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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
hi all,
i have been upset for weeks now (college winter break) over the last time i saw my therapist. it had been an intense session, i had a lot of worries about going home (first xmas w/out my dad), and so on my way out i asked her for a hug. she didn't even think about it and said, 'liz, i can't do that, we would have to talk about it, for someone like you, w/your history, it's just not simple.' and it killed me, it felt like i was being stabbed. and i hate that i am that attached.
i was just surprised, as when i came back from a long break a couple months ago, i asked if i could give her a hug and she responded, 'of course!' like i didn't even need to ask. so i was just shocked and just lost it. it has been brewing in my mind.
do people hug their therapists, regularly or not? have you talked about it in therapy? and why would my therapist give two completely different answers?? it hurt so much.
confused. thanks for any input.
liz
Posted by DaisyM on January 8, 2004, at 23:21:43
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
Liz,
I'm sorry you are hurting. It sounds like that hug represented many things to you...
Most Therapist do not hug anymore...too many law suits. Plus, they can be misunderstood so easily...which is why she probably said you would need to talk about it and there wasn't time. Imagine - a long hug, a tight hug, a hug with a small rub on the back - any of these could lead you to believe the wrong thing. Try to see it as her protecting you and your relationship with her.
When you go back,can you talk about how you are feeling? I bet you miss her. And, the first Holiday without your dad is rough...I'm sorry for you. I hope you were able to call up sweet memories about him.
Hang in there. Vacation is almost over.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 8, 2004, at 23:29:27
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
I don't understand why she would give two different answers like that. Maybe that is something you should take up with her at your next session. I'm sorry she didn't hug you. I will. (((liz)))
My therapist never hugs me. I've had handshakes before and touches on the back as well as the good old "shoulder pat" but never a hug. He mentioned once, when I told him how very unsupportive he is, that he has had the urge to hug me on several occassions, but that would be crossing boundaries. And I understand completely, though it would be nice to get a hug :(
I'd ask her why she refused to hug you. I'm sure it will lead to a good discussion. Maybe she's trying to reinforce boundaries?
Good luck!
Posted by crushedout on January 9, 2004, at 1:48:56
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
Ouch. That would hurt me so much, too (which is why I've never asked). It's weird that she'd done it once before, though. That's confusing. What do you think might have been different about this time?I think Daisy's right that you should try to see it as her protecting you and the therapeutic relationship, as I'm sure that's what she was doing, but that doesn't stop it from hurting like h*ll.
Posted by EmmyS on January 9, 2004, at 6:14:26
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by crushedout on January 9, 2004, at 1:48:56
I wonder if the first hug was spontaneous - without thinking. Then she thought about it later, or talked to her supervisor, and decided it wasn't such a good idea. Maybe she is a natural hugger, but decided it was a boundary breaker? She should have taken a few extra minutes to explain the change, expecially considering what a big loss you've been just been through. Emmy
Posted by crushedout on January 9, 2004, at 6:26:48
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by EmmyS on January 9, 2004, at 6:14:26
> She should have taken a few extra minutes to explain the change, expecially considering what a big loss you've been just been through. Emmy
I totally agree.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 9, 2004, at 8:38:31
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by crushedout on January 9, 2004, at 6:26:48
All I get are handshakes from mine. He explained that hugging (especially with female clients) is a slippery slope.
I want to hug him every session though. I even dream about it.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2004, at 9:29:30
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
Probably something happened, she attended a conference or something totally unrelated to you, and learned that hugging isn't practiced by most therapists. By all means talk to her about it next time and tell her how hurt you were, and how confused because of the other time.
Are you allowed to call her between sessions? Instead of having to obsess about it till the next one?
I'm not sure if my therapist would hug me or not. I wouldn't want him to. I almost suspect he doesn't have a problem with it. He said he used to hug all the time, but doesn't do it much any more because of the legal ramifications. He shakes my hand when I ask him to.
Posted by Speaker on January 9, 2004, at 9:36:41
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2004, at 9:29:30
My old T of eight years offered a hug at the end of every session. Would you like a hug? It was a great way to leave...even when I was mad I knew our relationship was ok. I am so sorry for the mixed message your T left you...it is soooooooo wrong! I would call and not wait a stew alone. This is her problem not yours...there is nothing wrong with wanting a hug and if she allowed it before I can see where you were coming from. If she has a policy not to hug she should have covered it. When and if the T makes a mistake they should be professional enough to cover it with the patient.
Posted by Penny on January 9, 2004, at 10:24:13
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
I had been seeing my former T for over a year before I hugged her the first time. It had been a particularly difficult session and at the end I asked her if I could hug her and she said that was fine with her. Then she initiated a hug (that I was fine with) before her maternity leave, which was kind of awkward due to the BABY in her tummy. :-) Then we hugged one more time at the end of my last session with her. sigh.
I haven't hugged my current T - I've been seeing her a year this month. Have thought about asking, and I somehow don't think she'd have a problem with it, but just haven't. I'd love to hug my pdoc, who I've been seeing for 2 years or so now, but the only thing I've done is shaken his hand. Which is fine.
