Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 297437

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Re: Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do. » Dinah

Posted by judy1 on January 7, 2004, at 10:05:26

In reply to Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:13:46

I'm sorry you're in this pattern Dinah, I know it well. We start thinking there's something wrong with us, everybody is angry, what's the point? sometimes I think it's OCD, the obsessing and pushing so that even if the person is not angry at first, we can make them feel that way. sometimes other people have reasons to be angry (that have nothing to do with us) but we being the over-sensitive beings that we are, internalize it and make it all about us. you are a warm, caring person and that did not change overnight- your thinking patterns can change overnight, but the essential 'you' cannot. I'm glad you are feeling more rational today, why not think of reasons why these people in your life (boss, spouse, therp) may have reasons to be upset that have nothing to do with you- i.e.- cut yourself some slack.
take care, judy

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah

Posted by Karen_kay on January 7, 2004, at 11:28:49

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

Dinah,

This sounds to me like a simple case of miscommunication. That is all. Your therapist should have handled it better. I'm sorry he didn't. We all make mistakes at times. And it sounds like your therapist didn't handle himself well in this situation. There was a lack of communication and your therapist blew it out of proportion. That's a shame.

The fact that he said you are annoying at times is sad. But I'm proud of you for having the courage to ask him. I'd never be able to ask my therapist that. I'm afraid that he would in fact say "Yes Karen, you are very annoying." I'm sorry that he said that to you.
But remember he is human. Is it possible he said it out of anger. He was upset with you at the time and that anger could have been clouding his judgement. I'm sure he couldn't find you overly annoying, he has after all been your therapist for quite a while. If he found you too be very annoying, do you think that he would continue to be your therapist for so long?

You've had a rough couple of days. And that also clouds your judgement. When someone upsets you, you start to see the negative in everything about yourself. Your husband loves you for the wonderful person you are. And your son loves his beautiful mother, and needs her to be there for him. You don't want to run away. You want to say there and heal. Not only for yourself, but also for your wonderful family and lovely dogs. Hang in there girl. We love you on the boards and I can tell you from my personal experience I have NEVER EVER once found you to be the slightest bit annoying!!! I promise!!!


 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time

Posted by pegasus on January 7, 2004, at 13:32:17

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

I agree so much with what everyone else is saying. Dinah, you are wonderfully helpful and kind, from what I've seen here. And anyway everyone has their annoying moments. And your T was probably speaking (slightly inappropriately) out of frustration about something that he was misunderstanding anyway. My therapist has mentioned being annoyed at me (although always in a specific context - e.g., "I was annoyed when you did that."). It sucks, even though I don't think I generally am an annoying person. And, hell, he annoys me all the time. And it's ok. Annoying people and being annoyed by them is part of life, and a good relationship can contain those moments, as well as the times when you just connect like legos.

Which is not to trivialize how much it sucks when someone really important to you is annoyed or angry. Especially when he tells you about it. For me, that's the biggest SI trigger, and it sounds like you're having trouble in that arena as well. Please try to keep yourself safe, maybe by reading all of these posts about how much everyone here disagrees with your therapist. I love the idea of you telling him that it was really hard to hear him say that you were annoying. Maybe this will lead to some productive therapy, or relationship building anyway. I hope. I'll be thinking about you today.

-p

 

I echo the others, you're very kind and caring (nm)

Posted by gardenergirl on January 7, 2004, at 15:09:08

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by pegasus on January 7, 2004, at 13:32:17

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me Dinah

Posted by antigua on January 7, 2004, at 16:06:41

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

Dinah, please listen to all these supportive messages. Many, many people care about you and please know how helpful you have been to everyone on this board. You are very much appreciated.
antigua

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 16:36:39

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me Dinah, posted by antigua on January 7, 2004, at 16:06:41

Thanks again everyone. I'm feeling a bit more my grownup self. I took some Klonopin, slept a lot, and even went in to work for a bit, as my presence there is going to be required at least a little bit every day for the next few months. I unpacked what I had packed. I suppose I can always decide to run away later.

I called my therapist. He said I take things too seriously. Sometimes he seems to realize how really important he is to me, but times like this he seems to totally miss it. He said I wasn't anywhere near his most annoying client. And that I wasn't annoying all the time, just some of the time. And that everything would be ok. But it sounded awfully hollow today. Perhaps because I was being annoying by asking? Sigh. (wry smile)

I have this odd desire to cancel Friday, or to go in and say nothing, so that I won't chance being annoying. But I suppose that *would* be annoying. It's a no win situation.

I know that he's trying to teach me that he can be angry and still care about me. But somehow "annoying" is different. And he didn't say my behavior was annoying sometimes, but that I was. And I suppose I am. I'm a dependent little creature with him, and I suspect he doesn't like pathetic dependent creatures.

