Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 799425

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Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-shok-

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2008, at 19:09:09

In reply to Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts Jamal Spelling, posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2008, at 15:23:54

> > Do you have any thoughts on who, or what, the 666 that is described in the Bible, refers to? And, the mark of the animal?
>
> Jamal,
> You wrote,[...who, what...666...mark...?]
> Jamal,
> I can tie in all of what we have been discussing concerning the Lake of Fire, hell, and the original topic that was [...what the bible says or doesn't say about suicide...].
> The book called Revelation is a book penned by a Jew that was intended for at least Jewish readers so that the symbolism in the book could possibly be recognizable by Jews from their teachings from their sacred writings. As a Jew, I understand the symbols and could tell you of the meanings of the symbols from a Jew's perspective.
> In your wanting to know about [...his mark will be 666...], a Jew could understand that in light of the Jew's understanding of that the letters in the Hebrew alphabet are given numbers. Numbers also denote meanings in the Hebrew. The number 1 means {Union}...4 means {Creation}...6 means {man as only flesh, [carnal man]}...7 means {perfection or completness} { creation in 7 days}...13 means {rebellion or sin}...33 is a {promise}...144 I will explain later as it is used in the book called Revelation. There are many more.
> With this understanding, Jews could know what the 666 symbol could be. There are also verses from the Jew's scriptures that could also lead to an understanding. In the book called Deuteronomy, in chapter 29 verse 29, we read;
> [...the secret things belong to God; those things revealed belong to us...]
> Lou

Jamal,
In response to your interest and question, I can tie in all that we have been discussing here concerning The Lake of Fire, hell, Masonry and Solomn's Temple. Years ago, I had posted here that what I could post about could be shocking.
I have talked here about Masonry and stones and The Temple of Solomon. And we now are in discussion about what John, a Jew , meant in that ,[...the number of man....666...]in the book called Revelation. As a Jew, I can relate to the symbolism that John wrote about while he was in Spirit.
Let us now go to Solomon's Temple and Solomon. A Jew versed in their scriptures could read 666 in two places, one in the book called 1 Kings chapter 10 verse 14,
[...now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold...] (about 50,000 pounds). The same verse is in a book called 2 Chronicles.
Jews could be aware of much more concerning Solomon here. But John's writing of 666 to a Jew could cause them to be directed to Solomon, for the reference to 666 does not have another parallel in the Jews scriptures. I will say more about Solomon and connect the Beasts that Danial referr to and what has been revealed to me concerning the symbols used in the book called Revelation.
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-Lkof Fir

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 18, 2008, at 20:33:32

In reply to Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-shok-, posted by Lou Pilder on January 17, 2008, at 19:09:09

> > > Do you have any thoughts on who, or what, the 666 that is described in the Bible, refers to? And, the mark of the animal?
> >
> > Jamal,
> > You wrote,[...who, what...666...mark...?]
> > Jamal,
> > I can tie in all of what we have been discussing concerning the Lake of Fire, hell, and the original topic that was [...what the bible says or doesn't say about suicide...].
> > The book called Revelation is a book penned by a Jew that was intended for at least Jewish readers so that the symbolism in the book could possibly be recognizable by Jews from their teachings from their sacred writings. As a Jew, I understand the symbols and could tell you of the meanings of the symbols from a Jew's perspective.
> > In your wanting to know about [...his mark will be 666...], a Jew could understand that in light of the Jew's understanding of that the letters in the Hebrew alphabet are given numbers. Numbers also denote meanings in the Hebrew. The number 1 means {Union}...4 means {Creation}...6 means {man as only flesh, [carnal man]}...7 means {perfection or completness} { creation in 7 days}...13 means {rebellion or sin}...33 is a {promise}...144 I will explain later as it is used in the book called Revelation. There are many more.
> > With this understanding, Jews could know what the 666 symbol could be. There are also verses from the Jew's scriptures that could also lead to an understanding. In the book called Deuteronomy, in chapter 29 verse 29, we read;
> > [...the secret things belong to God; those things revealed belong to us...]
> > Lou
>
> Jamal,
> In response to your interest and question, I can tie in all that we have been discussing here concerning The Lake of Fire, hell, Masonry and Solomn's Temple. Years ago, I had posted here that what I could post about could be shocking.
> I have talked here about Masonry and stones and The Temple of Solomon. And we now are in discussion about what John, a Jew , meant in that ,[...the number of man....666...]in the book called Revelation. As a Jew, I can relate to the symbolism that John wrote about while he was in Spirit.
> Let us now go to Solomon's Temple and Solomon. A Jew versed in their scriptures could read 666 in two places, one in the book called 1 Kings chapter 10 verse 14,
> [...now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold...] (about 50,000 pounds). The same verse is in a book called 2 Chronicles.
> Jews could be aware of much more concerning Solomon here. But John's writing of 666 to a Jew could cause them to be directed to Solomon, for the reference to 666 does not have another parallel in the Jews scriptures. I will say more about Solomon and connect the Beasts that Danial referr to and what has been revealed to me concerning the symbols used in the book called Revelation.
> Lou

