![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 47 to 71 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » obSession, posted by Fallen4myT on March 5, 2004, at 17:30:13
Whether I am "experienced," or empathic, or even in a good position to be doing therapy right now is certainly up for debate. However, I am in clinical training...that part is for real. While I admire and respect Freud, disagreeing with him on some issues certainly does not make one "non-psychological" (and unfortunately, the current atmosphere seems to feel those who do agree with Freud are the wrong ones. I think he was a lot more intelligent than he is presently getting credit for).
I would not try to pose as a psychologist, nor am I trying to say I am a psychologist. I am a student, and yes, I have my own approach to therapy that will hopefully grow and change between now and beginning practice...God knows it already has in the mere 18 months I've been in this program.
ObSession, to answer two of your points...I am aware of DBT, and I do not think individuals with BPD all need hospitalization; in fact, I've done DBT with borderlines. Marsha Linehan...who could compete with Freud in terms of brilliance, has indeed found a very effective system and I personally love it. I've used "wise mind" with not only BPD clients, but depressed and anxious as well...often with fantastic results. However, part of what I like so much about DBT, is that it is very clear about defining boundaries. In my mind, the picture issue crosses boundaries.
Which brings me to another point...I discussed this issue with my "mentor" in the program today, and she seemed to take a middle line between my own view and those who strongly disagree. I do have respect for your therapists, and if they feel comfortable with the picture issue, I think it's fine. In that sense, I recant what I said last night as applies to your individual cases. However, I still have to hold that I'd really ask clients of all diagnoses, genders, marital statuses, etc, etc, to please consider that their therapists may be extremely uncomfortable with such requests, and in some cases, feel quite violated.
In regard to the mention of my post triggering suicidal feelings, I obviously did not intend for that nor did I anticipate the possiblity. I believe in more of a "tough love" approach. However, if anyone felt hurt to the core by my post, I apologize. If you feel suicidal, whether or not it is due to what was said in my post, please contact someone you know well and trust with your well-being.
If I have caused such pain in someone, I'd like to open up to a personal email or correspondence.
Posted by terrics on March 5, 2004, at 21:51:48
In reply to Y'all are much nicer than me » Apperceptor, posted by gardenergirl on March 5, 2004, at 11:08:05
It always makes me sad when there is conflict here. terrics
Posted by fallsfall on March 5, 2004, at 22:13:06
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
>In my mind, the picture issue crosses boundaries.
I have done a lot of reading of psychology books (those targeted at therapists, mostly - I bought Linehan's book and manual 8 years ago), and feel that I have a pretty good understanding for why there are boundaries.
Can you explain why my having a publically available picture of my therapist crosses any boundaries? I don't understand why it would make a therapist uncomfortable to know that I have a picture. Also, why would it be crossing boundaries to ask for a picture if I didn't have one (understanding that he would have the right to say no)?
I do understand that different therapists have different boundaries - because they are different people with different needs. But I'm not understanding why any therapist would feel violated if a patient asked to have a picture of them.
Truly trying to understand your point of view,
Falls
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 0:21:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
I thought about someones post as well as my therapist's remarks on it. I as well as he, and his many years of experience, feel that it is OK to ask and say anything in therapy. It is the JOB of your therapist to **deal with their own discomfort** IF any, and or seek the help of someone else(supervisor etc) to help them deal with it. It is NOT your job to save your T from discomfort. That is JUST OFF IMO. SO ASK AWAY if you want a picture and you may or may not get it but you WILL get the help of your T in underatanding why you want and need one and it can open up many areas for both of you. These are experienced professionals and they will DEAL with discomfort. Please don't THINK it YOUR job to save your T from discomfort as it IS NOT. AND THAT IS FROM A MAN WHO HAS OVER 15 YEARS AS A PSYCHOLOGIST
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 5, 2004, at 21:11:25
-----However, I still have to hold that I'd really ask clients of all diagnoses, genders, marital statuses, etc, etc, to please consider that their therapists may be extremely uncomfortable with such requests, and in some cases, feel quite violated.
