Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 312615

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Validation

Posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

Hi All,

I've been thinking about validation lately. Do you guys ever feel like endless black holes in terms of needing validation?

Relative to therapy, some of us need to be, hugely, validated by our therapists. I guess this can come in a variety of flavors including wanting a therapist to like you, love you, sleep with you, take care of you. The list is probably as long as some of our difficult pasts.

I've seduced so many difficult "cases" including my therapist but it doesn't seem to matter. Once I get what I'm looking for, that is the validation, I'm over it quickly.

I realized tonight in therapy, while I never ask for validation, how my thirst for it feels basically insatiable. I'm given incredibly positive feedback from the outside world on a number of fronts but no matter what it is or how much, like a drug, it doesn't last very long and I go back to being plagued intensely by self-doubt and insecurity.

Has anyone else struggled similarly along these lines? If so, while I know we're all works-in-progress, any insights anyone has gained would be really appreciated!


Rigby

 

Re: Validation » Rigby

Posted by fallsfall on February 12, 2004, at 23:31:03

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

I know exactly what you are talking about. Right now, I need to know that I have my therapist's "approval" - basically that I'm doing the "right thing" in therapy. He wants me to know that for myself, so he wouldn't say so for a couple of sessions. Finally I was able to convince him that I couldn't tolerate what he was doing and he gave me enough approval so that I can function again. When I left his office I felt like I needed him so much - I wanted to walk right back in to see him. It absolutely feels like a bottomless pit.

My therapist and I are now talking about whether I have/did have approval from my parents, and we're talking about my "rebellions" (I dropped out of college - oh, horror! - and married "beneath myself"). He finds it interesting that my rebellions were pretty significant, yet I am so dependent now. Back in the days I was rebelling, I wasn't dependent at all - I was omnipotent! I have no idea where all this will go.

If you find out how to stopper up the bottomless pit, let me know.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by DaisyM on February 12, 2004, at 23:46:28

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by fallsfall on February 12, 2004, at 23:31:03

I'm not sure I'm looking for validation because then I would have to trust someone else's assessment. And IF I'm doing something, I generally do it well. It is continuing to do things at all that I worry about. Generally I think I'm looking for someone to have a lot of confidence or hope for me...because I seem to have lost mine.

I asked me Therapist today: "this will get better, right?" He said that is his hope. This worries me...I want him to whole heartly BELIEVE that it will. I think he wants ME to believe it. And right now I'm not sure I do.

It is hard to know what we want but not know how to sustain it.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by pegasus on February 12, 2004, at 23:47:25

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

Yeah, I feel that too. I want my T to validate everything, all the time. But sometimes he doesn't, and it feels *terrible*. And even on the days where he validates validates validates, I feel like it's not enough, or I don't believe him, or etc.

I think it's because I was so thoroughly not validated as a kid. So, I've developed this view of myself as not valid. Which leads one to crave approval from everyone, at the same time that I don't believe a word of it. Sigh. There is no winning this game.

Fallsfall, I'll be interested to hear where this goes in your therapy. This is not an issue that I've tackled head on in therapy so far. But it's right there in my life all the time, so I suppose I should explore it.

- p

 

Re: Validation

Posted by DaisyM on February 12, 2004, at 23:50:33

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by pegasus on February 12, 2004, at 23:47:25

I'm not sure I'm looking for validation because then I would have to trust someone else's assessment. And IF I'm doing something, I generally do it well. It is continuing to do things at all that I worry about. Generally I think I'm looking for someone to have a lot of confidence or hope for me...because I seem to have lost mine.

I asked me Therapist today: "this will get better, right?" He said that is his hope. This worries me...I want him to whole heartly BELIEVE that it will. I think he wants ME to believe it. And right now I'm not sure I do.

It is hard to know what we want but not know how to sustain it.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by shortelise on February 13, 2004, at 1:40:47

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

Is it a bad habit?

Sometimes I wonder that. I wonder if my madness isn't a habit, just a nasty habit, and that if I were to choose to stand straight and look the truth in the eye, it would vanish.

I wonder, what's in this for me that I can't give it up, or choose not to? How do I benefit?

I have only questions.