Jamal,
There is much more concerning your question about 666. Let us look at the verse in question in the book called Revelation chapter 13 verse 18
[...Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding {count the number} of the beast; for it is the number of (a) man; and his number is Six hundred, threescore and six...(666)].
Now there are two things here that are of significance. One is that there is that one is said to {count} the number of the beast.
In the Hebrew and Greek, each letter in the ancient alphabets were assigned numbers so that adding the values of each letter gave the word a numerical value. So when we examine a word to try to fit it into a value of 666, we do that according to an ancient list of values for each letter in the Hebrew and Greek. This verse in question was translated from the Greek.
Also, there is the part,[...for it is (a) number of a man...]. There is a question as to if that is the correct translation because the indefinite article (a), could be not there in the Greek and then the statement would read,[...for it is the number of man...] The number of man from the Hebrew is 6.
But Solomon had characteristics and a lore that Jews could know from their scriptures. He was one of the central figures in Judaism. He was a king, A Son of David.
So when Jews are directed to Solomon, there are many referrences for them to read about in their scriptures.
What there is to know concerns the character of Solomon, and his life. From that , we could have a better understanding of the significance of [...his number is 666...] . There is an identifacation of the word {in the bible} that sums its letter values to 666,and when it is revealed, then we could have a better understanding of what The Lake of Fire is, what death is and what the symbols in the book called Revelation mean .
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-Lkof Fir Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 18, 2008, at 23:15:51

In reply to Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-Lkof Fir, posted by Lou Pilder on January 18, 2008, at 20:33:32

Hi Lou (& all)!

I'd like to know more about this... it's an issue I've been studying, and since I'm not Jewish, I'm lacking in the inherent understanding that a Jew would have when reading this highly symbolic, controversial, and (IMHO) misunderstood book. I'd love to be educated on your frame of reference, as I believe it would be enlightening and helpful in my own faith journey.

Thanks!

Shalom, Dena


"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

 

Lou's reply to Dena-mammon Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2008, at 17:17:05

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Jamal-thescrts-Lkof Fir Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 18, 2008, at 23:15:51

> Hi Lou (& all)!
>
> I'd like to know more about this... it's an issue I've been studying, and since I'm not Jewish, I'm lacking in the inherent understanding that a Jew would have when reading this highly symbolic, controversial, and (IMHO) misunderstood book. I'd love to be educated on your frame of reference, as I believe it would be enlightening and helpful in my own faith journey.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

Dena,
You wrote,[...I'd like to know...symbolic book...enlightening...helpful...journey...].
The book called Revelation was written in symbols. It was penned by John while he was in a spiritual condition, receiving what he penned by an angel from God as he writes in the first chapter.
It has been revealed to me that knowing the symbols could bring someone to be one with God. This condition then could be a spiritual condition supernatually outside of the human condition. The book of Revelation's symbols reveal the Human Condition, reveal the Kingdom of God, reveal how one can be one with God, reveal the destiny of man, and part of the symbolology is related to Solomon as understood by a Jew that was versed in their scriptures.
Let us look at the verses that the statement in question concerns starting with verse 16 of chapter 13.[...He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor,...to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one that has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man: His number is 666. Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000, having His Father's name written on their forheads...].
But let us first look at the start of this passage in,[...that no one may buy or sell...]
Here we have trading associated with the mark, 666. And Solomon had 666 talents of Gold. Now we have the riches of the world involved here.
Way back I had an encounter with a Rider on a White Horse. I remember Him saying to me, "Lou, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, and if you serve two masters, you could end up hating the one and loving the other. Think, Lou. If you serve the god of riches, can you serve your God?"
Those statements came into focus when I read the book called Revelation. In particular, but not limited to the aspects arrising out of the verses in question that directed me to the 666 talents of gold of Solomon. The books describing Solomon's life come into play in the book of Revelation.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-mammon Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 19, 2008, at 17:36:59

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-mammon Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 19, 2008, at 17:17:05

Lou, you wrote:

"Think, Lou. If you serve the god of riches, can you serve your God?"


A friend of mine has just written a book about this... he's brilliant (as I've surmised you are as well), and so much of what he's written is over my head... as is much of what you write...

I WANT to understand this more, I am an earnest and desperate seeker of Truth. I have questioned and put aside much of what I've been taught by traditional religion, and seek after what is True. I pray daily to not be led into deception, and/or to be taken out of whatever deception I've already been taught. I trust that I hear His voice, and that He will lead me.

I believe that if I seek Him with all my heart, He will be found...

I am wanting to understand you, and to discover what truth may be in the shocking things you are revealing.

I sense that you are doing so in a systematic way, so as to not be overly shocking, and cause us, your readers, to shut down our minds. I sense that you're also working hard to honor the guidelines given here on this forum, which can limit the way in which you can communicate.

Given all of that, Lou, I am yet frustrated that I am not catching on to what you're saying... I do not yet see the connections between the Masons (which, I must be honest, I have always been taught, by my former religious organization, was a group to be held in suspiscion... but I'm willing to question that as well, and to hear what you have to say).

Lou, I've known you for about 7 years now, through this forum and via email... and I've come to respect you, and to admire your integrity. But I must confess that I find your method of communication to be difficult to follow... and I so badly WANT to "get it".

I didn't have "ears to hear" 7 years ago, and I believe I do now. At least, better. Can you help me, and the others who may be like me, to understand what you're saying? Can you be more clear? Can you connect the dots?

I hope the intent of my heart comes through my words, Lou... for you are a friend, and I do want to learn, and to understand.