For what reasons should they consider if the therapist might potentially feel violated? How would any client know what is comfortable or uncomfortable for the therapist unless s/he has the chance to check it out--which, is to ask the therapist?
I am in grad school myself, training to be an MFT. I have been seeing clients for the past two years, and have been in therapy as a client as well, way before I entered into school. I have felt triggered by many clients, and have consistently found it useful to look at those feelings in order to figure out what is going on in my relationship with each client. Often times, powerful progress can be made through working with transference. To me, that is the meat of the work, and the work is hard, for both the client and the therapist. I love this sentence that I came across a few years back:
All teachers must learn, and all healers must heal.
What makes transference and the attempt of acting out from that transference from clients so threatening, if the therapist is not experencing some sort of counter-transference him/hereself? We are only human, after all. Which makes it extremely important for me to get supervison whenever something powerful in me has been stirred up. For that, I never point the finger at the client. Something in me responded; the fault does not lie with the client for triggering it. I may just not like how I feel at that moment. It simply comes with the job, and I do get tired, burned out, stressed, frustrated, especially when working at a residential setting. Sometimes I want to pull my hair out, but I never do. (Thank God.) However, to blame the client, or to ask the client to behave a certain way just to make me feel relieved, I wonder if I run the risk of re-traumatizing the client since all s/he did was probably just brining their full self into the room. It does not make sense to me to invite someone into a space to open up, and then to penalize them by doing so, just becasue they might be saying something that sounds threatening to me. I know that opening up comes in all shapes and sizes and forms, and it is the very way each client opens up or not that makes this work so creative, for it is a true collaboration at its best.
I must say that I felt threatend and worried when I read the few posts from you. Sometimes I wonder what it means to take on the healer role? It is a tremendous job. It does take a lot of love and compassion, and I do get tired and burned out. I do get angry with the world when I see so many wounded and some of them self-destructive. To feel so is human, and to process my own countertransference is the art. I wonder how many of my colleagues feel the same way, and what is happening in each room with clients. Are they receiving what they need? How can this system be improved? But, I digress. Thoughts such as these were merely triggered by your posts, certainly not caused by them.
I must say though; every single one of my clients has taught me something. With their help, I was able to stretch pass my own narrow views and see that, on some level, everyone's anguish is our own. I read this sentence from another book: the gift of healing that we give is the gift of healing that we receive. I was touched because it did feel like that to sit with a client on many, many occasions. At each termination, I do not hesitate to tell my clients what they have given me: courage, love, compassion, self-care, sense of humor, vitality, trust, connection, intimacy, the list goes on and on.
So, to get back to my original questions: for what reasons should clients consider if the therapist might potentially feel violated? Whose needs will it serve? The client, or the therapist? How would any client know what is comfortable or uncomfortable for the therapist unless s/he has the chance to check it out--which, is to ask the therapist? How will clients know what the therapist's hot buttons and limits are, unless they engage and ask?
And certainly, just in my humble opinion, it's a whole other ball game once the questions are out of the bag. Therapy starts, or gets jump-started. Yay.
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:28:29
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Above post was intended for Apperceptor, and all babblers, of course, if anyone shall want to join in.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 1:40:41
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by obSession on March 5, 2004, at 17:16:53
> I feel that you demean the folks here...
>
> We have given our lives over to the hands of our therapists ... and that is nothing to take lightly as I feel you have, and even more so, demeaned the whole therapeutic process.
>
> I'm not sure where the agression and underlying demeaning attitude I feel you take with us is coming from, but it is a little frightful to envision the positive effect it would have on a potential client.
>
> tinydancer> to be so cruel as to chew people out for how they feel and work with their experienced therapists ... my T ... said VERY INSENSITIVE and a few more things I will not post.
>
> Fallen4myT> I find her more disturbing than I find us.
>
> if I was the american psychological association you wouldnt have a license
>
> You have gone into psychology for the wrong reasons
>
> We would never step foot in your office , you clearly have no regard for humanity or the suffering of individuals...
>
> obSessionThanks for everyone's efforts to be civil. Practice makes perfect? Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posting something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by tinydancer on March 6, 2004, at 1:42:41
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Wow. Any anguish I had felt from the earlier post has vanished with your incredibly wise, comforting words. Thank you, that was really touching and important words to hear from someone like you.
Posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 2:14:10
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
I agree with tinydancer. That was a very helpful post. I was feeling very judged and insecure about therapy after Apperceptor's posts. I really appreciate your comments about who it serves to worry about one's therapist. It reminded me of how my old T, when I would be concerned about anything about him, would always tell me that it wasn't my job to worry about him. That he was able to take care of himself, wrt anything that came up.
(((emmaley))) I needed just what you said.
- p
Posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » emmaley, posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 2:14:10
Thank you for your warmth, tinydancer and pegasus. I am glad that some of my words brought you comfort. Makes me feel useful.
Yet, I want to say that I received much help from this board when I first visited as well. I was working out some transference issues with my own therapist last year, and many were kind, warm, helpful and considerate towards me at that time. I was feeling vulnerable, and intellect was of little use. Dinah's suggestion of "In Session" was tremendous. Since then, I have been coming to this board every now and then to learn, and I have learned so much from reading the posts. Internet may be cold, but the emotions contained in words real. I have become quite fond of many here.
Best wishes,
Posted by fallsfall on March 6, 2004, at 9:17:42
In reply to Thank you, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
Please come back and post early and often.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2004, at 9:27:52
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
That's how my therapist describes the process, too. But he's really laid back, has tons of experience, and supervises other therapists.
He had a little countertransference problem with me, but seems to have overcome it nicely.
Posted by rs on March 6, 2004, at 11:17:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Thanks for sharing that. That was really comforting here. Say many times hope there are good therapist out there like mine and you are one of them. Best to you. My T would answere anything and he is really honest with me as far as know. That helps therpay with trust so very much
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 12:39:03
In reply to Thank you, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 3:18:37
Thank you from me also a lot of us were hurt insulted and felt attacked by another poster and it seems you and I must have posted on the same subject matter at the same time. This is what I was saying when I said I took that post sent it to my therapist and he made the comments I posted anyhow I hope people read my subject "A comment on if a therapist;s discomfort" I think people need to KNOW they can ask and be themselves in therapy. Good Job
Posted by confetti on March 6, 2004, at 16:28:05
In reply to Re: Do you have a picture of your T?, posted by Apperceptor on March 4, 2004, at 23:46:39
Apperceptor, I don't believe your post was the "inappropriate" part of this thread. In fact, this thread creeped me out so much I'll be getting my advice/tips somewhere else.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 16:57:28
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by emmaley on March 6, 2004, at 1:23:44
Oh my gosh, I'm so with you on this. Great post. And I agree with other posts which emphasize that is is the T's responsiblity to deal with anything stirred up in them. It is NOT the client's responsibility to protect the T.
gg
Posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 17:25:35
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » emmaley, posted by gardenergirl on March 6, 2004, at 16:57:28
I would just like to indicate that I never said the client should "protect" the therapist from anything. I simply asked for respect.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 17:43:05
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 17:25:35
> I would just like to indicate that I never said the client should "protect" the therapist from anything. I simply asked for respect.>>
That you did, but you also said and I quote you below. By using words like creepy and bizarre, inappropriatem teenybopper and so on you really hurt my feelings and it seems from a lot of posts generated off of here...many other posters feelings too. I also feel that by saying these requests are creepy that it is a way of saying do not ask and by not asking who are we protecting???? So you implied it to me anyways..I do not agree with this nor did my T. Might it have been best to just say. I find these requests uncomfortable myself and state why without the bashing, I for one have not asked for a picture but would love one, And I am going to be leaving this site semi soon because this has really bothered me.
>>
It takes a very strong psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist to work with somebody who has Borderline Personality Disorder, and you are not making it any easier by asking for these bizarre, inappropriate favors. Would you ask your optometrist for his or her picture? Probably not. So try to give your therapists the same respect. We have spines too, and with that comes the ability to feel chills run up and down it with these...for lack of a better word, creepy...requests.>>
Posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 17:50:20
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 17:25:35
I still don't get why it's disrespectful or creepy to want a picture of one's therapist. I think it's kind of sweet. It seems to me to show that the relationship is meaningful to the client, which I always thought of as a good sign in therapy.
