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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:14:10
In reply to transference confusion, posted by crushedout on September 1, 2003, at 21:26:43
Originally posted by Crushedout 9/1/03
>
> After seeing her for a year and a half, I finally confessed my romantic/parent-child feelings toward my therapist (for me, it’s really a mixture of both types) to her.
>
> She was very accepting and made me feel very comfortable talking to her, but she told me some stuff that I found confusing. She said that she had noticed me flirting with her in earlier sessions and noticed herself "playing with" that, and that she "found [me] very beautiful." I really trust her and believe she would never allow anything physical or otherwise inappropriate to happen between us (although I want it to), but I can't understand what the therapeutic purpose might have been of telling me she found me beautiful. It made me feel really good, but it just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Maybe that was a mistake on her part, or maybe not (since it made me feel good and safe with her, and sort of like my feelings were not so crazy).
>
>
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 10:19:01
In reply to Re: transference confusion » crushedout, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:14:10
Dinah, thanks for posting this here. I guess I put it in the wrong place. I'm really interested in people's thoughts on this. I'm new to this website.
> Originally posted by Crushedout 9/1/03
> >
> > After seeing her for a year and a half, I finally confessed my romantic/parent-child feelings toward my therapist (for me, it’s really a mixture of both types) to her.
> >
> > She was very accepting and made me feel very comfortable talking to her, but she told me some stuff that I found confusing. She said that she had noticed me flirting with her in earlier sessions and noticed herself "playing with" that, and that she "found [me] very beautiful." I really trust her and believe she would never allow anything physical or otherwise inappropriate to happen between us (although I want it to), but I can't understand what the therapeutic purpose might have been of telling me she found me beautiful. It made me feel really good, but it just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Maybe that was a mistake on her part, or maybe not (since it made me feel good and safe with her, and sort of like my feelings were not so crazy).
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:23:46
In reply to Re: transference confusion » crushedout, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:14:10
It doesn't sound like the most boundary keeping answer she could have given. Part of what makes therapy feel so safe is the knowledge that we can rely on our therapists to maintain those boundaries with sensitivity and compassion.
But I guess to look at it charitably, she could have been at a loss for words and so was honest. My therapist has done that a few times, but has always repaired it.
If you feel at all like she won't maintain those boundaries, I'd run for the hills, or to a therapist who has more training in transference/countertransference.
Have you read "In Session" by Deborah Lott? It discusses a lot of those feelings we have for our therapists, and the most appropriate ways for therapists to handle them.
Just my two cents. My therapist is always careful to tell me that he can't be my mother and has no desire to be my mother. And that's ok, because I don't really want him to be my mother; I want him to be my therapist/mommy. :)
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:25:48
In reply to Re: transference confusion, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 10:19:01
You're very welcome. And welcome to Babble. Transference issues seem to be the topic of most interest on this board, and if you peruse the archives, you might see some things that make you feel right at home. :)
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 10:28:26
In reply to Re: transference confusion » Dinah, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 10:23:46
Yeah, she told me a couple sessions before, when I was hinting at the crush, that it was her job to maintain boundaries so that we would both feel safe. She also said that the flirtation and sexual energy between us was kind of "scary." I really trust her, but I'm wondering why she's divulging so much. I'm really *glad* she is, but I know it might not be kosher. I'm wondering what her strategy is.No, I haven't read that book, but I'll definitely get a copy ASAP.
Thanks, Dinah.
> It doesn't sound like the most boundary keeping answer she could have given. Part of what makes therapy feel so safe is the knowledge that we can rely on our therapists to maintain those boundaries with sensitivity and compassion.
>
> But I guess to look at it charitably, she could have been at a loss for words and so was honest. My therapist has done that a few times, but has always repaired it.
>
> If you feel at all like she won't maintain those boundaries, I'd run for the hills, or to a therapist who has more training in transference/countertransference.
>
> Have you read "In Session" by Deborah Lott? It discusses a lot of those feelings we have for our therapists, and the most appropriate ways for therapists to handle them.
