Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

Posted by Garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 1:52:46

I think I'm addicted to dopamine. I know it. My body is messed up from chronic stress/being in the fight or flight stage most of my life, which caused the anxiety, but I think my other issue is low dopamine levels.

However, I never liked using drugs recreationally. When I was growing up, some of my friends would use weed and cocaine and other stuff, but I would not want to do them. I didn't have major dopamine issues back then. I have been an extremely productive and motivated person most of my life; very focused and decisive, although I adapted to the ADD like symptoms such as being hypercontextual, by keeping myself personally challenged as to not be bored with dull tasks, etc. I'd have some good paying jobs, but I'd quit once I learned the job because I was so bored not being challenged anymore. Those are ADD symptoms, along with the impulsiveness. But still, no addictive tendencies.

THEN-about 8 or 9 years ago, I met my then bf. We had so much sex all the time-it went on for years-and I was so high all the time because he was such a great lover. I really think I became addicted to him. A real addiction. What an epiphany I'm feeling now. At the same time, I'm angry about it. He screwed up my life, and now even though I avoid him like the plague, I still have to suffer the consequences.

So reading these articles, I noticed that the brain is affected with low dopamine levels after repeated, long-term drug use that gets you high; drugs that raised your dopamine level. Then afterwards, all you want to do is get your dopamine levels back to normal. I think this is what happened to me with ex bf--my dopamine levels were so high all those years; my brain is now like an addicts'. So this is where I'm at right now.

It would also explain why I now crave chocolate and carbs and sweets every night--they increase your dopamine levels. This did not start until I quit seeing the ex. I've gained weight. I've been thin most of my life with no problems. Now I crave food when I'm not hungry. I hate it.

Though my family has dopamine issues, I think, with my Grandmother's schitzophrenia and my Dad's alcholism, and more. So maybe I already had the tendancies, and the situation with the x amplified everything.

I've been thinking for quite some time that dopamine might be the key to my treatment--I am pretty confident this is my case. Finally. After all this googling and reading..lol. This makes more sense than anything else, even the Lyme possibility. I might tell my pdoc this tomorrow. Should I?

In any case, I need to figure out how to get my dopamine levels back to normal. But will that create addiction or further need for dopamine enhancing substances? If I can't naturally keep my levels up,it seems to me that anything that raises the level will become an addiction. I read it can take a year or two for the brain to go back to normal on its own.

Okay these articles are old, but were very useful.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,986282,00.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s17964.htm

"That is, that initially the cocaine makes dopamine go up; after you've used cocaine for a long time, it actually causes a decrease from baseline in dopamine levels, and you hate that, you hate that sensation of having low dopamine. And what the addict is trying to do is normalise it.

Norman Swan: In a sense you're addicted to dopamine.

Alan Leshner: Absolutely. You're addicted to normal dopamine. You have to have normalised dopamine levels. And let me give you one more example: many young people are treated with Methylphenidate with Ritalin. Now Ritalin can be highly abusable to someone who does not need it. But when it's given to young people for attention problems, they don't develop addiction, they don't develop compulsive use.

Norman Swan: Because it brings the dopamine levels back up to normal?"

Posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 12:51:25

In reply to Addicted to Dopamine, posted by Garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 1:52:46

Well, people are supposed to fall in love. its normal. in fact being socially withdrawn f*cks with your head because you don't get those dopamine rushes as much (something i was thinking about for myself). its not dopamine that one is addicted to, exactly. dopamine seems to be the way the brain signals when something good will happen, and this helps you associate whatever sensory input was around with the good thing (food, hot hookup, etc). so next time you see the person, or next time you start laying out a line of coke, you get focused on that because the dopamine shaped your memory.

so, i guess i'm not saying you don't need a dopaminergic, but i don't think your brain is messed up just based on that. extinction learning works better if the reward is shifted, not just nonreinforced, so i guess i'm not really saying anything new that meeting someone new is the best way to get the old person out of your head, and maybe dopaminergic would help that when things are complicated.