Shalom, Dena


"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

 

Lou's reply to Dena-bbyurarchmn2 Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 20, 2008, at 9:52:16

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-mammon Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 19, 2008, at 17:36:59

> Lou, you wrote:
>
> "Think, Lou. If you serve the god of riches, can you serve your God?"
>
>
> A friend of mine has just written a book about this... he's brilliant (as I've surmised you are as well), and so much of what he's written is over my head... as is much of what you write...
>
> I WANT to understand this more, I am an earnest and desperate seeker of Truth. I have questioned and put aside much of what I've been taught by traditional religion, and seek after what is True. I pray daily to not be led into deception, and/or to be taken out of whatever deception I've already been taught. I trust that I hear His voice, and that He will lead me.
>
> I believe that if I seek Him with all my heart, He will be found...
>
> I am wanting to understand you, and to discover what truth may be in the shocking things you are revealing.
>
> I sense that you are doing so in a systematic way, so as to not be overly shocking, and cause us, your readers, to shut down our minds. I sense that you're also working hard to honor the guidelines given here on this forum, which can limit the way in which you can communicate.
>
> Given all of that, Lou, I am yet frustrated that I am not catching on to what you're saying... I do not yet see the connections between the Masons (which, I must be honest, I have always been taught, by my former religious organization, was a group to be held in suspiscion... but I'm willing to question that as well, and to hear what you have to say).
>
> Lou, I've known you for about 7 years now, through this forum and via email... and I've come to respect you, and to admire your integrity. But I must confess that I find your method of communication to be difficult to follow... and I so badly WANT to "get it".
>
> I didn't have "ears to hear" 7 years ago, and I believe I do now. At least, better. Can you help me, and the others who may be like me, to understand what you're saying? Can you be more clear? Can you connect the dots?
>
> I hope the intent of my heart comes through my words, Lou... for you are a friend, and I do want to learn, and to understand.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

Dena,
You wrote,[...I want to understand...put aside...seek after...in a systematic way...not be led into deception and be tsken out of any deception...I hear...If I seek Him...not catching on...the Masons...difficult to follow...and I..want to get it..."ears to hear" ...now...can you help me...connect the dots...].
Dena,
The book called Revelation is a book of symbols. The symbols used by John, a Jew, were given to him as a revelation.
Let us look at the thirteenth chapter from verse one.
[..And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven head and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy...].
The symbols there have been revealed to me. There is {the sea} and {the sand} and {a beast}.
I have stood on that sand. I have seen the beast rise up out of the sea.
And going back to chapter one, verse 10 John pens,[...I was in Spirit...and heard behind me a great voice, as a trumpet saying "I am the Alpha and the Omega"...]. I stood on sand. I heard a voice like a trumpet. I saw the One that spoke. It was a warning. And it was a revelation. The rest of the book reveals the warning and the revelation that ties in what man is with the destiny of man and how one can Overcome.
But what of this beast? Why walking on the sand? What is the warning? What can one do?
The subject of 666 is symbolizing what we are talking about as one part of the major warning.
You see, Solomon was a rich man. Maybe the richest of all time. But what about this {beast}?
Let us look at the Hebrew scriptures in Ecclesiastes 3:18
[...I said in my heart concerning the condition of the sons of men, that God might test them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts...].
A test. A test to see that they are {beasts}.
The 666 is the number of all men. The number has a word from the scriptures that is revealed to be the {name} of man. I havn't written that word here yet, because you see that I am using a systematic way here.
You see, when I was walking on sand, I was lost. I did not know where I was. I do not think that John said that he knew where he was. I think that he was lost also. He saw the beast come out of the {sea}. The sea is a symbol. The beast is a symbol. The sand is a symbol. Readers are directed to Solomon. What is synbolic about Solomon? Maybe your a rich man to?
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-alwelkshphvgnasry

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 20, 2008, at 12:26:56

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-bbyurarchmn2 Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 20, 2008, at 9:52:16

> > Lou, you wrote:
> >
> > "Think, Lou. If you serve the god of riches, can you serve your God?"
> >
> >
> > A friend of mine has just written a book about this... he's brilliant (as I've surmised you are as well), and so much of what he's written is over my head... as is much of what you write...
> >
> > I WANT to understand this more, I am an earnest and desperate seeker of Truth. I have questioned and put aside much of what I've been taught by traditional religion, and seek after what is True. I pray daily to not be led into deception, and/or to be taken out of whatever deception I've already been taught. I trust that I hear His voice, and that He will lead me.
> >
> > I believe that if I seek Him with all my heart, He will be found...
> >
> > I am wanting to understand you, and to discover what truth may be in the shocking things you are revealing.
> >
> > I sense that you are doing so in a systematic way, so as to not be overly shocking, and cause us, your readers, to shut down our minds. I sense that you're also working hard to honor the guidelines given here on this forum, which can limit the way in which you can communicate.
> >
> > Given all of that, Lou, I am yet frustrated that I am not catching on to what you're saying... I do not yet see the connections between the Masons (which, I must be honest, I have always been taught, by my former religious organization, was a group to be held in suspiscion... but I'm willing to question that as well, and to hear what you have to say).
> >
> > Lou, I've known you for about 7 years now, through this forum and via email... and I've come to respect you, and to admire your integrity. But I must confess that I find your method of communication to be difficult to follow... and I so badly WANT to "get it".
> >
> > I didn't have "ears to hear" 7 years ago, and I believe I do now. At least, better. Can you help me, and the others who may be like me, to understand what you're saying? Can you be more clear? Can you connect the dots?
> >
> > I hope the intent of my heart comes through my words, Lou... for you are a friend, and I do want to learn, and to understand.
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
> >
> >
> > "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...I want to understand...put aside...seek after...in a systematic way...not be led into deception and be tsken out of any deception...I hear...If I seek Him...not catching on...the Masons...difficult to follow...and I..want to get it..."ears to hear" ...now...can you help me...connect the dots...].
> Dena,
> The book called Revelation is a book of symbols. The symbols used by John, a Jew, were given to him as a revelation.
> Let us look at the thirteenth chapter from verse one.
> [..And I stood upon the sand of the sea and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven head and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy...].
> The symbols there have been revealed to me. There is {the sea} and {the sand} and {a beast}.
> I have stood on that sand. I have seen the beast rise up out of the sea.
> And going back to chapter one, verse 10 John pens,[...I was in Spirit...and heard behind me a great voice, as a trumpet saying "I am the Alpha and the Omega"...]. I stood on sand. I heard a voice like a trumpet. I saw the One that spoke. It was a warning. And it was a revelation. The rest of the book reveals the warning and the revelation that ties in what man is with the destiny of man and how one can Overcome.
> But what of this beast? Why walking on the sand? What is the warning? What can one do?
> The subject of 666 is symbolizing what we are talking about as one part of the major warning.
> You see, Solomon was a rich man. Maybe the richest of all time. But what about this {beast}?
> Let us look at the Hebrew scriptures in Ecclesiastes 3:18
> [...I said in my heart concerning the condition of the sons of men, that God might test them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts...].
> A test. A test to see that they are {beasts}.
> The 666 is the number of all men. The number has a word from the scriptures that is revealed to be the {name} of man. I havn't written that word here yet, because you see that I am using a systematic way here.
> You see, when I was walking on sand, I was lost. I did not know where I was. I do not think that John said that he knew where he was. I think that he was lost also. He saw the beast come out of the {sea}. The sea is a symbol. The beast is a symbol. The sand is a symbol. Readers are directed to Solomon. What is synbolic about Solomon? Maybe your a rich man to?
> Lou