>
> Just my two cents. My therapist is always careful to tell me that he can't be my mother and has no desire to be my mother. And that's ok, because I don't really want him to be my mother; I want him to be my therapist/mommy. :)
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 11:49:35
In reply to Re: transference confusion » Dinah, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 10:28:26
Ok, now you're getting into less grey areas. If she is telling you that much, it's probably too much. At the very least I'd write it all down and get a consultation. This sort of flirtation is not at all healthy, and leads to expectations that can't be and shouldn't be met. Since she's not maintaining proper boundaries, and that doesn't make it a safe place for you to experience your feelings, I'd see if I could find another therapist to talk it over with.
Posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 12:36:41
In reply to Re: transference confusion » crushedout, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 11:49:35
If she's confessing sexual energy coming from her then it's dicey. There is really no good reason for her to divulge this one or way or the other. If she says "Yes" she gets your hopes up (she's not allowed to be sexual with a client) and if she says "No" you feel rejected. She's supposed to explore your feelings with you and not aknowledge one way or the other how she feels.
I felt energy with my therapist too. The most she said was that I was special, that she was closer to me than her other clients and a few times she's mentioned something about "beauty" and stuff. All probably pushing the line and she's apologized for it. If yours is actually coming out and admitting sexual energy, etc. then you've got either an inexperienced therapist and/or not a very competent one.
Just curious: are you both gay? In my situation I'm lesbian, my therapist is bi-sexual.
I also think Dinah's recc on the book is great--it'll help you figure things out and make you run for the hills in terms of exploring a relationship outside of therapy!
Rigby
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 13:19:55
In reply to I Agree With Dinah, posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 12:36:41
I dunno. I really think she's an excellent therapist, and fairly experienced (although I suppose I've never asked her really how long she's been practicing -- my guess is around 8 years -- I should ask her). But she still may have made a mistake telling me that stuff. I really don't want to see anyone else or run for the hills. I love her, of course. As a therapist, and as an idealized object. Both. She's helped me SO much.I'm bi, I guess. I haven't dated a man in a really long time, though, so I'm used to identifying as lesbian. My therapist is married to a man, so I assume she basically identifies as straight, but she feels to me like someone who understands her (latent or not so latent) bisexuality.
> If she's confessing sexual energy coming from her then it's dicey. There is really no good reason for her to divulge this one or way or the other. If she says "Yes" she gets your hopes up (she's not allowed to be sexual with a client) and if she says "No" you feel rejected. She's supposed to explore your feelings with you and not aknowledge one way or the other how she feels.
>
> I felt energy with my therapist too. The most she said was that I was special, that she was closer to me than her other clients and a few times she's mentioned something about "beauty" and stuff. All probably pushing the line and she's apologized for it. If yours is actually coming out and admitting sexual energy, etc. then you've got either an inexperienced therapist and/or not a very competent one.
>
> Just curious: are you both gay? In my situation I'm lesbian, my therapist is bi-sexual.
>
> I also think Dinah's recc on the book is great--it'll help you figure things out and make you run for the hills in terms of exploring a relationship outside of therapy!
>
> Rigby
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 13:26:52
In reply to I Agree With Dinah, posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 12:36:41
I'm also not sure whether she's confessing sexual energy coming from her, or whether I'm reading that into it wishfully. She definitely said she found me very beautiful, and I believe she talked about the sexual energy "between us" (which to me suggested it was mutual, but again, maybe that's wishful thinking).I guess what I'm wondering is that if she's clear with me that we're never going to act on it, might there be a good reason for admitting her feelings to me, even tangentially? I'm not sure. I guess I need to ask her about this. But I'm afraid to, because I don't want her to put up boundaries. I keep hoping that she'll run off and marry me.
> If she's confessing sexual energy coming from her then it's dicey. There is really no good reason for her to divulge this one or way or the other. If she says "Yes" she gets your hopes up (she's not allowed to be sexual with a client) and if she says "No" you feel rejected. She's supposed to explore your feelings with you and not aknowledge one way or the other how she feels.
>
> I felt energy with my therapist too. The most she said was that I was special, that she was closer to me than her other clients and a few times she's mentioned something about "beauty" and stuff. All probably pushing the line and she's apologized for it. If yours is actually coming out and admitting sexual energy, etc. then you've got either an inexperienced therapist and/or not a very competent one.