I'm also a therapist in training, and if any of my clients wanted a picture I would admire the courage that it took them to ask, and I would certainly give them one. I'd be glad that they had one, if it helped them. I was rather shocked to hear that you thought it was creepy. Or maybe it wasn't exactly the picture thing that you found creepy? I would like to understand your thoughts about that.
- p
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 17:57:07
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 17:43:05
Just wanted to make that clear
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 18:03:22
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » Apperceptor, posted by pegasus on March 6, 2004, at 17:50:20
Pegasus, I wish I was brave enough to ask my T for one and I wish my T was as cool as you would be. He might be but as a person with a very traumatic childhood and adulthood I am very shy in ways. I am so afraid of being smacked down I wish I could ask my T. I usually just sit and hope on things. Like now that I emailed him some issues in here I hope he will say HEY FALLEN YOU WANT A PICTURE? So I admire those in here who are so brave and ask...I couldnt I have had enough in my life I could not take the chance of his saying NO YOU CREEP ME OUT GET OUT OF HERE..or something else that would crash my world .
Posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 18:34:17
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg, posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 17:43:05
I was inappropriate in how I worded my original post. I hate to sound flippant but I'm starting to run out of ways to recant or apoligize without compromizing the elements I do still believe.
I'd like to share with you an aphorism I've always loved-
"The arrow shot by another's bow is only barbed by our own thoughts."
I do not say that to relieve myself of the responsibilty for what I said...I indeed did use language that was hurtful, although I intended it more for "wakeup" purposes than offense (bad strategy on my part).
Much of what a few people have said has deeply offended me as well. While I am the original instigator and therefore don't have a right to complain, is it quite possible that neither of us are taking into account how deep some of the verbal jabs may be going? I certainly see where I was wrong, and I do regret that my comments came out so sharply. I'd like to continue the conversation without these attacks...no more from me direct at others, and if I may be so humble, please stop leveling the bombs my way as well (if you have a few more to get off your chest, go for it, but then please ignore me or tell me what has bothered you specifically, as you have been, so I may address it).
I did not write my post on behalf of the APA, the AAMFT, the ABACABAHCHAHCA, or whatever. I wrote it as me, and therefore I'm not saying "therapists universally hate this." I'm saying it troubles me, and MAY trouble others. Clearly it does not trouble a great many.
Fallen, it seems kind of counterintuitive to leave psychobabble. You've been an active participant and have received a great deal of support, including this thread.
Besides, if I'm simply masquerading and have no real clue what I'm talking about, why does it matter what I think? I really, honestly do not intend for that to sound sarcastic, but rather I hope it gives you a way to put what I've said into your own working perspective.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 18:55:56
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » Fallen4myT, posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 18:34:17
I accept your sort of apology for how you worded things and I agree that this topic IS done for the most part because it is jabbing at all involved. I too do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I am not leaving because of "YOU" but to be honest (and I am sure you want honesty) because what was a fun area for me is now like a field of landminds and also some civility issues maybe. I am in therapy, I have "issue" so for me to come here and disagree is GOOD and I like that but to have areas ruined and have hurtful things thrown at me and others no matter WHO does it or why is not what I want or need. A number of people have asked me not to leave so we shall see. I STILL do stand my all I said as far as what I feel and believe.
I hope I am not "going at it" but I did address what you said about how you said you did not say to protect your T. I really would like a reply to that but you obviously do not have to. I personally see that as I posted by saying what you said THE IMPLIED message was that. So that I understand, you are now saying it is OK to ask? But wish people would not ask you? I ask this not because of what you say you are going to school for but so I can be clear on what you ARE saying so I can better understand your point. When anyone posts I really wish to understand what they are trying to say not just the words they use.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 19:10:33
In reply to Re: please be civil » tinydancer » Fallen4myT » obSession, posted by Dr. Bob on March 6, 2004, at 1:40:41
I am sorry I should have worded this to say that no matter who said what *I* as well as my T feel it is insensitive to shame people for what they desire or wish to ask their therapist.