-d/r

## Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower

Posted by Garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 14:01:31

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 12:51:25

Desolation,

You are always helpful so don't say that. :))

I just got back from my PDoc appt. After not seeing him for over a year then for the initial visit 30 days ago, I was already turned over to the Nurse Practictioner. I got a script for Wellbutrin SR-150 mg x 1 instead of Ritalin and the same as last time for the buspirone and the .25 Xanax. I scrapped the Ritalin because I want to give the brand version/Wellbutrin another try. I called around pharmacies and can get 30 days' worth for $85 w/discounts (and patient asst.program which are not much of a discount). I cannot sustain that, and will most likely need more than 150 mg/day after this month, but I just have to know if wellbutrin will work for me again. The best I've been for years was while taking that. If it doesn't work like once before, I'll go back to the Ritalin. The Ritalin long term is not good for your thyroid. My thyroid tests were irregular, but I can't afford to go back to that doc. Anyway, I'm lucky the NP said she wouldn't charge me to come back in 2 weeks for a quick visit to see how the Wellbutrin is working out. About the dopamine--I am not longing for my ex bf at all. I've gotten over that. However, I was thinking in terms of what I read about drug addiction. When your brain is flooded with elevated levels of dopamine, then you subsequently discontinue the 'drug', your baseline dopamine levels drop to below normal because your brain has adapted to the continual flood of dopamine. I think because after exposing my brain to such high levels of dopamine for years, and I mean I felt that way severeal times a day or much of the day on most days, that I now have the brain of a former drug addict. I was literally high all the time--but there were times where I wouldn't see him for a year, or a few months here and there, over an 8-9 year time period. I've had relationships with others, most shorter than with my ex bf, but never felt high all the time except for maybe the 6-12 honeymoon period that most people get when they first fall in love. At least that's what I concluded after reading up on drug addiction and dopamine, but its just a guess from how little I know I suppose. I am very impressed with this study and doc: http://jnm.snmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/45/11/13N.pdf I read it can take 2 years for your brain and dopamine levels to get back to normal after a drug addiction. ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 12, 2009, at 14:20:25 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower, posted by Garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 14:01:31 > Desolation, > > You are always helpful so don't say that. :)) > > I just got back from my PDoc appt. After not seeing him for over a year then for the initial visit 30 days ago, I was already turned over to the Nurse Practictioner. I got a script for Wellbutrin SR-150 mg x 1 instead of Ritalin and the same as last time for the buspirone and the .25 Xanax. I scrapped the Ritalin because I want to give the brand version/Wellbutrin another try. I called around pharmacies and can get 30 days' worth for$85 w/discounts (and patient asst.program which are not much of a discount). I cannot sustain that, and will most likely need more than 150 mg/day after this month, but I just have to know if wellbutrin will work for me again. The best I've been for years was while taking that. If it doesn't work like once before, I'll go back to the Ritalin. The Ritalin long term is not good for your thyroid. My thyroid tests were irregular, but I can't afford to go back to that doc. Anyway, I'm lucky the NP said she wouldn't charge me to come back in 2 weeks for a quick visit to see how the Wellbutrin is working out.
>
> About the dopamine--I am not longing for my ex bf at all. I've gotten over that. However, I was thinking in terms of what I read about drug addiction. When your brain is flooded with elevated levels of dopamine, then you subsequently discontinue the 'drug', your baseline dopamine levels drop to below normal because your brain has adapted to the continual flood of dopamine. I think because after exposing my brain to such high levels of dopamine for years, and I mean I felt that way severeal times a day or much of the day on most days, that I now have the brain of a former drug addict. I was literally high all the time--but there were times where I wouldn't see him for a year, or a few months here and there, over an 8-9 year time period. I've had relationships with others, most shorter than with my ex bf, but never felt high all the time except for maybe the 6-12 honeymoon period that most people get when they first fall in love.
>
> At least that's what I concluded after reading up on drug addiction and dopamine, but its just a guess from how little I know I suppose.
>
> I am very impressed with this study and doc:
>
> http://jnm.snmjournals.org/cgi/reprint/45/11/13N.pdf
>
> I read it can take 2 years for your brain and dopamine levels to get back to normal after a drug addiction.
>

Hi, I can absolutely not tell, whether your theory is correct or not, but perhaps you can try Amino acids like Tyrosine, phenlyaline and vigourous exercise to try and get your catchlomines going until figure out a Pmed solution?

Posted by garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 14:54:49

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 12, 2009, at 14:20:25

Alexander,

Thanks for the advice. I found a very useful list of natural dopamine supporters:

But I don't know if I should start the Wellbutrin or start one of these, or both. If I start both at the same time, I won't know what is working for me or not-and it could take weeks of taking each one seperately to determine which one has a positive effect.

I think with Wellbutrin, I won't be taking a gamble because I should know in 2 weeks. For the amino acids or supplements-it could take a year of experimenting with each one seperately, or I could take a chance and take several at once.