Dena,
The statement in the KJV of Rev 13:18 can be translated mor than one way. The KJV has it,[...for it is {the} number of (a) man...]
Other translations could be,[...for it is man's number...].
If the KJV translation is used, one can come up with many names that total 666 by what is known as{gematria}. You could either use the name in Hebrew or Greek and put titles in the name to have it total 666. .
But a {name} can be a descriptive name also. So the translation as {man's number} could be some name that describes all mankind, {both male and female}. In the book called revelation, a horse has the use of {description}. In chapter 6 verse 8 it reads,[...a pale horse and him that sat on him was Death...].
Looking at chapter 13 in verse 16 now, we read;
[...And he causes {all}, both small and great, rich and poor...to receive the mark in their right hand and their foreheads...].And then verse 17;
[...And that {no} man might buy or sell, save the mark of the beast, or the number of his name...].
This could be everybody? It says that {all} are to receive the mark in their right hand and their foreheads and {no man} might buy or sell...
Now if it is all that have the mark, then are we not talking here about all men? (all humanity).
I have not written here yet about the {right hand and forehead} yet.
IN Rev 7:3 we see;
[...Hurt not the earth...till we have sealed the servants of our God {>in< their foreheads}...]. Referring to the forehead of a person is generally a biblical metaphore for the {mind} of a person, being that it is {in} their forehead. I can tie this in with the verse that I cited previously here,[...to be carnally minded is death...].
As I walked on that sand, I was lost and saw the beast come out of the sea. Then a Rider on a White Horse appeard. I said to Him that I was lost. He answerd to me," Lou, did not Isaiah say, "All we like sheep have gone astray"?
Then the Rider said to me, "I will seek that which was lost and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick."
Lou



 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-alwelkshphvgnasry Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 20, 2008, at 23:27:20

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-alwelkshphvgnasry, posted by Lou Pilder on January 20, 2008, at 12:26:56

I have come to believe/understand, that the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic writing... not meant to be taken literally. It's meant to be mysterious unless one has eyes to see, and hears to hear.

How humorous, and even sad it is when some take it literally, and then we get such things as the "Left Behind" books and movies...

I used to take it literally myself, and the result of that was that I lived in fear...

I'm now coming to understand the generosity of God's mercy, and His lavish gift of atonement, that I believe now is far more-encompassing than I once was taught.

Does this list of letters in the subject line mean anything, Lou? "alwelkshphvgnasry" And I notice that there are other letters in the previous post...

Anyway, please continue, systematically, and I will continue to read, and pray that I have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-solwiz Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 9:59:18

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-alwelkshphvgnasry Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 20, 2008, at 23:27:20

> I have come to believe/understand, that the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic writing... not meant to be taken literally. It's meant to be mysterious unless one has eyes to see, and hears to hear.
>
> How humorous, and even sad it is when some take it literally, and then we get such things as the "Left Behind" books and movies...
>
> I used to take it literally myself, and the result of that was that I lived in fear...
>
> I'm now coming to understand the generosity of God's mercy, and His lavish gift of atonement, that I believe now is far more-encompassing than I once was taught.
>
> Does this list of letters in the subject line mean anything, Lou? "alwelkshphvgnasry" And I notice that there are other letters in the previous post...
>
> Anyway, please continue, systematically, and I will continue to read, and pray that I have eyes to see and ears to hear.
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...mysterious...lived in fear...far more-encompasing...notice other letters...please continue...]
The book called revelation is a book of symbols, for the book itself declares from the biginnng that it is. Let us lok at he first verse:
[...God gave to him (John}, to show..things..he sent and {signified} it by his angel to HIs servant, John...]. To {signify} is to show what a {sign} means. A sign is a symbol. The expression, [...an owl is a symbol of wisdom...] is an example of that the symbol of the owl is a sign used to represent wisdom. The owl when used in that case {signifies} wisdom. The owl then becomes a {symbol}.
When I walked on that sand, I turned when I heard a voice that spoke to me, and saw a Rider on a White Horse And I saw that in {His Right Hand}, he held seven stars. Those stars were not literal stars, for they were symbols, or signs, that represent something.
And when I saw Him, I fell as dead on the sand. He laid {His Right Hand} on me and said to me," Fear not. I am the first and the last. I am He that lives and was dead and marvel that I am alive now forever more. I have the keys to hell and death."
The He said to me," The symbols of the seven stars which you saw in My Right Hand are the seven angels of the seven congregations."
Then He said to me, "Lou, people traveled from all parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomom, and behold, one greter than Solomon is here."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-solwiz Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 21, 2008, at 18:55:16