>
> Just curious: are you both gay? In my situation I'm lesbian, my therapist is bi-sexual.
>
> I also think Dinah's recc on the book is great--it'll help you figure things out and make you run for the hills in terms of exploring a relationship outside of therapy!
>
> Rigby
Posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 14:50:52
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 13:26:52
Is there a reason you're not sure if she confessed sexual energy? It may be that you want her to say it so badly that you might be reading into it? Also, saying that she finds you beautiful could also mean a beautiful person. I'm not doubting you at all but I know when I had it bad I was so eager to intepret anything as being a clue to her wanting me as much as I wanted her. I think it wouldn't hurt to talk directly with her about all of it--I have a feeling it'll take the steam out of things which will I think make you feel lots better--you don't want to have a crush on your therapist--it'll be highly, highly frustrating not to mention, in the end, most likely pretty darn messy.
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 16:19:41
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah, posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 14:50:52
Well, the reason is I didn't pursue it. But no, I'm pretty sure she meant that I was beautiful physically. Her exact words were: "I find you very beautiful." There was an implied "but" in my mind after, although she didn't say it. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but some of it is a sort of sexual flirtation or teasing coming from her, and I'm just wondering whether there is in fact a therapeutic reason for it. I'm going to try to ask her although it may be hard, since I'm afraid of the answer. (I like the teasing and I don't want her to stop, also.)> Is there a reason you're not sure if she confessed sexual energy? It may be that you want her to say it so badly that you might be reading into it? Also, saying that she finds you beautiful could also mean a beautiful person. I'm not doubting you at all but I know when I had it bad I was so eager to intepret anything as being a clue to her wanting me as much as I wanted her. I think it wouldn't hurt to talk directly with her about all of it--I have a feeling it'll take the steam out of things which will I think make you feel lots better--you don't want to have a crush on your therapist--it'll be highly, highly frustrating not to mention, in the end, most likely pretty darn messy.
Posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 16:26:58
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah » Rigby, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 16:19:41
P.S. I already *have* an enormous crush on my therapist, I *think*, right? Isn't that what it is? And isn't that sort of the whole point? The "crush" (a.k.a. transference) leads to all this good (albeit difficult) stuff.
> Well, the reason is I didn't pursue it. But no, I'm pretty sure she meant that I was beautiful physically. Her exact words were: "I find you very beautiful." There was an implied "but" in my mind after, although she didn't say it. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but some of it is a sort of sexual flirtation or teasing coming from her, and I'm just wondering whether there is in fact a therapeutic reason for it. I'm going to try to ask her although it may be hard, since I'm afraid of the answer. (I like the teasing and I don't want her to stop, also.)
>
>
>
> > Is there a reason you're not sure if she confessed sexual energy? It may be that you want her to say it so badly that you might be reading into it? Also, saying that she finds you beautiful could also mean a beautiful person. I'm not doubting you at all but I know when I had it bad I was so eager to intepret anything as being a clue to her wanting me as much as I wanted her. I think it wouldn't hurt to talk directly with her about all of it--I have a feeling it'll take the steam out of things which will I think make you feel lots better--you don't want to have a crush on your therapist--it'll be highly, highly frustrating not to mention, in the end, most likely pretty darn messy.
>
>
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2003, at 18:10:00
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah » Rigby, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 16:19:41
Well, I guess a conversation is in order to clarify her meaning. If she is burdening you with her feelings for you, it's a bad sign. If she's trying to set the limits without it being a reflection on you, she's more appropriate. Although she might need to work on being more clear. :)
It's worth having a discussion of exactly what she meant. But line crossings do happen, and unfortunately you need to be alert for it. Because the reality wouldn't nearly measure up to the fantasy, and you'd be the one left hurt.
Posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 18:10:14
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah » crushedout, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 16:26:58
She may be teasing you to prompt transference--my therapist egged me on a few times like that as I think she wanted me to dump about my feelings. A crush is fine I think as long as you can work through it *with* your therapist to find out where it's coming from. If you keep it a secret and spend your time (and money!) playing a game of "does she like me" it gets not only frustrating but you wonder why you're *paying* for this frustration! And you're keeping secrets from, again, a person you're paying to know and help you.
