![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 13:06:32
In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 11:39:40
>I felt that if my therapist did not give me the approval that I needed that I couldn't exist. It wasn't so much that I would die (or kill myself) - it was more like I would disappear or disintegrate. I wouldn't "be". I have read that this kind of feeling indicates a lack of "self".
>Talk about striking a chord! The need is so deep within isn't it? What I learned from therapy was 'Yes you exist, yes you matter, yes you feelings matter, no you are not alone in an indifferent dangerous universe'.
And that goes for everybody here!
(Credit cards accepted)
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 14:44:02
In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23
>
> And somehow I think I didn't ask the questions that I really had in mind, because I don't know what they were.I might be getting this wrong, but is it like 'if I could only find the right question and get the right answer then things will be OK?' (Or if I can read the right book, get the right dx...?) But sometimes I wonder whether the words exist, and that things happen inside, and during therapy, that our language just doesn't have the words and ideas to describe. Also wonder whether the struggling itself works in a way that that we don't understand. So that there's a result from your and your therapist's frustrating efforts even if it doesn't feel like it.
> I know he wants me to take responsibility, and probably doesn't want me to need validation or caring or reassurance from him.
> >
> I feel so needy. And not righteously needy like an infant. But greedily needy. Like I'm trying to suck something from him.
>
I used to sometimes think I was like a vampire.
It might have been Jung (not exactly my greatest idol, but he had some good ideas), who said that our problems are rarely 'solved', but we manage to grow out of them eventually.Hope this waffling on is of some use.
Take care of yourself this weekend.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:09
In reply to Re: Validation » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 12:29:00
>
> Do you feel a little more secure now?
>Of *course* not!!! :)
Actually maybe yes. Today was a better session, and having a good session may be more validating than anything he can actually say. It was the sort that puts you through the wringer and terrifies you, yet you feel like you're in a safe place anyway. Go figure.
It started out the way it had been yesterday. I wailed "This is just like yesterday. You're reminding me of Dr. Bob!!!". He laughed, admitted that we had probably seen too much of each other this week (which I had thought was the problem), then realized that probably sounded rude and added something about it being an intense week. Then he started listening and I started describing better my thinking processes and why I was asking what I was asking, and when he understood why he quit being frustrated. That's what I like best about my therapist. He's almost always ready to take a deep breath and start over from scratch. (beaming smile)
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:32
In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:09
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55
In reply to Re: Validation » Dinah, posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 14:44:02
> >
> > And somehow I think I didn't ask the questions that I really had in mind, because I don't know what they were.
>
> I might be getting this wrong, but is it like 'if I could only find the right question and get the right answer then things will be OK?' (Or if I can read the right book, get the right dx...?)LOL. You have me pegged there! That sounds so much like me. :) But getting the right answers, reading the right books, and finding the right diagnosis *does* help. Even if it doesn't make it all better. Because it's the not understanding that makes things so scary for me.
But in this case it might have been as much frustration at my inability to make myself clear as anything. I told him today that my son is too young to ask him why he did something and get a coherent answer. And that it was way more productive to say, "Well, when I was little, sometimes I did that and the reason was xxxx, but I've heard other people say they do it because yyyy. But I suppose the reason could also be zzzzz. Do any of these sound right?" And he will say yes or no and maybe tell us a bit more. I told him that sometimes I needed him to do that because I didn't have the right words. And he told me to tell him that if I needed to. But remembering that under stress when I'm trying to please him by coming up with an answer is tough. Sigh. At least I feel understood today.
Validation! :)
> > I feel so needy. And not righteously needy like an infant. But greedily needy. Like I'm trying to suck something from him.
> >
> I used to sometimes think I was like a vampire.I think of myself more as a particularly tenacious leech. :)
> It might have been Jung (not exactly my greatest idol, but he had some good ideas), who said that our problems are rarely 'solved', but we manage to grow out of them eventually.
Well, I'd better get started growing!! I haven't that many years left!
>
> Hope this waffling on is of some use.Always. :)
>
> Take care of yourself this weekend.You too.
Posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 20:58:13
In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23
I could have written this - except maybe the appearance part because I would never ask about that part. Never! (I don't want to know, really).
But the rest - totally. Especially about the greedy needy part.