I do know I need to be stabilized before I go back to grad school in the summer. I also know how important the exercise is but can't get back into the routine yet. I used to run 20 miles a week, not for years though, and I am so overwhelmed with everything i have to catch up on starting from about Oct./Nov. when I started becoming incapacitated from Zoloft, then Dec. when I did absolutely nothing for a month until I finally quit taking it a couple of months ago only to follow with a near mental breakdown from panic attacks. I am trying to finish a thesis that I had 6 months to do but didn't along with other classes for UG, am way behind, and lots of other things including trying to prepare and fix up my house to sell since I can't sustain the mortgage any longer. I'm eating at least 10 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, but can't get myself to exercise. The Ritalin improves my motivation about 50% from where I was with the Zoloft. I don't know what to do.

Now that my anxiety has been under control, I can clearly see the dopamine issue. It's really hard to know what's going on with mood and everything else when you are in a state of panic and anxiety.

thanks for writing, I know others are way worse off then me, so I feel as if I'm ranting or something. I am just so overwhelmed. I used to be the most decisive person..but now can't make decisions.

BTW-I heard that people from Denmark are the happiest in the world :)) Is that true?

Posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 17:17:22

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower, posted by Garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 14:01:31

well theres a lot going into the 'neurotoxicity' of stimulants, and the very high dose is one those things.

you do sound like attention problems now, but what it sounds like before, is maybe hyperthymic personality, with some drops into depression, and the anxiety/attention problems at the same time? i guess if you are having panic attacks, i probably would want to go on an antidepressant, i mean i think parnate is great. how much did the ritalin help with anger, impulsivity, things like that?

as far as supplements, i sort of generaly divide between what is missing in my diet, and so is mostly stuff i think everyone should take, and then a few other things, mostly herbs, that are more like pharmaceuticals, to create unusual brain levels of something, hopefully to do somethign good like reduce anxiety or something. so, if you have any nutritional questions, go ahead, but waht i have, along with food, is

vitamin d3
vitamin k2
magnesium
fish oil
melatonin (i sort of think of this as a vitamin, in that if you have electric all that lite is causing too little production in the late evening)
b-complex
zinc

so it might depend on what you eat, i have some milk everyday so i don't bother with calcium.
i've mentioned those a lot, but you know feel free to ask, obviously they aren't all a strong as some parnate, but unlike other things its not going to interact, so i guess its just how much to spend to get the last few tweaks. oh you got some stuff. flax oil is ok, although fish oil is a bit better. somethign like kava or valerian, would be used like a benzo, probably once or twice a week. not sure whats in rescue remedy. rho i forget exactly waht it does. gla is weird, i'm not sure its quite figured out why it seems to be antiinflammatory

as far as something else, i guess i am most interested in st johns wort or magnolia bark, but i wouldn't be too confident there isn't some possiblitiy of an interaction.

i might ahve said something about blame, personal responsibility/mental illness, narcicists, in/extroversion, but thinking about serious topics makes me want to write long nuanced meanderings

-d/r

## Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 18:53:40

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 12, 2009, at 17:17:22

D/R-you are a such a sweetie :)) I'm in the mood to figure this all out, so I hope you don't mind if I post more stuff. If you don't answer that's ok...i really miss having a therapist..but especially need to figure this out..it's the right time. I think my treatment depends upon a correct diagnosis-and I really never get a straight one-usually GAD or depression NOS.

"maybe hyperthymic personality, with some drops into depression, and the anxiety/attention problems at the same time?"

I can see some of that in me for sure. But it still doesn't fit--just like everything else doesn't fit. Esp. because when I was growing up, I was very shy, pleasant, and quiet (according to mom), started school when I was 4...Dad was very abusive and childhood was miserable, but I was a little adult-no one had to pay any attention to me or take care of me. I even started working when I was 10 and paid for all my own clothes after that. I don't think mom wanted anything \to do with being a mom.

My dad really tormented me out of all 3 of us and I never understood why but just that my mom watched and did nothing but when he left would say "i don't know why he picks on you all the time", meaning more than my bro and sis. People who are mean always seem to want to break me down for some reason. It's happened a few times here and there. It's like they are angry they don't upset me or break my spirit. I'd encountered a few bosses and coworkers who were so jealous of me even though I was very nice to them, and always went out of my way to help them and train them, and a good worker. So i do get to some people somehow but I'm talking about mean jealous people.