But there's never been any allusion of sexual tension or anything between me and either of my Ts or my pdoc. Is that an issue with your feelings toward your T?
I tend to agree with Dinah that your T probably went to a conference or something where she was told that hugging isn't as acceptable, so she decided against it. But I suspect she doesn't realize how it made you feel either. How long have you been seeing her? Have you seen her since this happened?
Sorry you are hurting. It sucks.
P
Posted by naiad on January 9, 2004, at 13:14:21
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't h » metalflipflop, posted by Penny on January 9, 2004, at 10:24:13
I agree with those who said she should have given you some sort of explanation. Is it possible that you have covered some topics which have changed her mind about hugs? Just a guess...it's more likely that she has simply changed her policy.
I also fantasize a lot about hugs but know I will never ask and if I did, would be turned down. I can feel the heart sadness that would follow that rejection. I am so sorry that you are hurting.
Posted by Medusa on January 10, 2004, at 7:28:45
In reply to needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 8, 2004, at 23:02:06
Sorry this happened, Liz. Your therapist being inconsistent is REALLY weird!
I've had the opposite experience - therapists hugging me without permission, when I did NOT want that or feel it appropriate.
Posted by cubic_me on January 10, 2004, at 8:30:06
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by Medusa on January 10, 2004, at 7:28:45
I've never even touched my therapist. I borrowed her pencil once, thats as close as I've got!
I agree that you should have got a short explanations. This stuff is confusing, even if it hasnt even come up in sessions.
Posted by metalflipflop on January 10, 2004, at 20:12:31
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by cubic_me on January 10, 2004, at 8:30:06
thank you guys so much for such supportive responses! i did call her, and she didn't want to get into any sort of discussion over the phone. i understand, but frustrating. i wrote her a letter about it, and on the phone she said she wasn't going to read it until she saw me again. sigh. sort of missed the point entirely; i wanted to feel less alone, that she at least knew something of what was going on with me. it has made me question our relationship so much, it feels so damaged now. i don't know whether to trust or not, which is something that took nearly a year to begin with! such a slow process, and so thoughtlessly wrecked. i am seeing her on monday and i am SO relieved, even though i just feeling like screaming and cursing at her.
thanks so much,
liz
Posted by Dinah on January 10, 2004, at 20:45:11
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 10, 2004, at 20:12:31
I'm sorry. :( They all seem to have different phone rules, which makes it confusing. Mine would have given me a short reassurance and then tell me we'd talk about it more next time. But only one more day and a little bit.
Posted by metalflipflop on January 12, 2004, at 19:46:27
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by Dinah on January 10, 2004, at 20:45:11
the beginnings of relief, so long overdue...
i finally saw my therapist this morning, and i let it all out about how awful all this has been. it felt good to yell and cry but man, it still hurts. i told her she has a lot of explaining to do. she completely admitted that she was wrong in how she responded to me, that it would have been better to say okay and talk about it the next time. i think she finally gets it now, as before she wouldn't read the letters (2) i sent her and wouldn't listen on the phone. that really pissed me off too. sigh. it feels like this has set me back so much on the trust issue. i don't really know how to fix it, but she says that's her job anyway and not to worry. it helped to hear that.
i just wish all this time had not elapsed, all this klonopin had not gone down my throat, and my body had not been so stressed by all the obsessing in my mind.
getting really attached to a therapist is a treacherous thing, even one whom i think is a really great person. i guess we all live and learn, and that's the take-home message.
doing better now,
liz
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2004, at 20:03:46
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 12, 2004, at 19:46:27
I'm glad you're feeling better. And I'm glad she admitted she could have done a better job. Somehow that always makes me feel better about a therapist.
I wish it didn't have to hurt too.
Posted by Speaker on January 13, 2004, at 9:38:55
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2004, at 20:03:46
I'm glad she took the responsibility and I hope you can move forward on you again. It always makes me mad when I pay for therapy when the problem is the therapy :). Did she explain why one time a hug and a no another time? Remember to take care of YOU!
Posted by naiad on January 13, 2004, at 14:16:32
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 12, 2004, at 19:46:27
The thing I learned from your experience is that it is okay to get mad at your therapist! Mine says that when I come back to him with a complaint about something that he has done or said in a previous session, it feels a little like "I got you!" and his frustration is that I didn't express my feelings at the time of the offense. But, like you, sometimes I have to reflect on what happened and sort it out. Then I get mad.
I'm glad that you are feeling better and that your therapist understands that she screwed up!