And he would tell me also it was a projection. That is was coming from an old place. But I have a sense that THIS is one of the key pieces to helping me. Making me BELIEVE that he won't fail me. That people can help me, I don't have to do it all myself.
I'm trying to believe this really.
Posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 21:07:07
In reply to Re: Validation » Crooked Heart, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55
>>>And that it was way more productive to say, "Well, when I was little, sometimes I did that and the reason was xxxx, but I've heard other people say they do it because yyyy. But I suppose the reason could also be zzzzz. Do any of these sound right?" And he will say yes or no and maybe tell us a bit more. I told him that sometimes I needed him to do that because I didn't have the right words...
<<<EXACTLY. My Therapist does this sometimes and other times he waits for me. I think he doesn't want to plant ideas but sometimes I have none.Today he told me that he should remember to spend sometime going over the process again so I can see that what I am feeling is totally normal, not that it isn't unique to me. He said, "I know understanding the process and what might happen is important to you. We have to feed your intellect while holding your feelings." Yes. Yes!! It took 1/2 hour of a meltdown on the phone but I finally, finally, felt like I could make it through the weekend. And he just kept talking until I could let him go. So yes, sometimes they get it totally right. But Monday still seems pretty far away.
:(
Posted by shortelise on February 14, 2004, at 1:34:20
In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:28:19
Indeed, it's what would remain there scares the pee out of me.
What if there is nothing? My neurosis is pretty interesting, except when it makes me cry for days on end. What if it's the only interesting thing about me? What if I am a boring dolt without it?
ShortE> This is *such* a good point. And also, if we were to just stand straight, as you say, and look truth in the eye not only would it vanish but, maybe the difficulty is, what would remain in its place? Are we just too used to being full of self-doubt? Is self-doubt such an integral part of our being that we'd feel not "ourselves" without it?
>
> Sometimes I truly feel self-deprecation and self-doubt are huge parts of my personality and maybe are things that are part of a certain charm. So who would I be without it? I really admire people who are confident but cannot stand people who feel and say that, for example, they're beautiful or sexy, etc.--total turn-off. Would never want to be one of these people or be around them. But how do you begin to feel more validated about yourself but not come off like a bragger?
>
>
> > Is it a bad habit?
> >
> > Sometimes I wonder that. I wonder if my madness isn't a habit, just a nasty habit, and that if I were to choose to stand straight and look the truth in the eye, it would vanish.
> >
> > I wonder, what's in this for me that I can't give it up, or choose not to? How do I benefit?
> >
> > I have only questions.
> >
> > ShortE
>
>
Posted by Elle2021 on February 14, 2004, at 2:18:44
In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26
>Do you guys ever feel like endless black holes in terms of needing validation?
Yes. Especially concerning my professors. I have actually taken to tayloring my papers to their likes and dislikes in an effort to up my chances for validation (pathetic isn't it?). I have to give myself a little credit though, because if it's something I disagree with I say so, but if I don't have an opinion, then... It works actually. But still, no matter how much validation I recieve, I have a huge craving for more. It's a craving that can't be satisfied. I guess I'm just really insecure that way. Maybe someday I won't need to be told I'm intelligent or pretty, I'll just know I'm good enough. That would be nice.
Elle
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 14, 2004, at 5:27:07
In reply to Re: Validation » Crooked Heart, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55
Maybe I'm beginning to get it to. I loved what you described about talking to your son. I guess you mean about trying to help someone get a handle on something when they don't know what it is and neither do you? Have I got that right?
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 14, 2004, at 8:16:31
In reply to Re: Validation, posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 21:07:07
>
> Today he told me that he should remember to spend sometime going over the process again so I can see that what I am feeling is totally normal, not that it isn't unique to me. He said, "I know understanding the process and what might happen is important to you. We have to feed your intellect while holding your feelings." Yes. Yes!! It took 1/2 hour of a meltdown on the phone but I finally, finally, felt like I could make it through the weekend. And he just kept talking until I could let him go. So yes, sometimes they get it totally right. But Monday still seems pretty far away.
> :(Is it seeing some sort of a pattern and purpose above what otherwise feels like chaotic pointless bloody suffering? (So the left brain has its uses?)
Oh dear this is going to sound so glib, and I don't know if it's what you need either. Please believe you will get through this and be better for it. Roll on Monday!
Thinking of you.