ShortE

 

Re: Validation

Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 13, 2004, at 8:41:28

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

Rigby,

Over the past 6 months since I've been in therapy, it has been pounded into my head so much that the only approval I need is my own, that I have finally begun to believe it. I find I don't need half the validation I used to.

 

Re: Validation » fallsfall

Posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:12:16

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by fallsfall on February 12, 2004, at 23:31:03

Hi Falls,

I'm never up front about the bottomless pit of needing approval but I think I go for it in pretty intense ways like seduction. I'd never ask up front for it so that actually sounds a bit healthier! At least you're dealing with it straight up!

Rigby

> I know exactly what you are talking about. Right now, I need to know that I have my therapist's "approval" - basically that I'm doing the "right thing" in therapy. He wants me to know that for myself, so he wouldn't say so for a couple of sessions. Finally I was able to convince him that I couldn't tolerate what he was doing and he gave me enough approval so that I can function again. When I left his office I felt like I needed him so much - I wanted to walk right back in to see him. It absolutely feels like a bottomless pit.
>
> My therapist and I are now talking about whether I have/did have approval from my parents, and we're talking about my "rebellions" (I dropped out of college - oh, horror! - and married "beneath myself"). He finds it interesting that my rebellions were pretty significant, yet I am so dependent now. Back in the days I was rebelling, I wasn't dependent at all - I was omnipotent! I have no idea where all this will go.
>
> If you find out how to stopper up the bottomless pit, let me know.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:15:25

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by DaisyM on February 12, 2004, at 23:46:28

Sometimes therapy is so gamey, you know? Like clearly what you could use is for your therapist to say, "Yes. You're gonna get better." Maybe he doesn't know but you just need him to act like he does! I'm kinda that way too--my partner is great at that kind of thing--she knows I need coaching and positive thinking more than anything. The therapy game is so indirect sometimes it bugs me!

> I asked me Therapist today: "this will get better, right?" He said that is his hope. This worries me...I want him to whole heartly BELIEVE that it will. I think he wants ME to believe it. And right now I'm not sure I do.

 

Re: Validation » pegasus

Posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:22:43

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by pegasus on February 12, 2004, at 23:47:25

Do you ask directly for validation? I never ask directly for her approval. I did my usual in the beginning: roped my therapist in through seduction and messed with her head. But then I felt uncomfortable afterwards--I felt bad for her. So we chose another route with better boundaries but I feel I do not get any validation from her. But I don't ask for it. I never would. And given how much validation I get in my life it'd almost feel dumb to ask for it. But the need remains.
> Yeah, I feel that too. I want my T to validate everything, all the time. But sometimes he doesn't, and it feels *terrible*. And even on the days where he validates validates validates, I feel like it's not enough, or I don't believe him, or etc.

Yeah, the heart of it is here probably. I know, it feels like we're destined to be plagued by self-doubt, no matter how many compliments are racked up, eh???
> I think it's because I was so thoroughly not validated as a kid. So, I've developed this view of myself as not valid. Which leads one to crave approval from everyone, at the same time that I don't believe a word of it. Sigh. There is no winning this game.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:28:19

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by shortelise on February 13, 2004, at 1:40:47

This is *such* a good point. And also, if we were to just stand straight, as you say, and look truth in the eye not only would it vanish but, maybe the difficulty is, what would remain in its place? Are we just too used to being full of self-doubt? Is self-doubt such an integral part of our being that we'd feel not "ourselves" without it?

Sometimes I truly feel self-deprecation and self-doubt are huge parts of my personality and maybe are things that are part of a certain charm. So who would I be without it? I really admire people who are confident but cannot stand people who feel and say that, for example, they're beautiful or sexy, etc.--total turn-off. Would never want to be one of these people or be around them. But how do you begin to feel more validated about yourself but not come off like a bragger?