But when I turned 12, I started hanging out w/my bipolor sis and her friends and ditched my geeky friends and hung out with older guys. We jumped out of the bedroom window onto pine trees to sneak out many nights because Dad wouldn't let us do anything, have friends over or go anywhere. We snuck the car out-put it in neutral and pushed it down the hill and started it up while coasting down the hill..lol. It's not her fault; it just signified a change in me. So I don't know if I became sort of a thrill seeker then, but I was still the quiet and shy one among any group I was with and my friends all liked drugs, not me too much, but I drank..I do think I have alchoholic tendancies..Sis and I became juvenielle delinquents. Then I turned 16, got pregnant and kicked out of the house. All of the sudden I became a type A person and worked full time, got myself an associates degree, became a new mom, took care of son's fathers kids all before 18, and was goal-driven ever since. Ditched all the drug using or dysfunctional friends for the most part, but kept some phone relationships but I'd end up trying to help them straighten their lives out and gave up. I actually had no one aobut this time, until I started befriending older moms in the neighborhood a few years later.

so if I went from quiet/shy, to Type A/highly confident, now to low self esteem and somewhat dysthmic, I wonder if it fits the bipolar type II or the hyperthymic--or it could be partyl the stress response like what Scott posted about above. I went back and reread it. The chronic stress in relation to the anxiety issues.

But the thing is, my current state didn't happen until narcissist guy, just like the change with pregnancy and total freedom and independence was the milestone from quiet/shy to type A. So I'm leaning towards this: It could be that I just ignored all my childhood issues by being goal driven and busy all the time, sort of like a workaholic, then relationship with N guy unearthed all the childhood abuse issues I never dealt with, so I got depression and PTSD, which was my first diagnosis.

