Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 297437

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((((Dinah))) (nm)

Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 7, 2004, at 8:23:00

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah, posted by Penny on January 7, 2004, at 8:15:24

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah

Posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 7, 2004, at 8:33:55

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

> I dunno. He is mad at me an awful lot. my husband is mad at me an awful lot. My bosses are mad at me an awful lot too. I feel like just giving up. I try to be a good girl, and still everyone is mad at me.
------------

Is there any pattern to all this? More importantly, can you often anticipate when these people will be upset with you? Has it been this way all your life?

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Eddie Sylvano

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:03:46

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah, posted by Eddie Sylvano on January 7, 2004, at 8:33:55

No, it hasn't been this way all my life. I was the golden girl, the wunderkind. Not pretty or anything, but smart and productive. Teachers loved me, bosses begged me never to leave.

I know why my bosses are angry with me, and they aren't wrong.

My husband is critical of everyone including my delightful son, so I tend to discount him other than to want to hurt myself.

But my therapist *knows* all of me. If he thinks I'm annoying that means more than the rest. If he's angry with me a lot, I must be anger producing. That's an indictment of who I am to my toes.

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah

Posted by Poet on January 7, 2004, at 9:05:49

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

Dinah,

Chocolate for you, and treats for Harry.

I think your therapist needs to see someone regarding his misdirected anger. Maybe he's really angry at himself for not being the "perfect" therapist because you're going to try EMDR which he doesn't do?

You're not whining, you're just trying to figure out what you did wrong, which from what I can tell is nothing.

Poet

 

Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do.

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:13:46

In reply to ((((Dinah))) (nm), posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 7, 2004, at 8:23:00

I know I'm not thinking with the most rational, grown up part of me. I spent all the early morning awake and planning. Planning to leave. Pick up Harry and his meds, and leave. Planning out the details of what I need to do before I go.

But now I'm awake I'll give it some time to let rationality take over. I might even call my therapist to find out if I'm annoying in comparison with others. Maybe he just finds everyone annoying.

I'm trying guys. I'm trying to give the grownup part of me time to take over. But the little girl inner child in me *hurts*. And can drive and has a charge card and wants to run away.

(PS. Looks like this EMDR therapist will be giving me a pass).

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah

Posted by Penny on January 7, 2004, at 9:33:44

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:03:46

> No, it hasn't been this way all my life. I was the golden girl, the wunderkind. Not pretty or anything, but smart and productive. Teachers loved me, bosses begged me never to leave.

- I can certainly see this in you.


> I know why my bosses are angry with me, and they aren't wrong.

- Perhaps not, but, truly, try to tell yourself that they aren't angry with YOU as a person, they are angry with something to do with your work. I'm doing the same thing - I know my boss is angry with me, but I HAVE to detach from it and tell myself (convincingly!) that his anger is not a reflection of the things in life that really matter. Not that work doesn't matter - but even if you aren't getting your work done satisfactorily, that doesn't make you a bad person, Dinah. You are a wonderful human being. You are just having some trouble right now.


> My husband is critical of everyone including my delightful son, so I tend to discount him other than to want to hurt myself.

- That's good that you can discount him - see that just because he's being critical doesn't mean he has reason to be!


> But my therapist *knows* all of me. If he thinks I'm annoying that means more than the rest. If he's angry with me a lot, I must be anger producing. That's an indictment of who I am to my toes.

- BUT - your therapist is HUMAN. Which means that just because he KNOWS you doesn't mean that his feelings toward or about you aren't off base, at least some of the time! I really tend to think that your T is so close to the situation - has been seeing you for so long - that he's not as objective as perhaps he should be. I wonder if (and think that) his anger toward you isn't really more of a reflection of his inability to make you into someone you're not. Does he feel like a failure? Like if you make a mistake, or what he might see as a mistake (whether or not it really is a 'mistake') after being his client for so long, that it speaks to his ability as a therapist?

You say "If he thinks I'm annoying that means more than the rest." I know the tendency is to weigh his words/feelings more heavily b/c he IS your therapist - but he's NOT perfect, and his words/feelings aren't ALWAYS going to be accurate - even if he knows you well, better than most, doesn't mean his view of you is necessarily 100 percent accurate!