> Is it a bad habit?
>
> Sometimes I wonder that. I wonder if my madness isn't a habit, just a nasty habit, and that if I were to choose to stand straight and look the truth in the eye, it would vanish.
>
> I wonder, what's in this for me that I can't give it up, or choose not to? How do I benefit?
>
> I have only questions.
>
> ShortE

 

Re: Validation » Miss Honeychurch

Posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:32:58

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 13, 2004, at 8:41:28

Practice makes perfect, eh? Good advise. It feels as far off as the sun though for me. Maybe just *try* and *try* and *try.* I find though with, for example, my writing (I write screenplays) that it's *so* hard sometimes to see what's good objectively. Like the group I'm in will go absolutely nutso crazy good about something I've written and I have *no* clue, no ability to step outside myself--don't know what's "good"--it's quite frustrating! Right now I'm with an *amazing* collaborator who easily steps outside the work but man, when I'm inside it, I can't see a *thing* sometimes.
> Over the past 6 months since I've been in therapy, it has been pounded into my head so much that the only approval I need is my own, that I have finally begun to believe it. I find I don't need half the validation I used to.

 

Re: Validation » Rigby

Posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 11:39:40

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:28:19

> This is *such* a good point. And also, if we were to just stand straight, as you say, and look truth in the eye not only would it vanish but, maybe the difficulty is, what would remain in its place? Are we just too used to being full of self-doubt? Is self-doubt such an integral part of our being that we'd feel not "ourselves" without it?
>
I felt that if my therapist did not give me the approval that I needed that I couldn't exist. It wasn't so much that I would die (or kill myself) - it was more like I would disappear or disintegrate. I wouldn't "be". I have read that this kind of feeling indicates a lack of "self".

 

Re: Validation » Rigby

Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

I do need validation, but I'm not sure I need the same sort. I think I'm pretty aware of what I do well and what I do not so well and what I do dreadfully. And I don't need validation about myself or my capabilities or strengths so much.

Where I *do* need tons of validation is with him, whether I can trust him, whether he is who I think he is and our relationship is what I think it is, whether he actually cares or just likes my money, whether he sighs when he sees my name in his appointment book. What's "real" and what's my projection onto him of what I need him to be. And if I'm building something that I really rely upon on the basis of nothing more than fantasy.

He was fussing at me yesterday about it. Saying that I was projecting my fears onto him. That he hadn't done anything to make me feel that he was anything other than what I've thought him to be or our relationship is anything other than what I thought it was.

I told him that I was afraid that he, and the relationship between us, was all on my side and wasn't based in reality. And he told me he couldn't reassure me because he didn't know what I thought our relationship was, or what I thought he was. Immensely frustrating, as I didn't know what he wanted, and he refused to ask. He said I needed to tell him if I wanted to know. It felt like a huge game of withholding and hide and seek, and I'm guessing it felt the same thing on his side. That I was asking for something from him without making clear what it was.

So I asked the standard questions. That I thought he was at least mildly fond of me. (He said yes). That I thought he would care if something bad happened to me (He said yes). That he didn't sigh when he saw his name in the appt book (he laughed). That he would care if I quit coming. He told me that that would of course be my choice. I fussed at him that that wasn't what I asked. And he said yes, he would care, but that as a therapist it was part of his life that it was the client's choice. I asked if he would just miss the income stream, and he laughed and said no.

I told him I knew he had problems with dependent women and was a bit put off by that in me. He didn't comment. And that I thought he was slightly repulsed by my grooming and odd appearance. And he got mad and said of course not, why would I say that. And I reminded him of the time he said something like that. And he said he meant other people might accept me better, not that it was something that repulsed him.

He fussed all along that he had already told me these things. And I guess that's true. But how do you *know* what's real? It's not like he would tell me that he couldn't stand me. Sigh.

And somehow I think I didn't ask the questions that I really had in mind, because I don't know what they were. And I'm a bit angry with him for not helping me figure them out.

I know he wants me to take responsibility, and probably doesn't want me to need validation or caring or reassurance from him.

And maybe he's right. But......

I feel so needy. And not righteously needy like an infant. But greedily needy. Like I'm trying to suck something from him.

Sigh.

 

Re: Validation » Dinah

Posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 12:29:00

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23

>It's not like he would tell me that he couldn't stand me. Sigh.

Of course he wouldn't tell you that he couldn't stand you. That would be a lie, and he doesn't lie to you.

I'm impressed you asked all those questions and I think he answered them admirably.

Do you feel a little more secure now?