Oh well. I didn't cut. I didn't run away, though I'm reserving the option.

And if he wants me to take responsibility for my EMDR therapy, he should be pleased with me (but won't be). Since the person he recommended all but told me she didn't feel qualified to work with me, I called two level II certified EMDR therapists and have already made an appointment with one. I told her pretty much what he wanted me to tell her, although in a way I felt comfortable expressing it. So he won't need to talk to her at all unless something comes up during therapy that she feels he needs to know. So there. I took complete responsibility.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your support when I was feeling so scared and lost. I'm doing ok now - still fragile but better than before. At least until the wee early hours of the morning when the monsters come out to play.

((((Babblers))))

P.S. He did say something interesting Tuesday that I intend to ask about Friday, although chances are he won't elaborate. I was afraid something I was doing with the EMDR therapist would cause her to shy away from taking me as a client. He said there *were* red flags in preliminary calls, but that wasn't one of them. But now I want to know what he thinks they are so that I don't make those mistakes in calling mental health professionals.

 

So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 17:28:15

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 16:36:39

You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!

Seriously, good for you for taking this opportunity to take charge and get something done. I think you heard "hollow" because you had to ask...I'm sure he meant what he said.

Don't go in on Friday and not talk. Tell him what you have accomplished by this surprise catalyst. And ask about those red flags. I bet we all could learn from that.

Now, take a breath and relax. You deserve to. Have you noticed how many seats are now occupied on the babble therapy roller-coaster? I think I want off!

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

In reply to So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 17:28:15

> You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!
>
I hate those. :) And I'm not sure I'm quite there yet. I still feel surprisingly tearful. Maybe therapy sophisticate me wants more from my therapist than he can actually give. Like liking me, or enjoying his sessions with me.

> Seriously, good for you for taking this opportunity to take charge and get something done. I think you heard "hollow" because you had to ask...I'm sure he meant what he said.

He rarely lies, I guess. And when he does he does it badly. I suppose he meant what he said, as far as it goes. What he didn't say would be what I wouldn't want to know.
>
> Don't go in on Friday and not talk. Tell him what you have accomplished by this surprise catalyst. And ask about those red flags. I bet we all could learn from that.
>
Yes, I'll make sure to post the red flags, if he's willing to divulge those trade secrets.

> Now, take a breath and relax. You deserve to. Have you noticed how many seats are now occupied on the babble therapy roller-coaster? I think I want off!

I know I do. What happened to my safe space?

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah

Posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 18:55:36

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

> > You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!
> >
> I hate those. :) And I'm not sure I'm quite there yet. I still feel surprisingly tearful. Maybe therapy sophisticate me wants more from my therapist than he can actually give. Like liking me, or enjoying his sessions with me.

Dinah, I swear I posted this already but I can't find it. Did you ever consider just asking him how he feels about you-- or more specificially, if he likes you? I suspect you'd be pleasantly surprised by the answer. Having him tell you the whole picture of his feelings might help put comments like this annoying one into perspective.

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time

Posted by LostGirl on January 7, 2004, at 19:06:49

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah, posted by Poet on January 7, 2004, at 9:05:49

From what I've read about counter-transference, therapists are supposed to tune in to how clients make them feel, not just to monitor themselves, but because it informs them. If a client makes them feel a certain way - bored, angry, aroused, whatever, the client is probably having the same affect on other people. That is something a skilled therapist can use in a helpful way, with tact, and carefully chosen words, and feedback that directs the person to their actions and the reactions it causes. But something like agreeing he finds you annoying is to me in no way helpful, tactful or professional. That is hurtful and destructive. The new Yalom book (I can't think of the name, if you want it I'll look for it) talks a lot about this and how he has used what feelings people elicit in him to give helpful feedback in a kind way.

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah, posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 18:55:36

We've had the discussion a few times. Sometimes directly, more often indirectly. He says he cares about me, that he likes me, that he wants what's best for me. That he's fond of me if only for all the years we've put in together. That he wouldn't have been my therapist for all those years if he disliked me. But it's all that therapist stuff that all therapists say, and so I distrust it. I mean, he could hardly answer that he can't stand to see me and only does it because I pay more than any of his other clients.

Once when I talked about my preferred method of suicide, he winced. I think that was the most genuine thing he ever did/said. I was really touched. I had rather thought he would stand over my body, fold his arms, and say "I'm sorry she made that choice" before walking off. I actually promised him not to kill myself without giving him a chance to help first, I was so touched. I also told him not to tell me if the wince was actually a leg cramp or something.