"If he's angry with me a lot, I must be anger producing." Or perhaps he's just an angry person. Personally, and I truly do believe this, people who are angry a lot, regardless of who the anger is directed toward, are mostly angry with themselves for something. You are not in that therapy room with his other patients. I know that you sometimes tell yourself that he's more frustrated with you than with his other patients, that he dislikes you more, etc., but perhaps this is just how he is? I really think that you would have an entirely different perspective from a different therapist. And biofeedback guy doesn't count. I think if you had been in therapy for all these years with a different therapist, that T might have an entirely different take on you.

I'm so afraid of people being angry with me that I freak out and shut down when they are. Just like when my former T was angry with me for finding out her address, and I became suicidal. My current T, who doesn't seem to get angry at me, bless her, said that that is the type of situation where DBT training could help. After my boss confronted me recently for not getting my work done, I went home and was a mess, and wanted to hurt myself, and sat on the phone with my pdoc for 30 minutes. And he helped me put that in perspective. And both he and my T have helped me to understand (and I am STILL struggling with this) that when someone is angry with me, it is not the end of the world. People are entitled to feel however they are going to feel, but we can't let ourselves be overly affected by the feelings of others. I know, easier said than done.

Dinah, YOU are a wonderful person, a caring, thoughtful, compassionate, loving, kind, sincere, honest, intelligent individual who obviously, judging from the other posts on this thread, has lots of friends and people pulling for you. I wish I could do more to help you through all of this. It sucks, really. Listen to your friends - we know you too! Try to let the anger of your therapist, your husband, your bosses, etc., roll off you and absorb the love and compassion that you deserve.

Take care.
P

 

Re: One step, one breath, at a time. (nm) » Dinah

Posted by Penny on January 7, 2004, at 9:35:17

In reply to Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:13:46

 

Re: Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do. » Dinah

Posted by shar on January 7, 2004, at 9:51:53

In reply to Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:13:46

Dinah,
Everybody is annoying. It seems if you were excessively annoying your T would have made your annoyingness a specific issue that needed to be worked on. If he said you are annoying at times, that's probably what he meant. I've had my T indicate the same to me.

But, let me point out that there is a difference between *doing something* that annoys someone and "being" annoying. It's common for many of us to define ourselves by what we do or what we have (I'm unipolar depressive or I'm BPII) and I'm not sure it's a good thing. Because we are much more than UD or BPII or...annoying.

I hope you are feeling better today, and I'm sorry your emdr person may give you a pass (if you wanted to go, that is).

Shar

 

Re: Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do. » Dinah

Posted by judy1 on January 7, 2004, at 10:05:26

In reply to Thanks everyone. I'm trying to decide what to do., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 9:13:46

I'm sorry you're in this pattern Dinah, I know it well. We start thinking there's something wrong with us, everybody is angry, what's the point? sometimes I think it's OCD, the obsessing and pushing so that even if the person is not angry at first, we can make them feel that way. sometimes other people have reasons to be angry (that have nothing to do with us) but we being the over-sensitive beings that we are, internalize it and make it all about us. you are a warm, caring person and that did not change overnight- your thinking patterns can change overnight, but the essential 'you' cannot. I'm glad you are feeling more rational today, why not think of reasons why these people in your life (boss, spouse, therp) may have reasons to be upset that have nothing to do with you- i.e.- cut yourself some slack.
take care, judy

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah

Posted by Karen_kay on January 7, 2004, at 11:28:49

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

Dinah,

This sounds to me like a simple case of miscommunication. That is all. Your therapist should have handled it better. I'm sorry he didn't. We all make mistakes at times. And it sounds like your therapist didn't handle himself well in this situation. There was a lack of communication and your therapist blew it out of proportion. That's a shame.

The fact that he said you are annoying at times is sad. But I'm proud of you for having the courage to ask him. I'd never be able to ask my therapist that. I'm afraid that he would in fact say "Yes Karen, you are very annoying." I'm sorry that he said that to you.
But remember he is human. Is it possible he said it out of anger. He was upset with you at the time and that anger could have been clouding his judgement. I'm sure he couldn't find you overly annoying, he has after all been your therapist for quite a while. If he found you too be very annoying, do you think that he would continue to be your therapist for so long?