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-solwiz Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 9:59:18

Ok, Lou... now you've got me with "solwiz"..! You're far too intentional to be playing a game, yet it's not beyond you to be dropping clues of some sort...

(unless it's some sort of code for you to keep track of what you're putting forth)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next installment from you ...

Did He elaborate on "I have the keys to hell and death"...?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-cedr Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 20:35:16

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-solwiz Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 21, 2008, at 18:55:16

> Ok, Lou... now you've got me with "solwiz"..! You're far too intentional to be playing a game, yet it's not beyond you to be dropping clues of some sort...
>
> (unless it's some sort of code for you to keep track of what you're putting forth)
>
> Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next installment from you ...
>
> Did He elaborate on "I have the keys to hell and death"...?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...solwiz...a code...elaborate...looking forward...keys..hell and death...]
The letters in the heading are a code that I use for referrence if I have reason to find a particular post.
Let us go on to what we were discussing as you have asked about the keys. This was at the beginning of finding myself walking on the sand and saw the beast come out of the sea.
The book of revelation is a book of symbols. The book reveals the plan that God has for mankind, the reason for man's existance, what mankind can do here to be in The Kingdom of God, which could bring in the revelation of the keys to hell and death.
When a Jew is directed to Solomon's 666 talents of gold, there is symbolism involved. Solomon was perhaps the richest man ever. But what is a {rich man}? Is a rich man only people like John Rockefeller or Bill Gates or Solomon or you or me? What IS a rich man? Does it matter how much wealth the person has to be designated as being {rich}? Could someone that is broke and owes a lot of money be {rich}?
The book of revelation is about those that are rich. The number 666 is about that. The beast is about that. The sea is about that. All the symbols in the book of revelation are about that. The keys to hell and death are about that. Solomon is about that. 666 is about that. Mystery Babylon is about that. The Lake of Fire is about that.
When I met a Rider on a White Horse, He said to me, "Lou, the love of money is the root of all evil. It is impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." I asked Him , "What is a rich man?" The Rider said to me," Here is a man who did not make God his strengh; he TRUSTED in the abundance of his riches."
I said to Him, "Then it is not how much one has but as to if one is {trusting} in those material things before God, right?"
The Rider said to me, "Lou, do not lay up for yourself treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-MonLew

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 21:18:39

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-cedr Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 20:35:16

> > Ok, Lou... now you've got me with "solwiz"..! You're far too intentional to be playing a game, yet it's not beyond you to be dropping clues of some sort...
> >
> > (unless it's some sort of code for you to keep track of what you're putting forth)
> >
> > Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next installment from you ...
> >
> > Did He elaborate on "I have the keys to hell and death"...?
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...solwiz...a code...elaborate...looking forward...keys..hell and death...]
> The letters in the heading are a code that I use for referrence if I have reason to find a particular post.
> Let us go on to what we were discussing as you have asked about the keys. This was at the beginning of finding myself walking on the sand and saw the beast come out of the sea.
> The book of revelation is a book of symbols. The book reveals the plan that God has for mankind, the reason for man's existance, what mankind can do here to be in The Kingdom of God, which could bring in the revelation of the keys to hell and death.
> When a Jew is directed to Solomon's 666 talents of gold, there is symbolism involved. Solomon was perhaps the richest man ever. But what is a {rich man}? Is a rich man only people like John Rockefeller or Bill Gates or Solomon or you or me? What IS a rich man? Does it matter how much wealth the person has to be designated as being {rich}? Could someone that is broke and owes a lot of money be {rich}?
> The book of revelation is about those that are rich. The number 666 is about that. The beast is about that. The sea is about that. All the symbols in the book of revelation are about that. The keys to hell and death are about that. Solomon is about that. 666 is about that. Mystery Babylon is about that. The Lake of Fire is about that.
> When I met a Rider on a White Horse, He said to me, "Lou, the love of money is the root of all evil. It is impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." I asked Him , "What is a rich man?" The Rider said to me," Here is a man who did not make God his strengh; he TRUSTED in the abundance of his riches."
> I said to Him, "Then it is not how much one has but as to if one is {trusting} in those material things before God, right?"
> The Rider said to me, "Lou, do not lay up for yourself treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
> Lou
>
Dena and friends,
In this discussion about the book called revelation,it was written by John, a Jew, and the readers could have been intended to be Jews and non-Jews. When a Jew sees the 666 in chapter 13, the aspect of Solomon's 666 talents of gold could be in mind. 666 talents is about 50,000 lbs.
Now Solomon is a figure to Jews that Jews in their fsamilies could talk about just like people in America in their families could talk about Bill Clinton.
Here is a link to the Temple of Solomon so if you are interested we could use this for further referrence. There is a photo of the remaiming wall of the temple complex
Lou
http://www.templesanjose.org/JudaismInfo/faq/templewall.htm