He's also told me a few genuine things when he was tired and stressed. Things that he probably shouldn't have told me. About how he has trouble with dependent women. About how that's his problem, not mine. Now that was one statement about his feelings that sounded believable. :) I told him he was pretty much in the wrong profession.

I don't know. Sometimes he does things that make it seem as if he does care. Like scheduling me for the mornings of his flight if he's leaving late enough to do it. Things like that. Or laughing at me. When he laughs at the annoying things I do, it feels like he likes me ok.

But he does get angry with me an awful lot. Do most therapists get angry that often? Or show it anyway?

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » LostGirl

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:37:25

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by LostGirl on January 7, 2004, at 19:06:49

I guess I shouldn't ask questions I don't want to know the answer to. I was looking for reassurance, not honesty! He does try really hard to be honest with me though, and I suppose I should appreciate that. Maybe another time...

I love reading Yalom! Wouldn't you love to have him as a therapist (at least if he actually is as he portrays himself?).

I'm not sure how useful it would be for my therapist to use his countertransference reactions to see how I interact with the world. I am pretty much a whole different person in therapy. I agree with the idea in concept, but honestly, you wouldn't recognize the therapy client me. No one would. I guess that's bad in a way because I can't use the relationship as a microcosm of my other relationships. Maybe the first five years or so we could/did.

 

Therapy U! » Dinah

Posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 19:49:53

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » LostGirl, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:37:25

<<<but honestly, you wouldn't recognize the therapy client me

>>>Really! I'm so relieved. I thought it was just me. I sometimes wonder if my therapist saw me at work if he would feel like I've been putting him on. It is actually the other way around, pretending to feel competent, etc. when you want to stay home under the covers. I tell him of course, but the difference is really huge.

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 19:57:32

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

>
> He's also told me a few genuine things when he was tired and stressed. Things that he probably shouldn't have told me. About how he has trouble with dependent women. About how that's his problem, not mine. Now that was one statement about his feelings that sounded believable. :) I told him he was pretty much in the wrong profession.

Dinah, you crack me up. I'd say this exchange is even more evidence he likes you. Here you are, showing your dependent side, which is something he has an issue with, yet he still likes you. Call me pollyanna but I don't think he'd say he liked you if he didn't.

>
> But he does get angry with me an awful lot. Do most therapists get angry that often? Or show it anyway?

I don't know. Mine doesn't get angry very much, but I don't think I get into so much attachment with her as you do with yours. I picture you being pretty clear with yours about what you need and want from him, and trying your darndest to get it from him. You're bound to bring up more of the gamut of emotions from him than a client who keeps more of a distance. I admire you for engaging with him enough to get him angry. I'll bet you're working out stuff you need to work out, and getting your therapy dollar's worth.

 

therapists who get angry.. » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 20:47:09

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

Hi Dinah! I haven't been posting for a while, as I got so involved in my own therapy, and didn't know what to post about all the stuff that was happening there! But I have been following what others have been posting every few days, and always follow your posts, so I did want to reply to what you described about your therapist.

I don't think it is helpful to you when your therapist calls you annoying, or gets angry at you. It's too much like what probably happened a lot when you were a child. Even given that therapists make mistakes, I think the mistakes should be very uncommon- even rare. It's a difficult situation for you to be in, as now you need to speak up for yourself and clarify the whole counter-tranference which HE has. It's very hard to do that, but from having followed your posts here for more than a year, I feel certain that you are getting better, and that he has been a good therapist to you, so it's worth doing. Awfully hard, though. Let us know what happens, will you?

Pfinstegg

 

Re: Therapy U! » DaisyM

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:29:57

In reply to Therapy U! » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 19:49:53

I'm not quite sure which one is the real me. It depends when you ask. :) (Of course, I'm never super competent!)

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:41:26

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 19:57:32

Oh Tabitha. What a lovely reframing. Thank you so much. :) That was like a gift.

And perhaps there is some truth in what you say. Sometimes he says I'm a challenging client. I like that better than annoying. And I do engage him quite a bit. Sometimes it feels like a battle for engagement. All perfectly therapylike, of course. He said once that a lot of what he's learned about being a better therapist he's learned from me.

I'll try to think of it that way. And maybe I'll also try to pin him down on what he's finding so annoying. Maybe either I can change it, or he can become an even better therapist by recognizing another pocket of his stuff that's getting in his way.

Thank you again.

 

Re: therapists who get angry.. » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:47:20

In reply to therapists who get angry.. » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 20:47:09

I no longer really think of his getting angry as a real problem, except that I'm just realizing how *often* he gets angry. He may be overdoing that lesson a bit.

I'll try to explore it a bit more. To his credit, after the fuss I made today, he'll probably insist on it whether I want to or not.