Anyway, the Buspirone is controlling the anxiety, but so did SSRIs but they took away any pleasure and motivation...soon as I quit Zoloft, I felt much better moodwise..the Ritalin helps but only 50% and the .25 Xanax at night does help me sleep. I got 15 pills of the Wellbutrin script filld today for $40. If the Wellbutrin doesn't work, I'm going to try the SJW, but also maybe just pick 2 amino acids from that list I posted, along with a couple of the vitamins you suggested. I'm pretty up on nutrition as far as food, and with all the fruits and vegaetables nuts and seeds and proteins, don't think I need too many vitamins. Am taking the D script, need to get the K. I do think the melatonin is something i need to check into. Last I took it though, I started getting racing thoughts coincided with panic-this was a whole new symptom for me just a few weeks ago before I started meds again. That scared me a way from the melatonin. As far as being angry, I think part of the problem is that I didn't get angry for so many years. Just sort of ignored it which is very unhealthy. I do get irritated-do you mean like being annoyed that so many people have those Sunoco bumper stickers on their cars? I hate that. I do get irritated now, with people I guess. Ritalin helps with impuslivity but really no anger issues. Impulisivty has been a long-tem problem--I used to make a lot of decisions w/o thinking anythign through, way too spontaneous, but I'm more cautious now and plan things before decisions are made. I think I have developed major self-esteem problems since N guy too and feel sometimes I'm a victim of myself-that the depression and anxiety is actually causing self-esteem issues rather than the other way around. I have been working fish oil and flax oil into my diet, but am uncomfortable with self-medicating with herbs and supplments for the most part, especially kava. I have no confidence in treating myself. I wonder about the catchemones are whatever they are called, that Alexander posted about before. I guess that's the question I would ask you. > i might ahve said something about blame, personal responsibility/mental illness, narcicists, in/extroversion, but thinking about serious topics makes me want to write long nuanced meanderings > > -d/r I'd certainly listen to your views on that too! I guess that's it for my attempt at self diagnosis and treatment. It's apparent I've had 3 personalities in my lifetime, and major shifts conincided with environmental changes. Can't wait for the 4th one to emerge. ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 13, 2009, at 14:57:08 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 14:54:49 Now Danish people definitly arent the happiest people in the world. However things are not bad in Denmark. But Denmark is spiritually vacant and we have very high percentage of Depression and stress related problem. However things in Denmark are stable and secure, which really benefits fits the population in general ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine » Alexanderfromdenmark Posted by Garnet71 on March 13, 2009, at 17:23:32 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 13, 2009, at 14:57:08 I know very little about the culture, but was referring to studies like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7487143.stm "Denmark 'world's happiest nation' Denmark is the happiest country in the world, according to the latest World Values Survey published by the United States National Science Foundation. " The closest place to Denmark I've ever been was Germany, but would like to visit the country someday and see about happiness :)) What do you mean spiritually vacant? Please explain. ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine » Alexanderfromdenmark Posted by Garnet71 on March 13, 2009, at 17:32:58 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 13, 2009, at 14:57:08 Would you happen to have a recipe to a yogurt-based salad dressing that is very popular around Germany? No matter where in Germany I went, the salads had a very similar dressing. It was a white yogurt dressing, and very mild. I never could replicate it or find a recipe. Any idea? ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 14, 2009, at 12:47:44 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by Garnet71 on March 13, 2009, at 17:23:32 > I know very little about the culture, but was referring to studies like this: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7487143.stm > > "Denmark 'world's happiest nation' > > Denmark is the happiest country in the world, according to the latest World Values Survey published by the United States National Science Foundation. " > > The closest place to Denmark I've ever been was Germany, but would like to visit the country someday and see about happiness :)) > > What do you mean spiritually vacant? Please explain. > All i can say about that study is "DIG DEEPER!!" :) By spiritually vacant I mean Denmark is the most secular country in world and many "spiritual" virtues are downplayed. The danish way of relaxing is binge-drinking. Which is good every now and then, but often its to often here. Or perhaps I've just grown up with alcholic friends :) However things are good in Denmark in many ways. it's a great country and Im' very fortunate to live here. I can't help you with the german yoghurt, however if you ever feel like dropping by you can crash on our couch or matress or something :) About your theory - Have you though about getting a new lover/boyfriend? I'm sure you have of course, but your theory is a little crazy :) Hows Wellbutrin working out? ## Re: Addicted to Dopamine Posted by desolationrower on March 15, 2009, at 0:44:50 In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower, posted by garnet71 on March 12, 2009, at 18:53:40 > D/R-you are a such a sweetie :)) I'm in the mood to figure this all out, so I hope you don't mind if I post more stuff. If you don't answer that's ok...i really miss having a therapist..but especially need to figure this out..it's the right time. I think my treatment depends upon a correct diagnosis-and I really never get a straight one-usually GAD or depression NOS. well, i think its good to keep thinking about it, but keep in mind there may not really be a 'right' answer. you just have the unique problems of garnet. the DSM categories heterogenous and kind of made up anyway. I think not looking at specific symptoms hold back usefulness of drug research. although i sort of have it guessed out in my head what all my symptoms/personality map to as far as neurotransmitters/circuits etc. maybe you could do taht too, though it could be a big waste of time. > "maybe hyperthymic personality, with some drops into depression, and the anxiety/attention problems at the same time?" > > That was interesting since I've never heard about this. I did find where someone posted 3 articles about hyperthymic: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=4416 > > I can see some of that in me for sure. But it still doesn't fit--just like everything else doesn't fit. Esp. because when I was growing up, I was very shy, pleasant, and quiet (according to mom), started school when I was 4...Dad was very abusive and childhood was miserable, but I was a little adult-no one had to pay any attention to me or take care of me. I even started working when I was 10 and paid for all my own clothes after that. I don't think mom wanted anything \to do with being a mom. > > My dad really tormented me out of all 3 of us and I never understood why but just that my mom watched and did nothing but when he left would say "i don't know why he picks on you all the time", meaning more than my bro and sis. People who are mean always seem to want to break me down for some reason. It's happened a few times here and there. It's like they are angry they don't upset me or break my spirit. I'd encountered a few bosses and coworkers who were so jealous of me even though I was very nice to them, and always went out of my way to help them and train them, and a good worker. So i do get to some people somehow but I'm talking about mean jealous people. well if you want to hear from the therapist: sounds like you try to understand other people's actions as being caused by you. but other people have their whole own world of reasons and thinking, and to the extent you affect it, it isn't YOU, its their poor understand of you. trying to understand the reason evertying happens will give you crazy anxiety. > But when I turned 12, I started hanging out w/my bipolor sis and her friends and ditched my geeky friends and hung out with older guys. We jumped out of the bedroom window onto pine trees to sneak out many nights because Dad wouldn't let us do anything, have friends over or go anywhere. We snuck the car out-put it in neutral and pushed it down the hill and started it up while coasting down the hill..lol. It's not her fault; it just signified a change in me. So I don't know if I became sort of a thrill seeker then, but I was still the quiet and shy one among any group I was with and my friends all liked drugs, not me too much, but I drank..I do think I have alchoholic tendancies..Sis and I became juvenielle delinquents. Then I turned 16, got pregnant and kicked out of the house. All of the sudden I became a type A person and worked full time, got myself an associates degree, became a new mom, took care of son's fathers kids all before 18, and was goal-driven ever since. Ditched all the drug using or dysfunctional friends for the most part, but kept some phone relationships but I'd end up trying to help them straighten their lives out and gave up. I actually had no one aobut this time, until I started befriending older moms in the neighborhood a few years later. > > so if I went from quiet/shy, to Type A/highly confident, now to low self esteem and somewhat dysthmic, I wonder if it fits the bipolar type II or the hyperthymic--or it could be partyl the stress response like what Scott posted about above. I went back and reread it. The chronic stress in relation to the anxiety issues. > > But the thing is, my current state didn't happen until narcissist guy, just like the change with pregnancy and total freedom and independence was the milestone from quiet/shy to type A. So I'm leaning towards this: It could be that I just ignored all my childhood issues by being goal driven and busy all the time, sort of like a workaholic, then relationship with N guy unearthed all the childhood abuse issues I never dealt with, so I got depression and PTSD, which was my first diagnosis. > > Anyway, the Buspirone is controlling the anxiety, but so did SSRIs but they took away any pleasure and motivation...soon as I quit Zoloft, I felt much better moodwise..the Ritalin helps but only 50% and the .25 Xanax at night does help me sleep. I got 15 pills of the Wellbutrin script filld today for$40. If the Wellbutrin doesn't work, I'm going to try the SJW, but also maybe just pick 2 amino acids from that list I posted, along with a couple of the vitamins you suggested. I'm pretty up on nutrition as far as food, and with all the fruits and vegaetables nuts and seeds and proteins, don't think I need too many vitamins. Am taking the D script, need to get the K. I do think the melatonin is something i need to check into. Last I took it though, I started getting racing thoughts coincided with panic-this was a whole new symptom for me just a few weeks ago before I started meds again. That scared me a way from the melatonin.