 

Re: Validation » fallsfall

Posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 13:06:32

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 11:39:40

>I felt that if my therapist did not give me the approval that I needed that I couldn't exist. It wasn't so much that I would die (or kill myself) - it was more like I would disappear or disintegrate. I wouldn't "be". I have read that this kind of feeling indicates a lack of "self".
>

Talk about striking a chord! The need is so deep within isn't it? What I learned from therapy was 'Yes you exist, yes you matter, yes you feelings matter, no you are not alone in an indifferent dangerous universe'.

And that goes for everybody here!

(Credit cards accepted)

 

Re: Validation » Dinah

Posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 14:44:02

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23

>
> And somehow I think I didn't ask the questions that I really had in mind, because I don't know what they were.

I might be getting this wrong, but is it like 'if I could only find the right question and get the right answer then things will be OK?' (Or if I can read the right book, get the right dx...?) But sometimes I wonder whether the words exist, and that things happen inside, and during therapy, that our language just doesn't have the words and ideas to describe. Also wonder whether the struggling itself works in a way that that we don't understand. So that there's a result from your and your therapist's frustrating efforts even if it doesn't feel like it.

> I know he wants me to take responsibility, and probably doesn't want me to need validation or caring or reassurance from him.
> >
> I feel so needy. And not righteously needy like an infant. But greedily needy. Like I'm trying to suck something from him.
>
I used to sometimes think I was like a vampire.
It might have been Jung (not exactly my greatest idol, but he had some good ideas), who said that our problems are rarely 'solved', but we manage to grow out of them eventually.

Hope this waffling on is of some use.

Take care of yourself this weekend.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:09

In reply to Re: Validation » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on February 13, 2004, at 12:29:00

>
> Do you feel a little more secure now?
>

Of *course* not!!! :)

Actually maybe yes. Today was a better session, and having a good session may be more validating than anything he can actually say. It was the sort that puts you through the wringer and terrifies you, yet you feel like you're in a safe place anyway. Go figure.

It started out the way it had been yesterday. I wailed "This is just like yesterday. You're reminding me of Dr. Bob!!!". He laughed, admitted that we had probably seen too much of each other this week (which I had thought was the problem), then realized that probably sounded rude and added something about it being an intense week. Then he started listening and I started describing better my thinking processes and why I was asking what I was asking, and when he understood why he quit being frustrated. That's what I like best about my therapist. He's almost always ready to take a deep breath and start over from scratch. (beaming smile)

 

Re: Above for Fallsfall (nm)

Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:32

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 17:58:09

 

Re: Validation » Crooked Heart

Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55

In reply to Re: Validation » Dinah, posted by Crooked Heart on February 13, 2004, at 14:44:02

> >
> > And somehow I think I didn't ask the questions that I really had in mind, because I don't know what they were.
>
> I might be getting this wrong, but is it like 'if I could only find the right question and get the right answer then things will be OK?' (Or if I can read the right book, get the right dx...?)

LOL. You have me pegged there! That sounds so much like me. :) But getting the right answers, reading the right books, and finding the right diagnosis *does* help. Even if it doesn't make it all better. Because it's the not understanding that makes things so scary for me.

But in this case it might have been as much frustration at my inability to make myself clear as anything. I told him today that my son is too young to ask him why he did something and get a coherent answer. And that it was way more productive to say, "Well, when I was little, sometimes I did that and the reason was xxxx, but I've heard other people say they do it because yyyy. But I suppose the reason could also be zzzzz. Do any of these sound right?" And he will say yes or no and maybe tell us a bit more. I told him that sometimes I needed him to do that because I didn't have the right words. And he told me to tell him that if I needed to. But remembering that under stress when I'm trying to please him by coming up with an answer is tough. Sigh. At least I feel understood today.

Validation! :)

> > I feel so needy. And not righteously needy like an infant. But greedily needy. Like I'm trying to suck something from him.
> >
> I used to sometimes think I was like a vampire.

I think of myself more as a particularly tenacious leech. :)

> It might have been Jung (not exactly my greatest idol, but he had some good ideas), who said that our problems are rarely 'solved', but we manage to grow out of them eventually.

Well, I'd better get started growing!! I haven't that many years left!

>
> Hope this waffling on is of some use.

Always. :)
>
> Take care of yourself this weekend.