 

Lou's reply to Dena-1stlv

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2008, at 9:43:00

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-cedr Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 21, 2008, at 20:35:16

> > Ok, Lou... now you've got me with "solwiz"..! You're far too intentional to be playing a game, yet it's not beyond you to be dropping clues of some sort...
> >
> > (unless it's some sort of code for you to keep track of what you're putting forth)
> >
> > Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next installment from you ...
> >
> > Did He elaborate on "I have the keys to hell and death"...?
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...solwiz...a code...elaborate...looking forward...keys..hell and death...]
> The letters in the heading are a code that I use for referrence if I have reason to find a particular post.
> Let us go on to what we were discussing as you have asked about the keys. This was at the beginning of finding myself walking on the sand and saw the beast come out of the sea.
> The book of revelation is a book of symbols. The book reveals the plan that God has for mankind, the reason for man's existance, what mankind can do here to be in The Kingdom of God, which could bring in the revelation of the keys to hell and death.
> When a Jew is directed to Solomon's 666 talents of gold, there is symbolism involved. Solomon was perhaps the richest man ever. But what is a {rich man}? Is a rich man only people like John Rockefeller or Bill Gates or Solomon or you or me? What IS a rich man? Does it matter how much wealth the person has to be designated as being {rich}? Could someone that is broke and owes a lot of money be {rich}?
> The book of revelation is about those that are rich. The number 666 is about that. The beast is about that. The sea is about that. All the symbols in the book of revelation are about that. The keys to hell and death are about that. Solomon is about that. 666 is about that. Mystery Babylon is about that. The Lake of Fire is about that.
> When I met a Rider on a White Horse, He said to me, "Lou, the love of money is the root of all evil. It is impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." I asked Him , "What is a rich man?" The Rider said to me," Here is a man who did not make God his strengh; he TRUSTED in the abundance of his riches."
> I said to Him, "Then it is not how much one has but as to if one is {trusting} in those material things before God, right?"
> The Rider said to me, "Lou, do not lay up for yourself treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
> Lou

Dena,
You asked about [...the keys to hell and death...].
We have talked about the beast and 666 and the number of all humanity. And the number of humanity, 666 has a name that I have not written about yet.
When I had fallen on the sand and saw the beast come out of the sea, a Rider on a White Horse appeared to me. He revealed to me the symbol of the stars in His hand and that there were 7 candlesticks holding the 7 stars. He said that the 7 candlesticks were symbols of the 7 congregations in Asia. To a Jew, the number 7 is a symbol that could mean completion.
The Rider turned and said to me, "Lou, the 7 congregations have fallen like you have fallen on the sand. They have fallen because they left their first love. Be faithful until death, and I will give you a Crown of Life."
I asked what their first love was. The Rider turned and said to me, "Lou, love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If you love the world the love of the Father is left behind you. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world is passing away and the lust thearof; but he that does the will of God abides forever."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-1stlv Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 27, 2008, at 16:16:56

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-1stlv, posted by Lou Pilder on January 22, 2008, at 9:43:00

I can relate to "losing my first love"... for it seems that it's far too easy to become complacent within my relationship with God, and to let other things (the tyranny of the urgent, or manmade traditions, or the pervasiveness of "group think"), replace my relationship with poor substitutions.

What is the next thing you'd want us to know, Lou?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-fondatn Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 9:57:13

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-1stlv Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 27, 2008, at 16:16:56

> I can relate to "losing my first love"... for it seems that it's far too easy to become complacent within my relationship with God, and to let other things (the tyranny of the urgent, or manmade traditions, or the pervasiveness of "group think"), replace my relationship with poor substitutions.
>
> What is the next thing you'd want us to know, Lou?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...I can relate...too easy...let other things...replace...substitutions...]
When I read the book called Revelation, it was revealed to me mysteries that were unbeknownst to me. The book has symbols that revealed to me what had happened to me in my life for the book's symbols were intertwined with what had been revealed to me in a Spiritual way.
I walked on that Sand and saw the Beast come out of the Sea. And while I was there, there was a Rider on a White Horse behind me that I saw when I fell down on the sand.
And the Sand was like fine powder and the waves of the Sea were troubled casting up deep sand and dirt. There was Rain and strong Wind beating down and there were piles of wood as far as I could see down the shore that were once houses that had fallen. I saw what looked like the remains of my House. My House had fallen onto the Sand. And then I saw the Beast come out of the Sea.
I turned to the Rider and He said to me, "Lou, rejoice when you fall, for a just-man falls 7 times and rises up again. To one's own Master, he stands or falls. When one falls, the beast will be revealed to them. For when you build your house upon the sand, the Winds and the Rain will come and beat upon the House and it will fall; and great will be the fall of it."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-fondatn Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 28, 2008, at 16:34:41

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-fondatn Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 9:57:13

So, we rejoice when we fall, but it's bad for a house to fall, due to a bad foundation?

