stop grumbling about the troubles of the world, or the state, or next door, long enough to get clarity about my life, I'll discover what to do. I'm at least smart enough to do that.
I intuitively know my troubles that seem so huge to me, are really a fly-speck on time. I can choose to cope or succumb. I choose to cope, and roll back the stuff that is about to roll me over. It'll take time to get it all rolled back. But, guess what? It only took as-long-as-it-took to create it, so "as-long-as-it-takes" to roll it back might be quick(er). But, I'm already started and I'm gonna do it!!!
That's the difference. I trust myself and my process (not somebody elses) has already started.
Our Therapy is our process, not belonging to our therapist. We get to make out of it what we wish and want. So, we do wish our troubles away, slowly!!!
Rod
Posted by DaisyM on March 14, 2004, at 14:25:13
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » Elle2021, posted by tinydancer on March 14, 2004, at 5:20:09
>>>I think that its natural to hate therapy when it gets really hard.
>>>In therapy, you give and you give and feel, sometimes, so empty because you don't get anything back. It's you doing the work, you're left alone to sort it out. The therapist is your mediator, a kind of support, but then there's boundaries, and limits, and transference, and everything is a big nasty syndrome of something.
Tiny,
I agree with you that it is natural to "hate" therapy when it gets really hard. However, I must say that I disagree that I don't get anything back. Therapy has definately made me more aware of how lonely I am, how there is a huge hole in my life. But my Therapist has provided something no one ever has for me...he serves as a safe base from which to explore all these feelings and issues. He tells me often that he is "in it with me" that he will be right beside me as we dissect some of the really hard problems. And he doesn't just say it. He has shown over the past 10 months that he means it.
When I report feeling "alone" in doing the work, he tries to reinforce that he is with me, available by phone, or available for more sessions. (see previous post about swimming pool). Letting him help me is one of the issues I battle. It isn't that he doesn't have strong, tight boundaries, he does. I never feel those are threatened and I don't have romantic feelings for him. But increasingly I'm showing more of myself because he makes me feel safe.
I'm sorry you don't feel this way and I hear pain and frustration in your post. I just wanted to give the other side a voice -- that while therapy is a tremendously hard process, so much harder than I EVER imagined, it doesn't have to be a solitary, isolating process.
Please don't read this as a put down in anyway. I feel really lucky sometimes to have the Therapist I do.
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on March 14, 2004, at 16:03:34
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) (long) » fallsfall, posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 12:16:39
> I'm half-way convinced she's are going to dump me if I don't quit cutting. (I've decided to quit telling her about the cutting). It would be SO nice to be that honest with her. I think MAYBE I might be able to do that at my next session.
Elle, that makes me feel sad. I would hate not feeling like I can tell my therapist *anything*. Can you make telling her that you're worried about this a priority before you stop letting her know when you self injure? My therapist asked me once, hypothetically, what I would do if he made an ultimatum about my cutting, and I answered that I would hypothetically lie through my teeth and not feel a bit of guilt about it. He said he figured I'd say that and that was why he didn't make that ultimatum. He preferred that I be honest with him. Maybe your therapist feels the same way, and it would be sad to be hiding something from her if it isn't necessary.
Posted by fallsfall on March 14, 2004, at 16:24:02
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) (long) » fallsfall, posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 12:16:39
> From now on, when she is mad, I'm going to come right out and ask her. The only question now is...will I believe her if she tells me she isn't? If she isn't mad, then what can I fix?
>
*** Maybe you don't need to "fix" anything. My therapist did spend a *lot* of time convincing me that he was telling me the truth about not being mad. If you don't believe her, you should tell her that you don't believe her.
>
> > >...I told her that I hated it because there were things I wanted to tell her, but couldn't yet because I don't know how to deal with the feelings yet. We talked about how I am completely 100% out of touch with my feelings. She wants to start "working on that." Uh-huh... I can see that happening.
>
> Well she said that she agreed with me, that if I was going to using cutting as a coping mechanism then she thought it was a bad idea to discuss certain things until I get back in touch with my feelings. It's hard to describe exactly how *out* of touch I am. I am so used to completely disociating myself from what I'm feeling and replacing it with something...more easy to deal with (more superficial).
>
*** OK, I misunderstood. I thought that you were not talking about things because you thought that you had to sort out all the feelings before you could bring it up. (It still stinks not to be able to talk about certain things with your therapist...)> I had also made an agenda of what I wanted to discuss, which I also forgot. So when I came into the session and she asked if there was something in particular to talk about, I said no...can you believe that. UGH!
*** UGH! is right!
>
> >It's a different way of looking at therapy - instead of "presenting" myself for her approval, I am *living* in the session (and we are both observing what that "living" looks like).
>
> Well this is what I need to learn to do! I definitely go in there and present the "guaranteed to be approved version" of myself. I'd like to go in there and just tell her I feel miserable, I want to come to see her not just once a week, but every single day. I'm not sure I'm going to get fixed here. I'm half-way convinced she's are going to dump me if I don't quit cutting. (I've decided to quit telling her about the cutting). It would be SO nice to be that honest with her. I think MAYBE I might be able to do that at my next session.
>
*** I definately think that you should be that honest with her. If you *can't* trust her (to help you even when you aren't your guaranteed approved version, to keep seeing you if you cut, etc.), then maybe you would rather know that sooner rather than later. Last week I knew I needed to tell him something mega-bad about myself. I didn't want to, but I knew that he couldn't really help me if I wasn't honest with him. I decided ahead of time to tell him (and told a friend, so that she would check with me afterwards). Talking about it was BRUTAL, but I just kept talking because I knew that it was necessary. I'm so glad that I told him - and he reacted in such a wonderful way - concerned, compassionate, but not pushy.> > *** Did you ASK her if it was a "genuine episode" or not? Usually, I think of these kinds of questions 5 minutes after I walk out the door (frustrating!).