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2004, at 8:34:26
In reply to Re: Validation, posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 21:07:07
It's Tuesday for me, but as I'm feeling better it's not too scary.
I wish mine was more like yours in not needing things spelled out so clearly, like mine does. Some of what I say seems to be relatively common sense, yet it seems to come as a huge revelation to him. I dunno, maybe it's good for me to learn to verbalize that sort of stuff, but it's frustrating sometimes.
Yesterday he was getting annoyed at my asking over and over if he was angry about something. He said it felt like I thought he was lying to me. And I asked him if it had occurred to him that I was just so frightened by what I said that I needed to hear that he wasn't angry a few times to let it sink in. It hadn't occurred to him, and he wasn't angry anymore when I explained. But that wasn't a tough thing to figure out was it?
I'm glad you don't have to struggle like that with yours. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 14, 2004, at 8:35:33
In reply to Re: Validation » Dinah, posted by Crooked Heart on February 14, 2004, at 5:27:07
Posted by Racer on February 14, 2004, at 9:07:20
In reply to Re: Validation, posted by DaisyM on February 12, 2004, at 23:50:33
Because I am that Black Hole.
Yeah, I'm a work in progress, but I've found somethings that have at least helped the way I look at it.
First one is that I'm learning to admit how much of my self-image is as a LOSER, a total and complete failure, generally worthless, yaddida, yaddida. Now, the next step for some people who aren't losers would be to counter those feelings by pointing at something one does well, as proof that it's not true. I'm not there yet. But I am at a point where I can say, "OK, it's true that I don't do [x] perfectly, and it's probably true that I don't do [x] quite as well as I might be able to if I worked harder at it, but it's also true that I have completed [x] and that does count for something." I can also say things like, "Anyone who looks closely enough to see the mistakes I made in [x] Is Not My Friend." and "I don't have to compete against anyone except myself, so it doesn't matter than someone else could have done it better -- the *fact* is that I decided to do it, and then I did it."
Another thing that helped me was figuring out why I always feel like such a loser. Simple and clear as mud. My mother, when I was a kid, sometimes gave me approval for things. There was a picture I drew once, which she praised to the skies for having a precocious sense of perspective. Well, even at 5 or 6, I knew I was copying something I'd seen, so that praise didn't validate me. As I got older, though, my mother's unmet need for validation from her mother started her criticism of me ratcheting into high gear. Oh, and every thing my mother does is flawless. It really is. That's a tough act to follow, as you can imagine. So, now I know where my need for constant validation comes from: and I know something that helps me find an answer for improvement. Recognize who's approval I'm really needing, and start to find ways to internalize the validation I didn't get from the outside. I have to start learning to be my own internal mother's voice of approval.
None of the sorts of exercises where you write down your accomplishments has ever helped me, by the way, because I can always list the failures within them all, and even if I don't write that part down, I know it's there. But little triumphs help me. A lot of the little triumphs are very little, and they relate to something I've made. Not exactly the stuff of which legends are made, but they help. I get great satisfaction of a seam well sewn and pressed. Completing a sweater for my husband, or even for someone else, gives a good feeling. I think my next step is to learn to get that feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment from something unrelated to fibers.
I guess it's still baby steps, but maybe some of this will get you thinking in ways that you hadn't before, and maybe you'll find the key to yourself there. I know that's happened to me on these boards, so there's a payment on my debt.
Good luck.
Posted by shortelise on February 14, 2004, at 13:41:38
In reply to You can't be the Black Hole for validation...., posted by Racer on February 14, 2004, at 9:07:20
Racer, I've read several of your posts and thought you were a man. I hope that doesn't offend - I just thought you might find it interesting.
I can't quite get the distinction between pride in one's accomplishments, and vanity. I seem to be in constant need of having my accomplishments witnessed and praised. And thanks for what you wrote about your mother - it is the case with mine as well and I never thought of it. I used to be one who told kids "the truth". What a ridiculous thing to do, and how hurtful.
I am trying to learn to accept that I am not perfect.And you: if nothing else, do you ever write well!
