Psycho-Babble Neurotransmitters Thread 965066

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mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by Cydnie on October 8, 2010, at 11:05:26

I'm trying to understand these things, but don't entirely understand the chemistry of it all, but! I'm trying to figure all of this out. I had a psychiatrist once who felt that the things people crave (recreationally) might be telling about what their bodies needed. Anyway, I talked to my doc about how much better my mood is when I take my pain killers (oxycodone) and did an antidepressant have a similar chemical structure so that it wouldn't be addictive but help my mood. He thought it was a great idea, and looked into it. No luck. So I've been trying to figure out what it does exactly, I don't understand if something binds to a receptor, what makes you feel good, but had read it can help release dopamine. Don't know if that's true. I have been treatment resistant for a long time, had bad reactions to ssris, am currently taking pristiq every other day (I think too much NE for me makes me angry) and take adderall every day which I credit to the huge improvement in my days. I am getting out of the house! Huge deal for me and my baby. But my husband wishes I was still feeling good at night of course, and so do I! I had seen on this site some people took emsam with a small bit of adderall and helped them tremendously and my doctor nearly bit my head off when I suggested that. But he did give me requip for my snri sexual dysfunction, which seems to have helped my mood a bit more too, but unfortunately makes me feel sick. So I am still trying to figure out what it is that pain killers do that make someone feel so much brighter and social, and is there any way to touch on those receptors or whatever in another way? I guess if there was everyone would be doing that! I would love to hear if anyone has tried either supplements or meds that have helped them even remotely in this way? Thanks so much, & sorry for the obvious lack of education in this area!

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by rogerk on October 23, 2010, at 18:09:38

In reply to mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?, posted by Cydnie on October 8, 2010, at 11:05:26

lyrica has helped tremendously in my pain area, both in energy and mood. also it has a calming effect as well.

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by Neuroscientist on October 28, 2010, at 18:50:56

In reply to mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?, posted by Cydnie on October 8, 2010, at 11:05:26


Hi, I saw your posting and thought I would reply due to having a great deal of experience with this myself. Although it is politically incorrect to say, opiates can be antidepressants and anxiolytics for even some of the most treatment-resistant patients in psychiatry. Sadly, response and remission rates for depression are pathetic even in optimal conditions.

First- A medication already exists, which although far from ideal, is very close to the description of a 'minimally addictive' opiate that is helpful for depression. The generic name of this compound is Buprenorphine. It is a u-opiate receptor partial agonist, and k-opiate receptor antagonist. These properties reduce the development of tolerance, dependence or overdose. For more information, its all over the internet, but if you'd like me to explain or clarify anything, I'll gladly do so. Other's I know use Tramadol (Ultram) as a weak opiate agonist which also has monoamine re-uptake properties (but you couldn't(or shouldn't) augment SSRIs with it)

Second- There are numerous studies in animals and in humans studying the relationship between opiates and psychiatric issues. In fact, there has been a study of treatment-resistant depressives who were treated with low doses of buprenorphine. Many had striking reactions, after countless other medications,therapy and ECT. There have also been studies showing genetic variants of the opiate receptors in the population (i.e SNPs: Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms), which is especially evident in opiate addicts.

Third- Within a few more years, other opiate medications should be available as prescription for anxiety (These are mainly enkephalin re-uptake inhibitors, or k-antagonists)

I myself have been using Bup, and a few of my other friends who had treatment-resistant depression eventually tried it as well. I use relatively low doses, have had no development of tolerance, and minimal side-effects. I also take an SSRI, lots of Fish Oil, lots of exercise etc.

If you'd like any links to websites, or PDFs for journal articles let me know.

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else? » Neuroscientist

Posted by Cydnie on November 29, 2010, at 15:14:25

In reply to Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?, posted by Neuroscientist on October 28, 2010, at 18:50:56

You may not still be following this (I didn't see your reply until today) but wanted to write back and say thanks. I had looked into buprenorphine and talked with one of the docs from the bup web site. He, it turned out, knew my husband and told me I was too young to get involved with that, and that it is like an addiction to heroin, and that I should look elsewhere. He was very kind, and sent me off with names of 2 other docs, but the consults for each were out of my league ($1500 for one, $650 for the other! Yowza!) So I'm still looking, and taking percocet, but find my tolerance growing which I hate, for both the AD effect, and the pain. So I'm still searching for my depression and pain relief. I'm looking at lyrica, and stablon from, maybe SAM-E. I'm lost though. Anyway, I appreciate your post. Thanks for writing!

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by Neuroscientist on November 30, 2010, at 13:31:44

In reply to Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else? (nm), posted by Neuroscientist on November 30, 2010, at 13:26:50

-Hi there. I get an email whenever someone replies to a post, so I'll always be around. I didn't go into much detail but there are very diverse opinions regarding Bup (or any opiate medication for that matter). The doctor told you it's like 'being addicted to heroin'. The fact is this, Bup has been available as a prescription mainly for pain. However, a few years ago it was noted that it helped opiate addicts (similar to methadone) without being quite as strong, and with less severe withdrawal. So it is now sold under the brand name Suboxone for opiate dependence. Its different from methadone because one does not have to go to a clinic and get the dose everyday, instead one would go to a physician.