You've had a rough couple of days. And that also clouds your judgement. When someone upsets you, you start to see the negative in everything about yourself. Your husband loves you for the wonderful person you are. And your son loves his beautiful mother, and needs her to be there for him. You don't want to run away. You want to say there and heal. Not only for yourself, but also for your wonderful family and lovely dogs. Hang in there girl. We love you on the boards and I can tell you from my personal experience I have NEVER EVER once found you to be the slightest bit annoying!!! I promise!!!


 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time

Posted by pegasus on January 7, 2004, at 13:32:17

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

I agree so much with what everyone else is saying. Dinah, you are wonderfully helpful and kind, from what I've seen here. And anyway everyone has their annoying moments. And your T was probably speaking (slightly inappropriately) out of frustration about something that he was misunderstanding anyway. My therapist has mentioned being annoyed at me (although always in a specific context - e.g., "I was annoyed when you did that."). It sucks, even though I don't think I generally am an annoying person. And, hell, he annoys me all the time. And it's ok. Annoying people and being annoyed by them is part of life, and a good relationship can contain those moments, as well as the times when you just connect like legos.

Which is not to trivialize how much it sucks when someone really important to you is annoyed or angry. Especially when he tells you about it. For me, that's the biggest SI trigger, and it sounds like you're having trouble in that arena as well. Please try to keep yourself safe, maybe by reading all of these posts about how much everyone here disagrees with your therapist. I love the idea of you telling him that it was really hard to hear him say that you were annoying. Maybe this will lead to some productive therapy, or relationship building anyway. I hope. I'll be thinking about you today.

-p

 

I echo the others, you're very kind and caring (nm)

Posted by gardenergirl on January 7, 2004, at 15:09:08

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by pegasus on January 7, 2004, at 13:32:17

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me Dinah

Posted by antigua on January 7, 2004, at 16:06:41

In reply to Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by Dinah on January 6, 2004, at 22:42:39

Dinah, please listen to all these supportive messages. Many, many people care about you and please know how helpful you have been to everyone on this board. You are very much appreciated.
antigua

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 16:36:39

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me Dinah, posted by antigua on January 7, 2004, at 16:06:41

Thanks again everyone. I'm feeling a bit more my grownup self. I took some Klonopin, slept a lot, and even went in to work for a bit, as my presence there is going to be required at least a little bit every day for the next few months. I unpacked what I had packed. I suppose I can always decide to run away later.

I called my therapist. He said I take things too seriously. Sometimes he seems to realize how really important he is to me, but times like this he seems to totally miss it. He said I wasn't anywhere near his most annoying client. And that I wasn't annoying all the time, just some of the time. And that everything would be ok. But it sounded awfully hollow today. Perhaps because I was being annoying by asking? Sigh. (wry smile)

I have this odd desire to cancel Friday, or to go in and say nothing, so that I won't chance being annoying. But I suppose that *would* be annoying. It's a no win situation.

I know that he's trying to teach me that he can be angry and still care about me. But somehow "annoying" is different. And he didn't say my behavior was annoying sometimes, but that I was. And I suppose I am. I'm a dependent little creature with him, and I suspect he doesn't like pathetic dependent creatures.

Oh well. I didn't cut. I didn't run away, though I'm reserving the option.

And if he wants me to take responsibility for my EMDR therapy, he should be pleased with me (but won't be). Since the person he recommended all but told me she didn't feel qualified to work with me, I called two level II certified EMDR therapists and have already made an appointment with one. I told her pretty much what he wanted me to tell her, although in a way I felt comfortable expressing it. So he won't need to talk to her at all unless something comes up during therapy that she feels he needs to know. So there. I took complete responsibility.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your support when I was feeling so scared and lost. I'm doing ok now - still fragile but better than before. At least until the wee early hours of the morning when the monsters come out to play.

((((Babblers))))

P.S. He did say something interesting Tuesday that I intend to ask about Friday, although chances are he won't elaborate. I was afraid something I was doing with the EMDR therapist would cause her to shy away from taking me as a client. He said there *were* red flags in preliminary calls, but that wasn't one of them. But now I want to know what he thinks they are so that I don't make those mistakes in calling mental health professionals.