ShortE
Posted by DaisyM on February 14, 2004, at 16:51:48
In reply to Re: Validation » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on February 14, 2004, at 8:34:26
I'm sorry you do have to struggle, but unlike you, I'm not sure I would. I don't trust myself in this arena because I'm still not sure of all the "rules." So if I didn't/don't get the response I want, I assume that it either wasn't an appropriate question or I shouldn't want that. It isn't that I don't ask the same questions over and over again, but I don't know if I could do that if the response I get wasn't one of reassurance.
I don't feel that great today so i don't know if this is making any sense at all. I guess I'm impressed that you keep at it until he understands what you need.
That said, I will now agree that I am glad that my Therapist understands the need to feed my intellect so that I can tolerate my feelings. He is *at least* :) as smart as I am (OH THE EGO COMES OUT!!) but I can't imagine working with someone who doesn't recognize that about me. He told me once that I miss nothing, and he is right.
Right now I just need him to be there for me. And he is doing a great job of that. I feel very lucky.
Posted by pegasus on February 14, 2004, at 16:52:56
In reply to Re: You can't be the Black Hole for validation...., posted by shortelise on February 14, 2004, at 13:41:38
> can't quite get the distinction between pride in one's accomplishments, and vanity. I seem to be in constant need of having my accomplishments witnessed and praised.
Yes, exactly. I am exactly that way also. There have been times in therapy when I wanted to talk about "bad" things I've done, and the only way I could do it was if I brought in good things to show my T as well. I brought in a good comment from a prof on a paper I'd written, and a card a friend had given me saying that she appreciated me, and stuff like that. And it was so humiliating and transparent. It felt vain and needy. I just couldn't stand to only show the bad stuff. I wanted my T to approve of me.
- p
Posted by Racer on February 15, 2004, at 16:41:06
In reply to Re: You can't be the Black Hole for validation.... » shortelise, posted by pegasus on February 14, 2004, at 16:52:56
I go through it with the pdoc and the therapist, both. With the pdoc, he's so dang slurpy I almost slide out of my chair, tripping over my tongue like a bedazzled teenager with her first crush. Then I do things like Show Off and Generally Make An @$$ Of Myself. Last time, I made him look at an essay I wrote about a science fiction book that's on the web at an obscure site. {{groan}} I can't believe I did that.
Some of that is mistrust, on my part. Fear that he'll label me "hypochondriac" or "atypical Munchausen" or something. I know a lot about medicine and politics because of weird coincidences in my past life, so I get a little pedantic sometimes, and ask some questions that have produced negative reactions in other doctors. So, my very first words to him at our first appointment were, "I'm not your average patient, I had a 4.0 GPA for math and science in college, and I need to be informed and involved in every step of this process." (By the way, a number of men have told me that I'm a little frightening sometimes.) Now, which way would you take that? Insecurity raising its head, screaming 'you'd better take me seriously!'? Reasonable concern, considering some of my past experiences with doctors and meds? Arrogance? (Can't be the last, since I can't spell it, right?)
With the T, I have to use examples of "Above Average" to illustrate my basic worthlessness. Like how I got that 4.0 in math and science. "Gee, I really wasn't a very good student, because, see, to get those grades, I had to sign up for a tutor, set up study groups, transcribe my notes after every class, and read a lot of background materials. That's proof that I just didn't get it right." Even I can see how ridiculous that is. Maybe it was all a sham, but who cares? I did do all those things, I did get my A's, and it doesn't have to be easy to be done right. (Obviously, I haven't quite gotten past that one. Maybe it's my mother's voice, ringing from years past: "If you'd really been that smart, you would have taught yourself to read before you started school.")
We carry a lot of baggage around, and this need for approval is probably something that we don't eliminate, but refine into a healthier desire for respect. That's my thought for the day. So exhausting I'll have to go lie down, now...
Posted by pegasus on February 15, 2004, at 18:01:09
In reply to Ditto » pegasus, posted by Racer on February 15, 2004, at 16:41:06
Did your mother really say that!?!? Wow, I'm sorry. That's . . . um . . . kind of a high standard for judging whether you were smart.
I'm sure that you are very smart, even if you *did* work hard to get the good grades. Working hard to get good grades is not incompatible with being smart. In fact, it's smart to work hard at something that is important to you.
I had a lot of similar stuff from my parents growing up. I remember them comparing me to my sister (who never got anything but an A+ in any class in her whole life). They would say, "You could have gotten an A if you'd really tried." But I knew that I was trying really hard already, so that meant I was dumb. But . . . the truth is that I *am* pretty smart. It's just too bad that I had to spend so much of my life trying to prove it to myself and live up to that mom-talk (PhD in the wrong field and everything). I wish I could have known it a long time ago, and trusted myself more.