You too.

 

Re: Validation » Dinah

Posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 20:58:13

In reply to Re: Validation » Rigby, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 11:54:23

I could have written this - except maybe the appearance part because I would never ask about that part. Never! (I don't want to know, really).

But the rest - totally. Especially about the greedy needy part.

And he would tell me also it was a projection. That is was coming from an old place. But I have a sense that THIS is one of the key pieces to helping me. Making me BELIEVE that he won't fail me. That people can help me, I don't have to do it all myself.

I'm trying to believe this really.

 

Re: Validation

Posted by DaisyM on February 13, 2004, at 21:07:07

In reply to Re: Validation » Crooked Heart, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55

>>>And that it was way more productive to say, "Well, when I was little, sometimes I did that and the reason was xxxx, but I've heard other people say they do it because yyyy. But I suppose the reason could also be zzzzz. Do any of these sound right?" And he will say yes or no and maybe tell us a bit more. I told him that sometimes I needed him to do that because I didn't have the right words...


<<<EXACTLY. My Therapist does this sometimes and other times he waits for me. I think he doesn't want to plant ideas but sometimes I have none.

Today he told me that he should remember to spend sometime going over the process again so I can see that what I am feeling is totally normal, not that it isn't unique to me. He said, "I know understanding the process and what might happen is important to you. We have to feed your intellect while holding your feelings." Yes. Yes!! It took 1/2 hour of a meltdown on the phone but I finally, finally, felt like I could make it through the weekend. And he just kept talking until I could let him go. So yes, sometimes they get it totally right. But Monday still seems pretty far away.
:(

 

Re: Validation

Posted by shortelise on February 14, 2004, at 1:34:20

In reply to Re: Validation, posted by Rigby on February 13, 2004, at 10:28:19

Indeed, it's what would remain there scares the pee out of me.
What if there is nothing? My neurosis is pretty interesting, except when it makes me cry for days on end. What if it's the only interesting thing about me? What if I am a boring dolt without it?
ShortE

> This is *such* a good point. And also, if we were to just stand straight, as you say, and look truth in the eye not only would it vanish but, maybe the difficulty is, what would remain in its place? Are we just too used to being full of self-doubt? Is self-doubt such an integral part of our being that we'd feel not "ourselves" without it?
>
> Sometimes I truly feel self-deprecation and self-doubt are huge parts of my personality and maybe are things that are part of a certain charm. So who would I be without it? I really admire people who are confident but cannot stand people who feel and say that, for example, they're beautiful or sexy, etc.--total turn-off. Would never want to be one of these people or be around them. But how do you begin to feel more validated about yourself but not come off like a bragger?
>
>
> > Is it a bad habit?
> >
> > Sometimes I wonder that. I wonder if my madness isn't a habit, just a nasty habit, and that if I were to choose to stand straight and look the truth in the eye, it would vanish.
> >
> > I wonder, what's in this for me that I can't give it up, or choose not to? How do I benefit?
> >
> > I have only questions.
> >
> > ShortE
>
>

 

Re: Validation

Posted by Elle2021 on February 14, 2004, at 2:18:44

In reply to Validation, posted by Rigby on February 12, 2004, at 21:05:26

>Do you guys ever feel like endless black holes in terms of needing validation?

Yes. Especially concerning my professors. I have actually taken to tayloring my papers to their likes and dislikes in an effort to up my chances for validation (pathetic isn't it?). I have to give myself a little credit though, because if it's something I disagree with I say so, but if I don't have an opinion, then... It works actually. But still, no matter how much validation I recieve, I have a huge craving for more. It's a craving that can't be satisfied. I guess I'm just really insecure that way. Maybe someday I won't need to be told I'm intelligent or pretty, I'll just know I'm good enough. That would be nice.
Elle

 

Re: Validation » Dinah

Posted by Crooked Heart on February 14, 2004, at 5:27:07

In reply to Re: Validation » Crooked Heart, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2004, at 18:08:55

Maybe I'm beginning to get it to. I loved what you described about talking to your son. I guess you mean about trying to help someone get a handle on something when they don't know what it is and neither do you? Have I got that right?


Go forward in thread:


Show another thread

URL of post in thread:


Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ


[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.