I can't imagine that the couch brings on even more regression than my face to face therapy brings. I'd have to go back to being an embryo, I think. Or even a gleam in my father's eye.

 

Re: therapists who get angry.. » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 22:57:05

In reply to Re: therapists who get angry.. » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:47:20


Well, it just happened that within the past week I found myself imagining that he had a zipper on his tummy, and that I unzipped it and crawled inside! He said, " I'm glad you are able to use me for what you need". No big deal at all.

Pfinstegg

 

Re: therapists who get angry.. » Pfinstegg

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 23:01:56

In reply to Re: therapists who get angry.. » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 22:57:05

Grin. I do like your therapist. He sounds unflappable.

 

Re: therapists who stay calm.. » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 23:07:38

In reply to Re: therapists who get angry.. » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 23:01:56

Thanks, Dinah! I know he'd like you a lot, too.

Pfinstegg

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah

Posted by mair on January 8, 2004, at 8:09:09

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

>" We've had the discussion a few times. Sometimes directly, more often indirectly. He says he cares about me, that he likes me, that he wants what's best for me. That he's fond of me if only for all the years we've put in together. That he wouldn't have been my therapist for all those years if he disliked me. But it's all that therapist stuff that all therapists say, and so I distrust it."


Dinah - I certainly know what you mean because I've used similar reasoning to filter out all sorts of positive things my therapist has said. On the other hand, this statement reminded me an awfully lot of the reaction I sometimes get from my children when I pay them a compliment. You know the "you're only saying that because you're my mother" kind of reaction. I sometimes feel that having one of my kids react in that way is too bad because my compliment was so genuine. So how do we tell when our therapist's positive comments are genuine? It's particularly tough when the recipient is, like so many of us, poised to believe only the worst.

Mair

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2004, at 9:07:55

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah, posted by mair on January 8, 2004, at 8:09:09

> >" We've had the discussion a few times. Sometimes directly, more often indirectly. He says he cares about me, that he likes me, that he wants what's best for me. That he's fond of me if only for all the years we've put in together. That he wouldn't have been my therapist for all those years if he disliked me. But it's all that therapist stuff that all therapists say, and so I distrust it."
>
>
> Dinah - I certainly know what you mean because I've used similar reasoning to filter out all sorts of positive things my therapist has said. On the other hand, this statement reminded me an awfully lot of the reaction I sometimes get from my children when I pay them a compliment. You know the "you're only saying that because you're my mother" kind of reaction. I sometimes feel that having one of my kids react in that way is too bad because my compliment was so genuine. So how do we tell when our therapist's positive comments are genuine? It's particularly tough when the recipient is, like so many of us, poised to believe only the worst.
>
> Mair

I think I go by the feeling in the room. Granted, I'm a bit better at picking up bad feelings than good. But I'm not bad at the latter. So if he says he cares for me but there isn't a positive charge to the room, his face is flat, and there's no tone of affection to his voice, I'm going to discount it. Ditto for the other things. Also, if he says those things when I'm really really upset at negative things he's said, and right before the end of a session, I'll probably assume he says those things because he doesn't want to get a half dozen hysterical phone calls from me. He's not stupid, and he's figured that works.

If I hear liking or caring in his words, and that matches the tone of voice, the facial expression, and the feeling in the room, I'll believe it. That just hasn't happened all that often, especially lately. It has happened in the past though, on occasion. On the last day at the old office, most of the office had shut down because of inclement weather. I commented that I was expecting a call from him, and he told me he wouldn't do that to me on the last day. That he knew important that office was to me. That sounded like, and felt like, genuine caring.

Do your therapist's words match her expression, tone of voice, and the overall feeling in the room? Is there congruence? If there is, I think you should believe her.

 

Above for Mair... (nm)

Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2004, at 9:08:33

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by Dinah on January 8, 2004, at 9:07:55

 

Therapist who is calm, but can get angry » Dinah

Posted by Poet on January 8, 2004, at 11:00:24

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

Dinah,

I hope we all get off that therapy roller coaster before we get motion sickness in addition to emotional sickness.

I've only seem my therapist angry at me a few times, generally when I clam up and just won't talk. She told me I'm not the easiest person to work with and that it's frustrating having to fish (complete with rod and reel gesture) for information. "I can't help you if you won't tell me what's going on inside your head." It was kind of in gest, but her facial expression was frustration and anger.

If you feel you are up to seeing to your therapist, tomorrow, talk about his anger and dependency issues with women. I think he needs to realize the negative impact of this on you.

I hope the EDMR therapist works out, I've never tried that, let me know what it's like. God knows I need it.

Keep those suitcases unpacked, the babblers need you!

Poet


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