And same for you! You are so smart in the things that you say here. We don't have to know about your 4.0 in college or anything else to see that. I'm glad you are here. I appreciate your comments about refining the need for approval to a desire for respect. That sounds so much healthier!
- p
Posted by Racer on February 15, 2004, at 20:44:36
In reply to Re: Ditto » Racer, posted by pegasus on February 15, 2004, at 18:01:09
Thank you. It really helps to be able to express some of those things to people who won't back away in disgust or terror. A girlfriend of mine just admitted to me on the telephone that she wasn't leaving her house at all, and then told me how good it felt to her to tell someone who would try to understand. It is a good feeling.
My mother. Yep, she's also the one who, when I sewed two blouses in one day to wear on a trip abroad, held one up and told me, "When you get back, I'll show you your mistakes and how to do it right." (My ex-bf, who always picked out my clothes when we traveled together, liked the blouses. They couldn't have been too bad.) Oh, and let's not forget some of her other gems: "You just wanted to live with your father, you thought that would have been better" (<<scariest thought of my young life: having to live with my father. Maybe some projection going on?)
Then again, the day that Mother was stomping around her kitchen complaining about everything that could ever go wrong in her life while eating a grapefruit: "... and I just swallowed a grapefruit seed and it'll sprout in my stomach -- will it sprout in my stomach?" When I said, "Only if you eat dirt, Mom," she almost fell down laughing. She's also the one who gave me the sex ed talk starting with, "Don't believe that sex ed class in school when they tell you you can't get VD from a toilet seat or a doorknob. You *can* get VD from a doorknob. You just have to be pretty acrobatic, it can't be comfortable, and all things considered it's probably best to get it from a man..."
There's good and bad in all of us. At peak form, my mother can reduce me to tears in a fraction of a second. Whether they're tears of anguish or laughter really does depend on her mood and her topic.
Oh, and there's the other side of it, too. You know that old saw, "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you?" With the Mother-Daughter Dance, it's hard to separate the stimulus from the response. Yes, my mother can say things that cut me to the quick, but that doesn't mean that I'm not already hyper-sensitised to her behavior or words. I think it's a little like an allergy: You have to be exposed to the allergen before you'll react to it.
(No, I *will not* tell my mother that our relationship is like an allergy. No. Absolutely not. But it is a good analogy, ain't it?)
Posted by pegasus on February 16, 2004, at 1:27:43
In reply to Thank you for the validation » pegasus, posted by Racer on February 15, 2004, at 20:44:36
Sounds like a complicated relationship. Aren't they all (sigh). Your mom sounds like a hoot when she wants to be. I'm glad that you described some of her good moments as well. And, it does sound like she was rather hard on you during her bad moments. And, you know, don't you, that those were her moments, not yours? It's just so hard to hear that stuff from our moms.
My mom has no idea how she has affected me. In her mind, she never had favorites, never thought of any of us as smarter or most stupid than the others, never put pressure on us or was anything other than completely supportive. And when I try to see it through her eyes, I can. But when I see it through my eyes . . . well, she was a great mom, and I always felt loved, but I know I didn't measure up to her standard. So, all my life I feel second rate.
Oh, sorry for making this about my junk. I'm glad the validation helped!
- p
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 16, 2004, at 2:48:04
In reply to Re: Thank you for the validation » Racer, posted by pegasus on February 16, 2004, at 1:27:43
>
> My mom has no idea how she has affected me. In her mind, she never had favorites, never thought of any of us as smarter or most stupid than the others, never put pressure on us or was anything other than completely supportive. And when I try to see it through her eyes, I can. But when I see it through my eyes . . . well, she was a great mom, and I always felt loved, but I know I didn't measure up to her standard. So, all my life I feel second rate.
>OMG, pegasus, I could sort of see my daughter writing something like that.
This needs me to look at it.
Posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 12:07:23
In reply to Re: Thank you for the validation » Racer, posted by pegasus on February 16, 2004, at 1:27:43
Hey, don't worry about putting your "junk" into it. I do that all the time -- and then feel guilty about it! That's throwing my junk into the mix, so for heaven's sake feel free to throw in some of your own. Hell, we get enough junk, maybe we can open a junkyard?