well, don't use something if it doesn't work for you.

> As far as being angry, I think part of the problem is that I didn't get angry for so many years. Just sort of ignored it which is very unhealthy. I do get irritated-do you mean like being annoyed that so many people have those Sunoco bumper stickers on their cars? I hate that. I do get irritated now, with people I guess. Ritalin helps with impuslivity but really no anger issues. Impulisivty has been a long-tem problem--I used to make a lot of decisions w/o thinking anythign through, way too spontaneous, but I'm more cautious now and plan things before decisions are made. I think I have developed major self-esteem problems since N guy too and feel sometimes I'm a victim of myself-that the depression and anxiety is actually causing self-esteem issues rather than the other way around.

hm. yeah, it doesn't sound too much like adhd is the main problem. actually you sound pretty resiliant, maybe its a good idea to just work your way back to normal without too much drug work.

> I have been working fish oil and flax oil into my diet, but am uncomfortable with self-medicating with herbs and supplments for the most part, especially kava. I have no confidence in treating myself. I wonder about the catchemones are whatever they are called, that Alexander posted about before. I guess that's the question I would ask you.

well...you'll have to actually ask a question then, not just tell your entertaining stories :)

> > i might ahve said something about blame, personal responsibility/mental illness, narcicists, in/extroversion, but thinking about serious topics makes me want to write long nuanced meanderings
> >
> > -d/r
>
> I'd certainly listen to your views on that too!

heh, but then i'd have to think too much. but i have trouble avoiding these things altogether. alright, i guess the thing i think is important to keep in mind is that our actions are most just about us. we react to other people, but we are mostly communicating who we are, what we believe, what we think was an offense against us, what we will retaliate against if done again, what we like in others, etc. probably especially important wrt narcicists: they have their own world they have made, and really don't give a sh*t what anyone else really thinks. Ok, also, having multiple emotions towards people, like sympathy because of waht one is going through, and dislike for sh*tty thigns someone does. really, most people who are pricks have also had it rough. its easy to be generous and caring and everything when you're always got good luck. we hold others responsible not because they have some ultimate free will, but because holding them responsible empowers them and is required if we respect them as people (the sort of basic respect anyone deserves). i guess this all come from my general personality. i'm quite cynical, but cheerful. we're all both good and evil, often they are the same thing. bad things happen because humans have human nature, and institutions work based on that, and instiutions as least can be changed. i see systematic causes for most things; fundamental attribution error is really important - but i think the good and beautiful are things we create by observing and acting and appreciating. so i don't really get angry, ever. maybe if i knew what sunoco stickers meant, i would get angry about that. i guess i also end up thinking of otehr people as out of my control, i should focus on what actions i can change to get what i want. my therapist has said i should just expect others to do more of the work. see, wtf was the thesis of this?