>
> No, I kind of thought we would have more discussion over it and then come to a conclusion. I didn't think about asking her if it were genuine. Do you think it's still okay to ask at my next session?*** Absolutely. If you are thinking about something (and particularly if you are worried about it) you should ask about it.
> It's just new to me to actually tell someone my feelings and expect them to take any of it into account.
*** When a therapist can come through for you in a way that the world hasn't done before, it is so wonderful.
> Thanks for the post Falls, it was more helpful than you think! :) (((Falls))))
> Elle
>*** Good. Best of luck to you.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 2:50:20
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » tinydancer, posted by DaisyM on March 14, 2004, at 14:25:13
> Therapy has definately made me more aware of how lonely I am, how there is a huge hole in my life.
Wow. I really, really, identify with that. Before I started going to counseling, I was, not happy, but not upset that I don't have any friends or really any close relationships with anyone, and I even TOLD the psychologist this... But after I started going, I started to feel really lonely and empty.
Also, for some reason, after I leave my psychologist appointments, I feel really horrible, as though I am having a breakdown. I feel like I want to die. I even feel kind of suicidal; like I want to kill myself, except I know that I am not going to. I look forward to seeing him all week, sometimes unbearably, but then when it’s over, I feel like $#!& again. I am afraid to tell him that this happens, in part because I don’t want him to think I’m that crazy, but also because I could be punished by my school (seriously) if he reports that I am “a threat to [my]self or others.”
Posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 14:07:19
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » DaisyM, posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 2:50:20
I think what you are describing is "therapy hang-over"...one of my very first posts here was about trying to have these intense feelings DURING a session, not an hour later, alone. I still have melt downs after, sometimes it takes more than 24 hours for it to loosen its grip.
The best conclusion I can reach is that I've opened up painful areas, stuff I wouldn't allow to surface or even acknowledge. So when I leave, those wounds are open. And they hurt. And just when they start to heal up again, I go back in there and we rip them open again. This is why when you get in really deep, you sometimes need to go more often, and/or take a break from the topic.
I think you should tell your Therapist about how therapy is making you feel. He is a professional, and he doesn't want you to suffer. The first time I had suicidal thoughts I was floored. ME?!! I was such a sister-Mary-Sunshine, most of my life. I finally worked up the courage to tell my Therapist what I was thinking (I started out describing a dream) and he was amazingly gentle and understanding. I was really relieved that he helped me see that I wanted the pain to end, not my life. We did talk about intent vs. thoughts. And it has come up more than once, as we revisit really hard topics. I did ask him what he would do if I told him I was serious because I was concerned about the same thing you are. And, I have heard/read here that some psychologist do have a knee-jerk reaction to discussions around suicide and suicidal thoughts. But if you trust him, you will feel better if you tell him.
As far as lonely-- it does hurt doesn't it? I think therapy makes us aware of what it feels like to matter to someone else, not for what we can do for them, but for who we are. And then we turn around in our "real" life to find this same kind of caring, and if it is missing, the hole is huge.
Babble has helped me tremendously with this because here I can put things out that I can't with people in my life who expect me to have it all together all the time. I can't ask them for support, but I ask for it here all the time.
I hope you feel free to do that too.
Daisy
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 22:47:37
In reply to I hate therapy (rant), posted by Elle2021 on March 14, 2004, at 2:57:47
I like my psychologist... I sort of feel like I NEED him -- almost like an addiction... But how do I know if it's even doing any good? So far, I have mostly felt worse, and eventually, I am going to have to stop seeing him (I am graduating and probably leaving the state in May), which I think will be even more painful (I have cried multiple times, just thinking about it).
I strongly suspect, sometimes, that I would be better off not going. In fact, I even decided not to go back after the mandatory counseling, and I even told him of this decision, but knowing pretty well in the back of my mind that I would not actually be able to give him up. And guess what? I am still going! I sort of feel like I should NOT go, but I can't stop myself!
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 23:04:15
In reply to Re: I hate therapy (rant) » lonelygirl, posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 14:07:19
> The best conclusion I can reach is that I've opened up painful areas, stuff I wouldn't allow to surface or even acknowledge. So when I leave, those wounds are open. And they hurt. And just when they start to heal up again, I go back in there and we rip them open again. This is why when you get in really deep, you sometimes need to go more often, and/or take a break from the topic.
==========
I don't think I have even gotten in all that deep! It's not even a particular topic that makes me like that. For example, this week, we discussed how I was mad at myself for wasting my whole spring break when I had a lot of work I should have been doing. It's not like I was even talking about my childhood, or my parents, or constantly being rejected by men, or anything like that. I guess I better hope none of that ever comes up...
> And, I have heard/read here that some psychologist do have a knee-jerk reaction to discussions around suicide and suicidal thoughts. But if you trust him, you will feel better if you tell him.
==========
But I don't know how he will react... And because the counseling is at the student health center at my school, I could get in serious trouble with the school if he decides to report that I am "a danger to [my]self or others." If I ask him, I'm sure he will realize why I am asking, and if the answer is that he will report it, he might report it just because I asked! The school has really strict policies that he does not decide. I think my only choice is to keep it to myself.
> As far as lonely-- it does hurt doesn't it? I think therapy makes us aware of what it feels like to matter to someone else, not for what we can do for them, but for who we are. And then we turn around in our "real" life to find this same kind of caring, and if it is missing, the hole is huge.
==========
Yeah :(
This is the end of the thread.
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