Posted by metalflipflop on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:24
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by naiad on January 13, 2004, at 14:16:32
hello all,
well, i thought things were finally getting okay--i told my therapist why i was hurt so much, she finally read my letters to her, she admitted she was wrong. i felt better, she said she was going to try her best to remedy the situation.
i saw her today again though (can you tell i've been really upset?), and she said she had given it a lot of thought and realized that she had been very inconsistent with me. this is true. she said that in light of that, these are the new rules: no phone calls unless i am going to hurt myself or need to schedule sooner, no hugs til i leave her for good, i.e. when i will never see her again.
i was floored. i feel horrible again. this is never how it's been with her, i've been able to call when i'm really upset but not self-destructive (i very, very rarely take things out on myself), the hug was fine at first. she said this will take care of the inconsistency, but i just can't handle it. changing the rules in the middle of the game? after an entire year? i feel like my commitment to therapy is hanging by a thread, and today she came at me with scissors. i had such hope that she was going to be able to reassure me about this, and now, honestly, very deeply, i don't want to do it anymore.
i really am not someone who pushes boundaries, i take that responsibility very seriously, and she agreed that i have never been inappropriate in how i let myself lean on her.
i am heartbroken. i am so attached to her, but this was such a bad time for her to retreat behind the therapist line. i wish she could be flexible, if only through this rough time, but she says that's just not how she works. all this is news to me. i don't understand how things can change so much. i feel punished for being honest and upset as i really am.
i am seeing her tomorrow again (i think she's afraid any longer and i won't come back), and with things how they are it feels like it will be my last session. i don't know what else to say to her, that i haven't already, that would convey how wrong this feels and how much my gut is telling me it shouldn't be this way.
i have tried so much already.
=/
liz
Posted by antigua on January 13, 2004, at 16:37:49
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:24
I am so very sorry that you are feeling so badly. I felt totally betrayed when a therapist I had been working w/for several months (not even a whole year!) just turned on me one day and told me that he was referring me out--no more sessions, no explanation except for that he couldn't help me anymore (never explained the change, he had been telling me how he was going to see me through all this, blah, blah, and there were never ANY boundary crossings that I was aware of). End of discussion, hit the road and don't come back.
I was so hurt I didn't know what to do. I felt so betrayed that I had shared my secrets/feelings w/this person and he had stomped all over them.
I'm still not really over it. I went back to my regular T and she was wonderful helping me through it. Once I got over being hurt, I don't think I was ever so mad in my life.
If you can, tell her everything tomorrow; try to get it all out. It very well may be your last session w/her but perhaps you'll feel better if you can let her know how much she has hurt you.
I am really, really sorry you have had to go through this,
antigua
Posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 16:53:01
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:24
Wow, Liz, that is really odd. Did you ask her how that was supposed to fix things? Maybe she thinks that her inconsistency is the only problem, when clearly that's not what's making you feel so bad.I don't know what to tell you. I truly feel for your heartbrokenness (I've been heartbroken over my T also, although her behavior has been more comprehensible to me than yours' seems to have been to you). I wouldn't blame you for dumping her, but don't do anything rash, or for the wrong reasons. I mean, try to talk it out calmly with her, get her to explain how she thinks she's helping you. Especially if you haven't been a client that pushes the bourndaries, I don't think being overly rigid with you at this point is the least bit helpful to your relationship with her. She seems very confused.
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 17:18:53
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:24
> she said that in light of that, these are the new rules: no phone calls unless i am going to hurt myself or need to schedule sooner, no hugs til i leave her for good, i.e. when i will never see her again.
I'm sorry Liz. What an awful thing to have happen. Can you ask for a consultation to try to mediate through this (if you think it's worth it?)
But the no phone calls unless you're going to hurt yourself seems like a very foolish rule. Tell her to read Marsha Linehan "Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder". It doesn't matter whether you're borderline or not. It gives a good explanation of sensible boundaries.
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 17:20:22
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt » metalflipflop, posted by antigua on January 13, 2004, at 16:37:49
Again, an awful experience. I think I'll have to yell at my therapist about it. I always get mad at him about what other people's therapists do.
I'm glad your regular therapist was there for you.
Posted by Catmom on January 13, 2004, at 22:49:53
In reply to Re: needing a hug being refused, wish it didn't hurt, posted by metalflipflop on January 13, 2004, at 15:58:24
Liz, I really really feel for you. I know how devastating things can be if you are not on the same page with your therapist. Like you, I don't abuse the telephone with my therapist (I have called her about a couple of issues and she spoke with me at reasonable length--when I next saw her I offered to pay her for her telephone time, but she declined graciously). I have also sent her a few written communications: 5 in the past year; none very lengthy. She has acknowledged all of them within the confines of the session.
She has been extremely consistent in the 28 months I have seen her; I had only ONE session in which she admitted that she had been unable to sleep the previous night because I questioned her about unusual "fidgetiness" on her part.
To stay or to leave? My therapist is a "keeper" (and believe me, I've known a couple of really bad doozies).
There's a theory I've read about: the therapeutic "frame": the "frame" is a largely predictable "way of being" that you can expect from your T. The "frame" should not be changed or violated at all without a reasonable, comprehensible explanation.
First, the hug was a part of your frame and now it's not. Were phone calls and letters ever a part of the frame? I think that we can benefit most from the transference, and the entire therapy process, if the frame remains consistent and predictable.
Changing therapists or terminating therapy is a huge move; sometimes it is a wise move. A lot depends on your community and its resources: are there a lot of available therapists, or only a small number?
I am doing quite well in general but I acknowledge that so much of my improvement comes from the consistency my therpist has displayed and from my knowing what to expect.
I am so sorry that you feel hurt.
Sending you a virtual {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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