While all relationships are complex, I really do think that Mother-Daughter is the most complex. I'm middle aged, my mother is almost retirement age. We still do all the steps in the Mother Daughter Dance. I know she loves me, and I can point to dozens of things in my childhood that made her The World's Best Mother Ever, things she brushes aside as failures. And things that she still beats herself up over, things that we can't go back and change, make her miserable to this day, which makes her sometimes even harder to deal with. Right now, she's going through a conciliatory stage. Trying to make up to me for what she did and continues to do. It's almost more distressing than the worst of times.
(While talking to my aunt a few months ago, she mentioned that my mother was really touched and impressed by a gift I'd given her. I was sceptical, saying that Mom had never expressed any interest in, let alone compliment for, anything I'd ever made for her. My aunt's comment: "Sure she does, she's always impressed and always talks about how talented you are." Great, I'm the only one she's never said anything like that to. So, Auntie must have told Mom about the conversation. At Christmas, I gave her a sweater vest I'd made for her from scratch. Dyed the wool, spun it, designed it, and knitted it. Mom's response, as she tried it on right away: "Is this OK? Do you like it? Are you happy with it?" She asked me! She still hasn't said that she likes it. She probably never will. And it breaks my heart that she can't see that I want her to like it. That whether she likes it or not is what matters, not whether I like it or not. Does that make any sense?)
Here's another Mom story for you. When I was a kid, Mom used to try to wear me out as often as possible, as moms will do with young children. One of her favorite methods was taking me out to get peanut butter. How could this exhaust a child? First, we took a bus from home to the big bus depot. Then we took another bus from San Francisco to Oakland. Then we took a local Oakland bus to the neighborhood where the store was. Then, we walked several blocks to the store. At the store, we filled a bag with peanuts, then took it to the guy who ran the peanut butter machine, who ground it into peanut butter, right before our eyes. Pay for it, and reverse the trip. Think about that, from a child's perspective. That, my friends, is a true adventure. Going to exotic places, and watching a wondrous machine transform peanuts into magical peanut butter.
And we'd go to Golden Gate Park. Mom would ride on the swings with me, and she could always swing much higher than I could, and she could swing as long as I could. Swinging on swings is the best thing I know to this day, and somewhere in my psyche is a painful and almost overwhelming desire to share that magic and freedom with my mother again.
She'd take me to the DeYoung Museum in the Park. We'd go through all the rooms, and Mom always let me linger in places that most interested me. And she told me about the art we saw, including lying down on the floor to demonstrate the difference perspective made in certain great religious paintings, like those of El Greco. And when I told her the sign on one of the paintings was incorrect, she took me seriously enough to point it out to the museum. (Who else would listen to a six or seven year old like that?) Every time we went there, usually a couple of times a month, we'd take a break at the same place, sit down by a great Dore urn. The urn is covered with cherubim, and insects, and all sorts of figures. It's about 6 or 7 feet tall, and one of my favorite pieces of art. Every time we sat there, I'd wander around it, looking at every figure. Every time we sat there, my mother would look at the cherubim, pulling at insects antenae, and say, "{chuckle} those bad children..." We went together to the museum a few years ago, and came across the same urn. Mother's response to it? Chuckled and said, "Oh, those bad children..."
Yes, I love her, she was magical, she will always be captivating and magical and enchanting to me. And the great tragedy of it all is that she'll never know how deeply I mean that and how much I love her. Yes, she caused me great harm. Yes, some of her actions and some of the things she said caused permanent scars. And? My scars now, no more responsibility for them on her part. Now, I can just plain love her and admire her and respect her. Those scars are now mine, my responsibility, my choice about whether or not to have them treated. And I still love her.
Maybe, just maybe, I'll write some of that to my mother. Maybe I just will do that. I'm afraid it will shatter her, though, to hear that I don't blame her -- I'm afraid that the brittle skeleton of her psyche at this point is held up only be the blame she places on herself for my scars. Guess I know what my next session is going to start with, eh?
Posted by pegasus on February 16, 2004, at 13:39:41
In reply to your junk, my junk, let's throw it all out » pegasus, posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 12:07:23
Oh, Racer, that was just beautiful. Both the pain and the joy. It makes me want to remember the magical things from my mother, too.