 

So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 17:28:15

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 16:36:39

You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!

Seriously, good for you for taking this opportunity to take charge and get something done. I think you heard "hollow" because you had to ask...I'm sure he meant what he said.

Don't go in on Friday and not talk. Tell him what you have accomplished by this surprise catalyst. And ask about those red flags. I bet we all could learn from that.

Now, take a breath and relax. You deserve to. Have you noticed how many seats are now occupied on the babble therapy roller-coaster? I think I want off!

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

In reply to So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 17:28:15

> You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!
>
I hate those. :) And I'm not sure I'm quite there yet. I still feel surprisingly tearful. Maybe therapy sophisticate me wants more from my therapist than he can actually give. Like liking me, or enjoying his sessions with me.

> Seriously, good for you for taking this opportunity to take charge and get something done. I think you heard "hollow" because you had to ask...I'm sure he meant what he said.

He rarely lies, I guess. And when he does he does it badly. I suppose he meant what he said, as far as it goes. What he didn't say would be what I wouldn't want to know.
>
> Don't go in on Friday and not talk. Tell him what you have accomplished by this surprise catalyst. And ask about those red flags. I bet we all could learn from that.
>
Yes, I'll make sure to post the red flags, if he's willing to divulge those trade secrets.

> Now, take a breath and relax. You deserve to. Have you noticed how many seats are now occupied on the babble therapy roller-coaster? I think I want off!

I know I do. What happened to my safe space?

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah

Posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 18:55:36

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

> > You know...another F** Growth Opportunity!!
> >
> I hate those. :) And I'm not sure I'm quite there yet. I still feel surprisingly tearful. Maybe therapy sophisticate me wants more from my therapist than he can actually give. Like liking me, or enjoying his sessions with me.

Dinah, I swear I posted this already but I can't find it. Did you ever consider just asking him how he feels about you-- or more specificially, if he likes you? I suspect you'd be pleasantly surprised by the answer. Having him tell you the whole picture of his feelings might help put comments like this annoying one into perspective.

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time

Posted by LostGirl on January 7, 2004, at 19:06:49

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » Dinah, posted by Poet on January 7, 2004, at 9:05:49

From what I've read about counter-transference, therapists are supposed to tune in to how clients make them feel, not just to monitor themselves, but because it informs them. If a client makes them feel a certain way - bored, angry, aroused, whatever, the client is probably having the same affect on other people. That is something a skilled therapist can use in a helpful way, with tact, and carefully chosen words, and feedback that directs the person to their actions and the reactions it causes. But something like agreeing he finds you annoying is to me in no way helpful, tactful or professional. That is hurtful and destructive. The new Yalom book (I can't think of the name, if you want it I'll look for it) talks a lot about this and how he has used what feelings people elicit in him to give helpful feedback in a kind way.

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » Dinah, posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 18:55:36

We've had the discussion a few times. Sometimes directly, more often indirectly. He says he cares about me, that he likes me, that he wants what's best for me. That he's fond of me if only for all the years we've put in together. That he wouldn't have been my therapist for all those years if he disliked me. But it's all that therapist stuff that all therapists say, and so I distrust it. I mean, he could hardly answer that he can't stand to see me and only does it because I pay more than any of his other clients.

Once when I talked about my preferred method of suicide, he winced. I think that was the most genuine thing he ever did/said. I was really touched. I had rather thought he would stand over my body, fold his arms, and say "I'm sorry she made that choice" before walking off. I actually promised him not to kill myself without giving him a chance to help first, I was so touched. I also told him not to tell me if the wince was actually a leg cramp or something.

He's also told me a few genuine things when he was tired and stressed. Things that he probably shouldn't have told me. About how he has trouble with dependent women. About how that's his problem, not mine. Now that was one statement about his feelings that sounded believable. :) I told him he was pretty much in the wrong profession.

I don't know. Sometimes he does things that make it seem as if he does care. Like scheduling me for the mornings of his flight if he's leaving late enough to do it. Things like that. Or laughing at me. When he laughs at the annoying things I do, it feels like he likes me ok.

But he does get angry with me an awful lot. Do most therapists get angry that often? Or show it anyway?