I can relate to your experience regarding the wild variating in prices. Here is my advice, which can Save You A LOT OF MONEY. You can find a list of all Suboxone doctors in your state, or area etc. Call all of them to find their cost, and treatment requirements. Some are 'addiction specialists' and they cost 1000's of dollars and make you visit them every week to get your medication. This type of situation may be appropriate for someone with a serious opiate addiction (and also plenty of money!). What I did (and you may not be as lucky, not sure)is looked around, and I found a Primary Care Physician who was also certified to prescribed Suboxone. (A physician can be certified if they take a course, and are allowed only a limited number of Sub patients). At any rate, I only pay the basic/usual copay for a Primary Care Physician (20 bucks if you have insurance, 65 without)and eventually got to point where I got every 3 months (at each visit am given script with refills). So the moral of the story is that if you look around enough and do your homework you SHOULD be able to find an affordable option.

I am curious though, you said you take Percocet. Is this prescribed to you regularly for pain?

You mentioned you are starting to develop a tolerance, which happens. That is why I mentioned Bup. It is a partial agonist. Chemically, this means it does not 'stimulate' the receptor as strong as other opiates (i.e percocet-oxycodone).This means it will not make one as 'eurphoric' or 'buzzed' etc, but it also means less tolerance to the effects, less likely to become dependent, or have withdrawal. For example, I have been taking Bup for 3.5 years, and have not had to increase the dose.

Back to the various opinions topic. When I first told a doctor that opiates helped with my depression, they told me I was 'too young'. I wasn't sure what that meant exactly. Although he was happy to write me an SSRI script. Ideally, one is 'too young' to be depressed, but in the real world, sh*t happens and some people are not helped by the available medication. Also, Suboxone is officially approved only for opiate dependence. If you are already taking opiates regularly (be it for pain, or depression) then one would already be 'dependent'). However, some physicians are very skeptical if you admit you are attempting to medicate depression with opiates. So choose your words wisely etc (not trying to sound ominous, sorry).

If you want any scientific literature on these topics, I have hundreds of papers (journal articles) from peer-reviewed journals that the medical/science community does take seriously. Although its complicated, there is also an explanation why both opiates and adderall can be helpful for you. Perhaps I'll save that for another post.....

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by Neuroscientist on November 30, 2010, at 13:44:35

In reply to Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?, posted by Neuroscientist on November 30, 2010, at 13:31:44

One last thing. I briefly asked about the pain situation, but that may be central to the whole question.

Serious pain can cause depression, or make it worse. So the effect of the Percocet may be secondary to reducing your pain. Also, people with chronic pain conditions also have problems with sleep. Sleep problems can lead several things. One is fatigue, mental cloudiness etc. This may be one reason why adderall is helpful. Also, sleep disruption (especially slow wave sleep(SWS) disruption) can exacerbate pain and also energy levels,mood,clarity of thought etc.)

If you do have a serious pain condiition and are not already seeing a pain specialist, that would obviously be a good thing. They may suggest something like Lyrica. Lyrica (and other meds, both related and unrelated) can improve ones sleep, especially SWS, and therefore pain and its myriad side-effects. Or if the pain is mostly controlled with opiates, but sleep is a problem, perhaps focus on improving that.

Also, it may be clique, but its true: Exercise can boost the production/release of endorphins, and other endogenous opiates, as well as dopamine (i.e adderall). So assuming your pain does not prevent it, some exercise is great chemically, and clinically can be a great antidepressant for many people.

Finally, fish oil. Theres lots of promising research into fish oil for pain, depression, ADHD, heart disease, etc. I tell everyone I know to take it. It is best to take a good brand, since supplements aren't regulated by FDA, so only certain companies make a good product that is 3rd party tested, purity ensured etc. I take Nordic Naturals (good brand, but pricey compared to Wal Mart Brand) In this instance, you get what you pay for. I take 2000-3000mg per day. You may want to look into that.

Anyways sorry I've typed sooooo much stuff. I'm a neuroscience nerd, and temporarily out of work so I have lots of free time on my hands! haha.

 

Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?

Posted by Cydnie on February 22, 2011, at 10:18:11

In reply to Re: mu receptors, endorphins, or something else?, posted by Neuroscientist on November 30, 2010, at 13:44:35

Hi- thanks so much for writing back. It was awhile ago, but right after this I was rushed to the ER, and had so many things go wrong after that,lost so much, and unfortunately became suicidal and haven't been able to get out of my depression this time since then. I'm so desperate, but hadn't been back on dr bob's for so long, and went on last night to ask a question and saw your post back to me! Thanks again so much, and I agree about exercise. It's that dang hurdle I'm trying to get over to just start exercising once or twice to get into it again! Anyway, thanks again. Best to you, Cydnie


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