> to be so cruel as to chew people out for how they feel and work with their experienced therapists ... my T ... said VERY INSENSITIVE and a few more things I will not post.
>
> Fallen4myT
Posted by Apperceptor on March 6, 2004, at 19:28:53
In reply to Re: thanks for the heads up, gg » Apperceptor, posted by Fallen4myT on March 6, 2004, at 18:55:56
What I am saying is that whether or not it is "okay" to ask is dependent on the unique personalities and dynamic between you and your therapist. So is it "okay," yes, it's "okay," because I do think you should be allowed to say/ask whatever you want in therapy.
However, "allowed" does not mean you necessarily should. If your situation with your therapist makes it seem appropriate, great. However, please, in general, do not assume that your therapist is immune to whatever you say and will just be able to roll with it no matter what. Our difference between "respect" and "protect," it seems, is very small. I do not think you have a DUTY to your therapist unless something is in your therapeutic contract. Therefore, I don't see it as "protecting." But please afford your therapist the respect you would give to anyone else who may not be invincible.
I guess the picture issue at face value isn't what concerns me. I was initially more worried by what these desires for pictures seemed to imply...where they were being placed, how they were being treated, the relationship implicities that APPEARED to be being attached (note I did not say they were. This is only how it sounded to me). Having a picture is fine if that's all it is...I guess if a client asked me for a picture and I thought it was just because they enjoyed having a collection of pictures of those who've helped them, as a previous poster mentioned, I'd be happy to oblige. They already know what I look like, so no harm done.
However, some attitudes seemed initially to be a bit more.....I wish I had the right word. Maladaptive...romantic...fetishistic (not DSM sense, just everyday use). PLEASE, please, pleaaase do not take offense to the use of those words. They are NOT what I am trying to say, but I can't think of a better way to put it and I'm hoping you can get my message. In these cases, I think it might help the therapy process to keep in mind that your therapist is bound by extremely stringent ethical guidelines which, realistically, can be difficult to follow for some people at some times. I guess when I hear a client trying to get a therapist to break those guidelines, I feel a bit disappointed in the motives for therapy. ***HOWEVER*** - and I will not respond to posts about what I just said that ignore what I am about to say:
1. You do not ultimately have any of the responsibility to keep your therapist out of trouble with ethics boards. This is entirely up to him or her.
2. I, and I hope other current and future mental health professionals, would NEVER blame YOU, the client, should an ethical violation take place, regardless of what either you or the therapist may or may have not done to encourage it.
So really, do what you want. This is more of an appeal to compassion and approprium, rather than how "Apperceptor Feels Therapy Should Be, vol. 2."
There is also the issue that you may not anticipate how your requests may affect your therapists. This, again, is not your problem. However, do not be surprised if it doesn't go as planned.
Actual Example from 2 Years Ago (abbreviated, but factual):
<"blah blahs" are not to trivialize, just to edit the parts we are all too familiar with>
Client: Can we just go get something to eat?
Me: I'm sorry, XXX, I think (nice calm boundary talk blah blah).
Client: So you don't like me enough?
Me: I do, but (reiterate boundary blah blah)
Client: So you think I'm nice but you wouldn't date me?
Me: XXX, that isn't quite what I said (rephrase boundary blah)
Client: So are you a faggot?Now look what happens here. Just so happens, that yes, I am a gay male...a "faggot." How do I respond? For one, the client has used a term that has seriously offended me, and I didn't hesitate to professionally share that with her. But now what is my recompense? Yes, I am a "faggot," but am I comfortable telling clients that while I try to deal with current workplace bias and apply to graduate school? No, not in the least. Can I think of an excuse that won't be obviously scraping the barrel, right there on the spot? No. Have I been caught completely offguard and left stumbling? Yes. Do I continue seeing her? Yes. Has it adversely affected the therapeutic relationship? I try not to let it, I consult with supervisors, I do soul-searching, I remind myself that I am a professional, but......unfortunately, yes! Because I am still a human.
I hope my position is more clear. Please let me know if you'd like more flushed out.
Regards-
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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