 

Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » LostGirl

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:37:25

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time, posted by LostGirl on January 7, 2004, at 19:06:49

I guess I shouldn't ask questions I don't want to know the answer to. I was looking for reassurance, not honesty! He does try really hard to be honest with me though, and I suppose I should appreciate that. Maybe another time...

I love reading Yalom! Wouldn't you love to have him as a therapist (at least if he actually is as he portrays himself?).

I'm not sure how useful it would be for my therapist to use his countertransference reactions to see how I interact with the world. I am pretty much a whole different person in therapy. I agree with the idea in concept, but honestly, you wouldn't recognize the therapy client me. No one would. I guess that's bad in a way because I can't use the relationship as a microcosm of my other relationships. Maybe the first five years or so we could/did.

 

Therapy U! » Dinah

Posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 19:49:53

In reply to Re: Why my therapist is mad at me - this time » LostGirl, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:37:25

<<<but honestly, you wouldn't recognize the therapy client me

>>>Really! I'm so relieved. I thought it was just me. I sometimes wonder if my therapist saw me at work if he would feel like I've been putting him on. It is actually the other way around, pretending to feel competent, etc. when you want to stay home under the covers. I tell him of course, but the difference is really huge.

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!

Posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 19:57:32

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 19:31:27

>
> He's also told me a few genuine things when he was tired and stressed. Things that he probably shouldn't have told me. About how he has trouble with dependent women. About how that's his problem, not mine. Now that was one statement about his feelings that sounded believable. :) I told him he was pretty much in the wrong profession.

Dinah, you crack me up. I'd say this exchange is even more evidence he likes you. Here you are, showing your dependent side, which is something he has an issue with, yet he still likes you. Call me pollyanna but I don't think he'd say he liked you if he didn't.

>
> But he does get angry with me an awful lot. Do most therapists get angry that often? Or show it anyway?

I don't know. Mine doesn't get angry very much, but I don't think I get into so much attachment with her as you do with yours. I picture you being pretty clear with yours about what you need and want from him, and trying your darndest to get it from him. You're bound to bring up more of the gamut of emotions from him than a client who keeps more of a distance. I admire you for engaging with him enough to get him angry. I'll bet you're working out stuff you need to work out, and getting your therapy dollar's worth.

 

therapists who get angry.. » Dinah

Posted by Pfinstegg on January 7, 2004, at 20:47:09

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 17:40:26

Hi Dinah! I haven't been posting for a while, as I got so involved in my own therapy, and didn't know what to post about all the stuff that was happening there! But I have been following what others have been posting every few days, and always follow your posts, so I did want to reply to what you described about your therapist.

I don't think it is helpful to you when your therapist calls you annoying, or gets angry at you. It's too much like what probably happened a lot when you were a child. Even given that therapists make mistakes, I think the mistakes should be very uncommon- even rare. It's a difficult situation for you to be in, as now you need to speak up for yourself and clarify the whole counter-tranference which HE has. It's very hard to do that, but from having followed your posts here for more than a year, I feel certain that you are getting better, and that he has been a good therapist to you, so it's worth doing. Awfully hard, though. Let us know what happens, will you?

Pfinstegg

 

Re: Therapy U! » DaisyM

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:29:57

In reply to Therapy U! » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 7, 2004, at 19:49:53

I'm not quite sure which one is the real me. It depends when you ask. :) (Of course, I'm never super competent!)

 

Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO! » tabitha

Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2004, at 22:41:26

In reply to Re: So, it turned out to be an AFGO!, posted by tabitha on January 7, 2004, at 19:57:32

Oh Tabitha. What a lovely reframing. Thank you so much. :) That was like a gift.

And perhaps there is some truth in what you say. Sometimes he says I'm a challenging client. I like that better than annoying. And I do engage him quite a bit. Sometimes it feels like a battle for engagement. All perfectly therapylike, of course. He said once that a lot of what he's learned about being a better therapist he's learned from me.

I'll try to think of it that way. And maybe I'll also try to pin him down on what he's finding so annoying. Maybe either I can change it, or he can become an even better therapist by recognizing another pocket of his stuff that's getting in his way.

Thank you again.


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