My mom wasn't magical in the same way that you describe, but she was emotionally always very warm. I could walk up to her and hug her at any time, and she would do the same. We snuggled a lot. She always believed in me - in my abilities. And she was always proud of me. She would sew me clothes - anything I wanted she would happily make for me. Prom dresses, jeans, all kinds of complicated things. She made my wedding dress, and it was fabulous.
Last summer she came to visit, and I took her to a retreat center as a treat for a few days (there's that seeking approval thing for sure!). We had massages and learned to meditate, and did yoga, and had other people cook for us, and walked in the fields and basically relaxed. We also talked at great length. Probably for the first time in my life. She *loved* it. She said it was the best vacation she'd ever had and that I'd made her feel so special. She told me about how shy and depressed she was when she was young, and how she looks at all of her kids now (4 of us) and can't believe we're hers because we're all so smart and capable. :)
And then . . . there is the time she told me, just in the middle of a phone call, that my sister was her favorite. How she just loves my sister, and so much enjoys the time they spend together more than with anyone else. She's so creative and funny and smart. Hello! I'm right here! I just brushed it off with, "Yeah, she's really great, isn't she."
It would be great if you could write some of what you wrote here to your mom. Although, I understand about wanting to protect her, if she's fragile. I feel that way about my mom, too. I've had conversations with my therapist about things my mom has done to hurt me, and he has asked if I ever let her know. I always am shocked by the suggestion. No way! I don't want to hurt her. And he says, "Well, but her pain is about her. Maybe you could point out that what you are saying is not about her feelings. It's about yours. And part of being a mom is that you need her to be there to care about your feelings. It's not about her needing to beat herself up about it. It's about you needing to be able to talk to her." But. . . but. . . but . . . I always think that part of being a daughter is respecting your parents and not hurting them.
So, I'm obviously confused about that too. I would love to hear what your T says about all this.
Posted by Racer on February 16, 2004, at 15:05:42
In reply to Re: your junk, my junk, let's throw it all out » Racer, posted by pegasus on February 16, 2004, at 13:39:41
Right after I wrote that, I called my mother and told her basically what I said here. That I knew she felt guilty, and as though she had failed me, but that any scars I have now are mine, and my memories of her are overwhelmingly the magical ones. How much she indulged me in so many more meaningful ways than buying toys, etc. How many truly wondrous things I remember, from early childhood to my late teens, through all the really rotten years.
Her response was typical for her: "Well, that's very nice, but it doesn't do a thing to change how I feel." So, that's my beloved Mom.
When I was a kid, we didn't have much in the way of money. My parents divorced early in my life, my father was what's now known as a deadbeat dad, and my mother worked in a school library -- meaning nine months of work each year -- so money was incredibly tight to begin with. Several months before I started Kindergarten, I was hit by a car. Major injuries, major surgery, major hospital stay, months in a cast that covered my entire lower body, all followed by physical therapy that I still remember as one of the most awful and painful periods of my life. Of course, kids don't have the same kind of existencial angst that adults do, so it all seemed like just one of the things that happened in the world to me. Must have been something else to my mother, of course. We were incredibly fortunate, too. Our landlord's wife, on hearing about my accident, insisted that her husband cut out rent in half until my mother could work again. That's part of my mother's magic, too. People do react to her that way, and she's never been able to see that.
Anyway, all my toys were magical, too. My mother made them. She made the big stuffed dolls, the stick horse, the dollhouse with all the doll furniture, the doll clothes, the jigsaw puzzles, everything. She made me dresses fit for a princess, she let me choose the colors to paint my bedroom, she made me a bookcase with my name carved in freestanding letters on the top of it. She created a magical world for me to live in. The tragedy, again, is that she doesn't feel that, and won't no matter what I say.
Anyway, I'm sorry your mother said something so thoughtless to you about your sister. My aunt said something similar, once, to me, although not directed at me. She told me that she comes to visit all of us in this area primarily to see my mother. She said that, while she loves us all -- including her son, daughter-in-law, and grandsons -- she loves my mother best. At least she didn't say it to her son, right?
So, thank you for discussing this. It does feel healing, or at least relieving. Tomorrow I finally meet my new therapist, so it may be a while before all this comes up in session...
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