Posted by kara lynne on September 2, 2003, at 19:26:57
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah, posted by Rigby on September 2, 2003, at 18:10:14
Hi crushed out,
I understand your feelings, first of all. But it does sound like your therapist is getting into some dangerous territory. I had a very damaging experience with a married psychotherapist (he was male, I'm female). He fed into my crush for years, which like you, I wanted very much. I wasn't even attracted to him physically which is different from your situation, but there was something about having that attention from him. He eventually told his wife, and realized I had been nothing but his 'object of countertransference'. He ended up never seeing or talking to me again.To this day I suffer from the effects of that relationship. I'm just worried for you that if you do get what you think you want, it might not be so good. It doesn't sound like your therapist is ready to divorce her husband and run off with you. And if she did by the way, it would be very, very illegal. I'm not sure exactly what the law is, but I think you have to wait two years or something after you've been in therapy with someone to see them socially. And that would just be so confusing.
You had the courage to bring up your feelings so far. I'm not sure what her intention was in telling you she finds you beautiful, but I can't see that it would do anything except fuel the fantasy. That and the comment about the energy between you two being 'scary', indeed scares me. I know it's difficult because you want the attention from her so badly, but it's an area that could hurt you deeply and your therapist has a legal and ethical responsibility not to prey on your vulnerabilities.
Just a word of caution, I don't mean to come off heavy handed. I guess I would encourage you to ask her directly what she meant by telling you those things. If she seems to be continuing a flirtation with you, you might consider the pain of changing therapists now a better alternative to years of damage control.
Good luck.
Posted by stebby on September 2, 2003, at 20:01:23
In reply to Re: transference confusion, posted by crushedout on September 2, 2003, at 10:19:01
Hi crushed out, I agree with what Dinah said. I don't think what your therapist said was appropriate or fair. She is just egging you on in a situation that cannot be reciprocated. Her comments (although nice)are not going to help you resolve any feelings, only "feed the fire." I also highy recomemend "In Session" on this topic. Dinah recommended it to me, and in many ways I found it very helpful. I also have romanic feelings for my female therapist. If my T ever responded like that, I'd be worked into a frenzy and the end result would be devastating (whether she reciprocated or not). If she does reciprocate, chances are the relationship could never work in the real world, and if she doesn't reciprocate, but leads you on like that, your going to feel so confused and frustrated and deeply depressed when you have to accept that nothing can happen.
Posted by allisonf on September 2, 2003, at 20:15:37
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah, posted by kara lynne on September 2, 2003, at 19:26:57
I think everyone who has cautioned you to be careful is right. I also have feelings for my therapist (both of us female, both straight, I guess). But just like stebby, if my therapist complimented me the way I compliment her, I would be "in a frenzy" too. IMHO, there is no therapeutic justification for making a confusing, sexually provocative comment or two about the therapy relationship. While I agree (well maybe the jury's still out) on the fact that transference does serve some healing purpose, I think that healing can only take place if the therapist has no personal agenda. Good luck with it & definitely read "In Session"!
Posted by crushedout on September 3, 2003, at 9:31:08
In reply to Re: I Agree With Dinah kara rigby stebby, posted by allisonf on September 2, 2003, at 20:15:37
Thanks for all your input, it was really interesting. I guess I will try to bring it up with her today, or soon at least. I feel pretty confident that nothing will ever happen between us, so I'm not sure that her flirtation with me is that damaging. Maybe she trusts that I know that. But I agree it was a dangerous thing for her to do and probably not a great idea. I'm so glad she did it anyway. Just knowing that she's attracted to me makes me feel good. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
But it definitely should help to talk about it. That way, she can make it crystal clear what the boundaries are and I can completely accept that she will only ever be my therapist. :( I guess that's a good thing, since she's a good one, and if she became my lover that would totally mess up the therapy (not to mention damage me psychologically beyond belief -- I realize that rationally even though it feels like it would be so healing to be physically intimate with her).
This is the end of the thread.
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