> I guess that's it for my attempt at self diagnosis and treatment. It's apparent I've had 3 personalities in my lifetime, and major shifts conincided with environmental changes. Can't wait for the 4th one to emerge.
>
>

-d/r

## Re: Addicted to Dopamine » desolationrower

Posted by garnet71 on April 18, 2009, at 23:28:29

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 15, 2009, at 0:44:50

I haven't come back to this post for personal reasons, but am glad I checked. I got a great laugh out of it--This has to be the most amusing reponse I've ever read on this forum. d/r - you made my day when I got to that last sentence...LOL

>>>

heh, but then i'd have to think too much. but i have trouble avoiding these things altogether. alright, i guess the thing i think is important to keep in mind is that our actions are most just about us. we react to other people, but we are mostly communicating who we are, what we believe, what we think was an offense against us, what we will retaliate against if done again, what we like in others, etc. probably especially important wrt narcicists: they have their own world they have made, and really don't give a sh*t what anyone else really thinks. Ok, also, having multiple emotions towards people, like sympathy because of waht one is going through, and dislike for sh*tty thigns someone does. really, most people who are pricks have also had it rough. its easy to be generous and caring and everything when you're always got good luck. we hold others responsible not because they have some ultimate free will, but because holding them responsible empowers them and is required if we respect them as people (the sort of basic respect anyone deserves). i guess this all come from my general personality. i'm quite cynical, but cheerful. we're all both good and evil, often they are the same thing. bad things happen because humans have human nature, and institutions work based on that, and instiutions as least can be changed. i see systematic causes for most things; fundamental attribution error is really important - but i think the good and beautiful are things we create by observing and acting and appreciating. so i don't really get angry, ever. maybe if i knew what sunoco stickers meant, i would get angry about that. i guess i also end up thinking of otehr people as out of my control, i should focus on what actions i can change to get what i want. my therapist has said i should just expect others to do more of the work. see, wtf was the thesis of this?

Posted by garnet71 on May 6, 2009, at 18:58:09

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 14, 2009, at 12:47:44

What I read about those "happiness" studies (and there are detailed survey questions posted online throught the European Economic Development Cooperation something...something I forget) was that Danes have a huge safety net, less stress, free school? I guess less worries...

That was interesting what you said about spirituality/religion in Denmark. Maybe religion brings people together; allows a certain type of intimacy; connection. Years ago, in following the trends in Sweden out of curiousity, I noticed that 50 percent or something (terrible with numbers..lol) of Swedes no longer marry, regardless of their decision to have children. They had the lowest marriage rate in Europe.

I also noticed that sometime after WWII, European policies were aimed at population growth--so childbearing benefits proliferated--but what was contraversial at the time was that for perhaps the first time, benefits were awarded to those mothers who did not marry. It wasn't benevolent, out of the goodness of society--it was to encourage population growth - which was for economic reasons.

Well I wasn't finished but my son wants to use this computer!

Posted by garnet71 on May 6, 2009, at 20:21:32

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 15, 2009, at 0:44:50

> well, i think its good to keep thinking about it, but keep in mind there may not really be I think not looking at specific symptoms hold back usefulness of drug research. although i sort of have it guessed out in my head what all my symptoms/personality map to as far as neurotransmitters/circuits etc. maybe you could do taht too, though it could be a big waste of time.
>

lol-will you map out my symptoms/personality/ transmitters/circuits?? I bet you have a mathematical formula/model that somehow ties it all together too.

>
> well if you want to hear from the therapist: sounds like you try to understand other people's actions as being caused by you. but other people have their whole own world of reasons and thinking, and to the extent you affect it, it isn't YOU, its their poor understand of you. trying to understand the reason evertying happens will give you crazy anxiety.
>
>

Cause and effect can explain a lot actually, and no I don't believe actions of others are caused by me, in a literal sense. But- People have motivations and incentives. There are dynamics between 2 individuals; you can't just seperate yourself from relationships. Our lives revolve around relationships, do they not? It takes 2 to form an interaction to begin with...It's not about "understanding" as much as it is dynamics (my fav word of the day). Thoughts > emotions > influences > experiences > motivations > actions. Actions resulting from all those variables are played out in relationships; another's psyche does play a role in how they relate to me/you/us.

>
> heh, but then i'd have to think too much. but i have trouble avoiding these things altogether. alright, i guess the thing i think is important to keep in mind is that our actions are most just about us. we react to other people, but we are mostly communicating who we are, what we believe, what we think was an offense against us, what we will retaliate against if done again, what we like in others, etc.
>

Nope - does not translate into abuse of others. You can't say an innocent individual - say a child - is responsible for being abused because they were communicating who they are, what he/she believed, and what a child THINKS is an offense against him/her (attribution) etc. It doesn't explain it what happened - at all. that alone discredits your whole argument. : ) have you ever been abused?