Why do we see the beast when we fall (& this is good?), and what is the significance of the house?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-idlshart Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 20:56:46

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-fondatn Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 28, 2008, at 16:34:41

> So, we rejoice when we fall, but it's bad for a house to fall, due to a bad foundation?
>
> Why do we see the beast when we fall (& this is good?), and what is the significance of the house?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...So we rejoicw when we fall...foundation...Why do we see the beast when we fall? (& this is good?)...].
I have been writing about one falling and the falling has been revealed to me to be from one leaving their first love. This leaving their first love means that something has replaced what was first so that there is a separation between what was their first love and the new treasure in their heart which causes them to stumble. What has been revealed to me is that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. If your first love is God, then God will be your heart, and not be behind anything else. And when those that have God as their first love leave their first love, then they set up an idol in their heart. I have not identified the beast yet, but will shortly. To a Jewish person versed in their scriptures, reading what John penned, they could understand the symbols of {leaving their first love} and the beast comming out of the sea. They could be directed after reading that passage to the book called Ezekiel in the 14th chapter, verses 7 on, as we read;
[...For anyone of the house of Israel who separates himself from me...and sets up his Idols in his Heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity,... >I will set my face against that man<...].( I will write further about seeing the beast come out of the sea). And then the rejoicing news from the book called Isaiah, the first chapter, verses 18 on;
[...Come, let us reason together, says the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool...].
Lou

 

Lou's reply to Dena-repntnovrcm

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 21:49:23

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-idlshart Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 20:56:46

> > So, we rejoice when we fall, but it's bad for a house to fall, due to a bad foundation?
> >
> > Why do we see the beast when we fall (& this is good?), and what is the significance of the house?
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...So we rejoicw when we fall...foundation...Why do we see the beast when we fall? (& this is good?)...].
> I have been writing about one falling and the falling has been revealed to me to be from one leaving their first love. This leaving their first love means that something has replaced what was first so that there is a separation between what was their first love and the new treasure in their heart which causes them to stumble. What has been revealed to me is that where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. If your first love is God, then God will be your heart, and not be behind anything else. And when those that have God as their first love leave their first love, then they set up an idol in their heart. I have not identified the beast yet, but will shortly. To a Jewish person versed in their scriptures, reading what John penned, they could understand the symbols of {leaving their first love} and the beast comming out of the sea. They could be directed after reading that passage to the book called Ezekiel in the 14th chapter, verses 7 on, as we read;
> [...For anyone of the house of Israel who separates himself from me...and sets up his Idols in his Heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity,... >I will set my face against that man<...].( I will write further about seeing the beast come out of the sea). And then the rejoicing news from the book called Isaiah, the first chapter, verses 18 on;
> [...Come, let us reason together, says the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool...].
> Lou

Dena,
You wrote,[...What is the significance of the house?...]
What has been revealed to me is that the {house} is a symbol of the Spiritual House that one builds for themselves. In the second chapter of Revelation, John penns in verse 5 on to the congregation that has left their first love;
[...Remember thearfore from where you have fallen,{repent} and {do the {first works}...].
When I was on the shore of the sea and saw the beast come up out of the sea, there was a Rider on a White Horse behind me. When I saw the beast come out of the sea , I turned to Him and he said to me, "Lou, repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. To him that overcomes I will give to eat from The Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-idlshart Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 28, 2008, at 21:55:42

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-idlshart Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 20:56:46

Yes, I agree, that when I leave my first love (for I am made in God's image, and I am made to respond to His love, to reflect His love back to Him), then I set up idols in my heart...

I've come to believe that my heart is the Holy of Holies in the Temple I'm meant to be, and that I'm meant to worship Him in my heart (with all of my heart).

I see that if I put an idol in place of God in my heart (& there will my treasure be), then I will stumble.

Is there a connection between the prophet in Ezekiel 14, and the false prophet (or beast) in Revelation?

I look forward to hearing more about the beast.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-repntnovrcm Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 28, 2008, at 21:58:10

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-repntnovrcm, posted by Lou Pilder on January 28, 2008, at 21:49:23

I see that there's a choice.

That repentence can be chosen... that it ushers in the Kingdom of Heaven... that the Tree of Life represents the Rider, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations...

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-mndovgd Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 29, 2008, at 15:52:33

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-repntnovrcm Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 28, 2008, at 21:58:10

> I see that there's a choice.
>
> That repentence can be chosen... that it ushers in the Kingdom of Heaven... that the Tree of Life represents the Rider, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations...
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...That repentance can be chosen..ushers in the Kingdom of Heaven...]
The verse in Revelation is in chapter 2, verses 5 on that reads,[...Remember..from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works...]
As I read that verse, I asked myself as to repent of what? One could repent of a single thing or a multitude of things, but when I thought of it, there could be an overiding thing to repent of that all the other things could come out of. As a Jew reading what John had penned, I was directed to the book called Isaiah the 26th chapter, the 3erd verse as we read,
[...God will keep a man in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Him, because he trusts in Him...].
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-mndovgd Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 29, 2008, at 19:50:24

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-mndovgd Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 29, 2008, at 15:52:33

The first works...?

What comes to mind for me is:

- Love God with all of me (heart, soul, strength, mind)

- Love others as myself...

I was reading in a book this morning, about how when Jesus said He was going to prepare a house for me, that it meant a "house" within the heart of God... that I live in the heart of God, and if I choose His gift, He lives in me as well...

And so HE is my first love, and He is my peace, and He is my trust.

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 29, 2008, at 20:33:06

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-mndovgd Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 29, 2008, at 19:50:24

> The first works...?
>
> What comes to mind for me is:
>
> - Love God with all of me (heart, soul, strength, mind)
>
> - Love others as myself...
>
> I was reading in a book this morning, about how when Jesus said He was going to prepare a house for me, that it meant a "house" within the heart of God... that I live in the heart of God, and if I choose His gift, He lives in me as well...
>
> And so HE is my first love, and He is my peace, and He is my trust.
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...first works?...love God..and others...prepare a house...abide in...]
I can asuradly understand what you wrote. For Solomon's Temple was where God abided. When the Temple was destroyed, we could become the Temples of God for Him to reside in Spiritually. Our bodies then can become the Temples of God's Spirit. I can relate to that. Then if there is an idol of the heart, is there not then that the idol is in the temple?
What was brought to me in reading that verse in Revelation was that in falling I think that our {minds} are changed when we fall, and need to be renewed or exchanged to a new mind. This could then create a new heart and a new spirit and a new person. Old things could pass away and all things could become new.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on January 30, 2008, at 13:07:54

In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on January 29, 2008, at 20:33:06

I'm thinking that I was born already "fallen", and thus was in a state in which I made choices out of that fallenness...

I believe that God knew this about me, and loved me enough to want to rescue me from that condition...

I believe that He orchestrated circumstances in my life so that I came to the "end of myself", finally saw that my own efforts couldn't help me to change, and then I saw that He was offering a way of escape for me... and so I chose His offer, and then He came to make me His temple, and is now in my "Holy of Holies" (my heart). Thus my heart is good.

The problem is that my mind is enslaved to the lies that I've long-believed ... and it takes a mind-renewal (replacing one lie with Truth, over time, over a lifetime), in order for me to move more and more into living in the freedom that Truth brings me.

In one sense, I am already a new person, in another sense I am becoming ever-more a new person, and in another sense, I will one day become a finished new person, when I pass through the veil of this life.

Yes, I agree, I am cooperating with the process in which old things have been/are/will be passing away, and all things have been/are/will be made new.

My limited human brain struggles with understanding the "timing" of it, because my current existance is bound by time... however, I see that God exists and functions outside of time, and so is not limited as I am.

Lou -- I hope this didn't distract you from what you were revealing, but perhaps added to what you're saying.


I do strongly agree that when I allow anything to replace my first love (& I believe this is a daily challenge), then I have replaced Him with an idol (for me, this idol can be my own will, my own preferences, and even the "things of God" rather than God Himself... I can replace God with "serving God", or doing good works to "earn relationship" with Him, rather than participating in relationship with Him that He's already given me to enjoy).

Ok, back to you, Lou! What's next?

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's reply to Dena-agp Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 30, 2008, at 16:04:14

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrt Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on January 30, 2008, at 13:07:54

> I'm thinking that I was born already "fallen", and thus was in a state in which I made choices out of that fallenness...
>
> I believe that God knew this about me, and loved me enough to want to rescue me from that condition...
>
> I believe that He orchestrated circumstances in my life so that I came to the "end of myself", finally saw that my own efforts couldn't help me to change, and then I saw that He was offering a way of escape for me... and so I chose His offer, and then He came to make me His temple, and is now in my "Holy of Holies" (my heart). Thus my heart is good.
>
> The problem is that my mind is enslaved to the lies that I've long-believed ... and it takes a mind-renewal (replacing one lie with Truth, over time, over a lifetime), in order for me to move more and more into living in the freedom that Truth brings me.
>
> In one sense, I am already a new person, in another sense I am becoming ever-more a new person, and in another sense, I will one day become a finished new person, when I pass through the veil of this life.
>
> Yes, I agree, I am cooperating with the process in which old things have been/are/will be passing away, and all things have been/are/will be made new.
>
> My limited human brain struggles with understanding the "timing" of it, because my current existance is bound by time... however, I see that God exists and functions outside of time, and so is not limited as I am.
>
> Lou -- I hope this didn't distract you from what you were revealing, but perhaps added to what you're saying.
>
>
> I do strongly agree that when I allow anything to replace my first love (& I believe this is a daily challenge), then I have replaced Him with an idol (for me, this idol can be my own will, my own preferences, and even the "things of God" rather than God Himself... I can replace God with "serving God", or doing good works to "earn relationship" with Him, rather than participating in relationship with Him that He's already given me to enjoy).
>
> Ok, back to you, Lou! What's next?
>
> Shalom, Dena

Dena,
You wrote,[...a way to escape...mind is enslaved...renewing of the mind...the process...God exists outside of time...not distract but added...replaced..with an idol...]
Your reply did add to the discussion in a great way. You brought up what the book called the Revelation writes about in symbols.
The symbols of the book reveal the mind of God in relation to His plan for all humanity and what we are purposed for. You wrote about that God does not exist in time. It has been revealed to me that the book called Revelation is also about that time is {now}, {before now} and {after now}.
You did not divert from the meaning of the symbolism of the book, but made it more clear. The beast that came out of the sea has a name that we are comming to. It does have to do with the mind of man and the mind of God. It has been revealed to me that there are two minds that we can entertain. And you wrote that you were enslaved to {lies} and that renewing your mind was replacing things that you had a long-time standing of acceptance to. But how does one ever overcome what they have accepted for many years?
While I was on that Sand, a Rider on a White Horse was behind me. When I saw the Beast come out of the Sea, there was the discussion concerning the fallen house and that the Rider said to me, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." I asked Him what was to repented of. He turned and said to me, "Lou, the Lord preserves them that love Him; Love is the fulfilling of the law; Out of faith, hope and love, the greatest of those is love. Be not conformed to the world, for one can know what love is. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down his life for his friends."
Lou


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