>> probably especially important wrt narcicists: they have their own world they have made, and really don't give a sh*t what anyone else really thinks. Ok, also, having multiple emotions towards people, like sympathy because of waht one is going through, and dislike for sh*tty thigns someone does. really, most people who are pricks have also had it rough. its easy to be generous and caring and everything when you're always got good luck. we hold others responsible not because they have some ultimate free will, but because holding them responsible empowers them and is required if we respect them as people (the sort of basic respect anyone deserves).

No, my N ex bf had a good childhood. I'ts more about objectifying people (all sociopaths view people as objects). I know what you mean, though...others have it bad and take it out on others. I do see that a lot, and have sympathy for "mean" people..but the faulty logic in your statement (concerning naricissists) is that there is no way in hell they can be held responsible-there is no admission of wrongdoing, no feelings of remorse or guilt; everythign the narcissist does is the other person's 'fault'. That's what makes it so much more complicated. Normal people eventaully realize why they did what they did....their own personal role...a narcissist projects anything and everything \on others...I would not expect anyone who has not been in a relationship with a narcissist to ever understand. They won't. You just had to have been there to understand - at all. It wasn't until I had an experienced PhD for a psychologist/therpaist - one who had personally experienced the dynamics of interacting with such people-that I got any meaningful understanding from a mental health professional. This is a long story....But aside from that, narcissists are soo predictable once you figure out the psyche involved....it's not easy to figure out in the first place, however. But there is no holding a narcissist 'responsible' if they can't even acknowledge their actions. Narcissists do nothing wrong-ever. It's all denial and projection. Lack of ability to even have empathy. Not having empathy means attribution cannot explain much.

>> i guess this all come from my general personality. i'm quite cynical, but cheerful. we're all both good and evil, often they are the same thing. bad things happen because humans have human nature, and institutions work based on that, and instiutions as least can be changed. i see systematic causes for most things; fundamental attribution error is really important - but i think the good and beautiful are things we create by observing and acting and appreciating. so i don't really get angry, ever.

Actually, I believe cynisism can be a manifestation of anger; related to attribution theory is that everything is derived from only a handful of emotions; anger being one of the main culprits. If you don't get angry "ever" I would say you are not acknowledging your anger; but instead, letting it manifest in other ways that are probably not known to you--including directing it at yourself. I don't think there is a human being alive who does not feel anger....(how can you believe you don't experience anger?????) but you can dissassociate oneself from it--which perverts it--it will manifest in periphial ways that are unhealthy....Attribution does not explain everything. I agree with you about the systematic/institutions - definitely. But you know I'm cheerful too :-) And yes, we create the good and beautiful...from our own influnces/psyche.

>>>maybe if i knew what sunoco stickers meant, i would get angry about that.

Ok so I should clarify about sunoco (an oil company) stickers..lol. Many people around here (i live in the NE) have Sunoco stickers on their car. I thought-why would anyone want to advertise for sunoco (unless you worked there I suppose)? The only conclusion that made sense was that some coporate Sunoco Car drives around, occaisionally giving free fuel to people who have the sticker on their car...I just can't understand why anyone would want to put a sunoco bumper sticker on their car--wtf?? It's sort of a stamp to show what you think is important...again, wtf!

>>>i guess i also end up thinking of otehr people as out of my control, i should focus on what actions i can change to get what i want. my therapist has said i should just expect others to do more of the work. see, wtf was the thesis of this?
>

yes, others and their emotions are outside of one's control--but the foundation of our lives is relationships--you can't act as a seperate being....thinking allowing others to be responsible for their own emotions - and stopping it short of letting it go there - only disconnects you from others. And while attribution explains a lot about our perception and communication, it does not adequately explain dynamics. There's a lot more to it than that. I agree with focusing on what WE can control, but you can't seperate the cause/effect, and treat a relationship as a composition of 2 seperate variables. But focusing more on what you can change (about yourself), like you said, is very positive, imo. But it doesn't stop the quest in understanding the why's how's what's of your past.

And WTF is my thesis? I forget the whole point of this conversation! lol

Posted by garnet71 on May 6, 2009, at 20:32:30

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by desolationrower on March 15, 2009, at 0:44:50

Hey-and if you go around thinking "oh I'll just let other people take responsibility for their own emotions and that's that..." you will only disconnect yourself from people! With any relationship YOU are involved with their emotions. By not acknowledging your own role, by just allocating everything to the other person, you are basically implying there IS no relationship....cutting yourself off from other people in your life...and going your own way.. Not good. (!)

Posted by desolationrower on May 15, 2009, at 6:15:20

In reply to Re: Addicted to Dopamine, posted by garnet71 on May 6, 2009, at 20:21:32

-d/r

This is the end of the thread.

Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, dr-bob@uchicago.edu

Script revised: October 4, 2007
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl