Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 487466

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series

Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 12:01:22

And my mind is just swirling with ideas from world religions. And I'm staggered with the wisdom to be found in all. And I'm only up to tape three!

 

Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series

Posted by rayww on April 23, 2005, at 9:42:58

In reply to Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 12:01:22

What are some of your favorite thoughts As in what did he say that made you think or feel different?

 

Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series » Dinah

Posted by cricket on April 23, 2005, at 9:55:36

In reply to Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 12:01:22

I don't know Huston Smith. But I would love to hear about what's resonating with you.

 

Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series

Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2005, at 11:52:03

In reply to Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series » Dinah, posted by cricket on April 23, 2005, at 9:55:36

"The World's Religions: Our Great Wisdom Traditions (Paperback)"

He's a philosopher with a special interest in religion. I've only heard Buddhism and Hinduism so far, but I've been really impressed.

It's hard to grasp those things that impress me most. Since I'm hearing them rather than seeing them, and I tend to be more of a visual learner, my insights tend to be ephemeral.

But I think the thing that grabbed my attention most was the Hindu idea of different paths to God based on different personalities of people. That reaching God was like reaching a mountaintop. But that since we all start in different places, there are different roads to help us reach him.

I always get into arguments at church. While our faith believes that salvation comes from grace alone, and while I don't particularly think about salvation at all, in practice there is a lot of emphasis on salvation coming through faith rather than works. And I always get very confused because to me it seems that having faith is a work. It is an act. And to some people having perfect faith is a much harder work than having right behavior. So I argue that if salvation is through grace alone, and that we can never reach God through constructing a ladder of our own works, then neither can we reach God through constructing a ladder of our own work of having faith. That if salvation is through grace alone, then our actions of faith no more than our actions of good deeds can earn us a place near God.

So the idea of different paths appeals to me. It doesn't place an unbearable burden on anyone given their personality structure. Sometimes I feel a nearly unbearable burden expected of me to have perfect faith, when having perfect faith is really not in my nature. And God created me this way. Shouldn't he accept me and love me as a questioning soul?

 

Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series » Dinah

Posted by Dena on April 25, 2005, at 10:37:52

In reply to Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2005, at 11:52:03

Dinah -

I hear what you're saying... or I see what you're "painting"...!

I'm reading through a series of books that goes into what you're describing. It's written from a Christian perspective, but it's a perspective borne out of frustration with the whole "who's in and who's out" mentality regarding salvation...

It starts with the premise that yes, Jesus came to save, but He came to save the WHOLE WORLD, not a select few who get their brains wrapped around "right doctrine"...

... and, it discusses how we need to become part of the salvation of the whole world, through our works... that our works are about His plan for others, not so that we, individually are thus "saved"...

... how it includes saving the environment, the planet, the creation itself. Not writing it off, because "it's going to be destroyed one day anyway".

It's been challenging my "traditionally held Christian beliefs" - stretching me in often-painful, sometimes overwhelming ways...

...but it's all good, because it's enlargening my concepts of God. Letting Him out of my box, & the multitudes of boxes that others have tried to squelch Him into.

This concept not only allows, but ENCOURAGES all manner of questioning -- it mandates a belief system that makes room for doubts - even serious ones, because that's how we learn, and ultimately, that's how faith grows -- with honest integrity, rather than swallowing what others spoon-feed us.

It also forces us who've been "in the Christian community" to face our failings -- the ways in which we've "marketed" God, through the abuses of the crusades, slavery, dominion of other cultures, genocides, superiority, ignorance, and not to mention the tele-evangelists...!

It shows us that many of us have "missed the point", and have become more like those whom Jesus condemned, than like Jesus Himself...

It's more than cool.

"A New Kind of Christian" That's the first of a trilogy... while it's easy to read, it's not easy to digest... but VERY worth the while!

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's response to Dena's post » Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 25, 2005, at 17:19:51

In reply to Re: Been listening to Huston Smith's lecture series » Dinah, posted by Dena on April 25, 2005, at 10:37:52

Dena,
You wrote,[...have become more like those whom Jesus condemned, then like Jesus Himself...].
Could you clarify the avove by specifying who Jesus condemned and what they were condemned for?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on April 25, 2005, at 20:05:18

In reply to Lou's response to Dena's post » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on April 25, 2005, at 17:19:51

Jesus had no patience for people who thought they were better than others... who made "reaching God" more difficult than it needed to be ... who pointed fingers at others, rather than examining their own hearts...

He rebuked them (better word that "condemned" - sorry I used it) for their self-righteousness, and their contempt for others...

These people, who can be found in almost any group, regardless of the "label" they wear, do not please God, who is, ultimately, all about love.

He summed up all of the law by boiling it down into two commandments:

- Love God with everything about you; and

- Love others as yourselves.

He continues to teach that to His followers (Ghandi understood this, better than many who call themselves "Christians"), and continues to rebuke those who consider themselves better than others...

... but sometimes, we don't listen very well.

For far too many years, I was one of those worthy of being rebuked. I considered myself as "superior" to others, thinking myself to be an "insider", and others to be "outsiders". I looked down on others with different beliefs.

I'm ashamed of this. I've asked Him to teach me about love.

Shalom, Dena

 

Lou's response to Dena's post » Dena

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 25, 2005, at 20:26:52

In reply to Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on April 25, 2005, at 20:05:18

Dena,
You wrote,[...Jesus had no patience with people... who made "reaching God" more difficult than it needed to be...].
Could you clarify the following as to what you mean by:
A. "reaching God" ?
B. the things that make it {more difficult}than it needed to be?
C. an example of Jesus having no patience ?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dena on April 25, 2005, at 21:03:33

In reply to Lou's response to Dena's post » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on April 25, 2005, at 20:26:52

> Dena,
> You wrote,[...Jesus had no patience with people... who made "reaching God" more difficult than it needed to be...].
> Could you clarify the following as to what you mean by:
> A. "reaching God" ?

Well, God is Spirit -- we're spirit, too, but also psyche (soul) and body. We're limited by our humanity. God is Other... every religion has some sort of system designed to connect with Deity in some meaningful way...

Within Judaism (& really, Lou, YOU should be teaching us about this, rather than me teaching here...!), the law was given as a means of having a relationship with God.

The law was good - it established a covenant between God and the Jews.

But some individuals took the already-good law, and added extra laws upon it - man's laws ... making it difficult for the average person to adhere to all of the laws... and in some cases, the focus got off of God, and onto desperately trying to keep all the nuances of the added-on laws...

People who wanted to love and follow God often had a hard time doing so, feeling like failures for not being able to keep up with man's laws (which were in the guise of God's laws).

> B. the things that make it {more difficult}than it needed to be?

Any time we're trying to please another person's interpretation of God's requirements, we're attempting to please another human being, rather than trying to please God. Only God is perfect, only God is able to help us keep His commandments, and only God is able to judge men's hearts... people can't do that. No person should judge another's heart.

> C. an example of Jesus having no patience ?

Matthew 21: 12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13“It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a ‘den of robbers."

Matthew 23 (the whole chapter, but here is a portion): 23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Whether you could say He "lost His patience", or just strongly reubuked, He certainly wasn't pleased with this attitude.

He spoke against "using God" to push one's own agenda.

I would dare to say that today, He's just as rebuking of those who do so: Preachers who lord over others; Tele-evangelists who use their position to bilk others out of their money; people who line the streets of Jerusalem, selling "tourist trinkets"; and people like me - who wore the labels of "born again" and "saved", and yet looked down on others who weren't "in the club".

Did I answer your questions, Lou?

Many, many people have done selfish, self-absorbed, self-promoting things "in the name of God", and I'm one of the guilty ones...

May God have mercy on us. May He teach us a better way.

Shalom, Dena


 

Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 11:17:12

In reply to Lou's response to Dena's post » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on April 25, 2005, at 20:26:52

Lou, FWIW, I never have considered it very likely that Jesus was condemning the Jews. Since he was Jewish himself. It would be like me complaining about hypocrites or whatever in my church or in my neighborhood. It wouldn't even occur to me that I was condemning Methodists or Americans because I'm a Methodist American, and many of my friends are Americans and some of them are Methodists. I'd be talking about individual people not races of people.

You know?

While I realize that that realization sometimes gets lost, I don't think Dena is one who loses sight of it.

 

Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Dinah

Posted by Dena on April 26, 2005, at 12:16:11

In reply to Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 11:17:12

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dinah! ;)

Yes, Jesus was Jewish. He never, ever condemned anyone, much less the people of His own heritage.

Now, He rebuked lots of folks...not because of their identities, but for what was in their hearts.

When He rebuked the Pharisees in particular, it wasn't the whole group of Pharisees - it was those particular individuals who were "missing the point" about loving God and neighbor...

I believe that He still looks at individual hearts - is that person open to God? trusting? loving? caring of others? generous? - no matter what externals they're labeled with (ethnicity, religion, culture, gender, etc.).

 

Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2005, at 14:47:41

In reply to Re: Lou's response to Dena's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 11:17:12

Dinah,
You wrote,[...I never considered...that Jesus was condemning the Jews...While I realize that that realization sometimes gets lost...]
Since you realize that, is not there the potential, then, for others here to think that the statements in question {have the potential} to mean that the Jews were being condemned?
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 17:32:01

In reply to Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2005, at 14:47:41

Anything can be interpreted in a negative way, Lou. Did you ever see one of those comedy sketches where someone is trying to make a sexual innuendo or potty humor out of every word out of another person's mouth? It can generally be done.

But that doesn't mean that Dena intended it that way or that people with a familiarity with church history wouldn't understand it exactly as Dena meant it. But if you want to make it clear, saying something like:

"Dena, I know that you realize that Jesus wasn't talking about the Jews, but sometimes that fact is lost over the years. So I just want to remind everyone that Jesus wasn't in fact talking about the Jews, because he himself was a Jew and he wouldn't have thought about it in those terms any more than I would think about Americans being an inconsiderate bunch of people when I was complaining about my next door neighbor playing music too loud. He was talking to the people he lived his life with."

Then it would make it clear that you didn't want any misinterpretation, but also that you didn't think Dena meant anything other than what she said.

Which is not to say you have to do it that way. You can ask Dena for clarification as you did. And she can choose to clarify or not to clarify. But the other way of discussing it might be edifying and move the thread into interesting topics.

Or at least interesting to me. One of my favorite areas of inquiry in theology is the Jewishness of Jesus, and the context in that Jewishness of the things he said. Whole books have been written on the topic, and I own a goodly number of them. I don't know if anyone else is as interested as I am in the topic. But I would truly enjoy an indication that someone was.

 

Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah

Posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2005, at 17:41:36

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 17:32:01

Dinah,
Could you redirect your post and my request here to the admin. board. I think that our discussion perhps belongs more on that forum since it is now looking like an administartive discussion could come out of this.
Lou

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 18:19:27

In reply to Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2005, at 17:41:36

Well, my part of the discussion is theological, Lou. On the Jewishness of Jesus and how I wish someone other than me was interested in stuff like that. Do you have an administrative portion you wish to add?

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Lou Pilder

Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 18:22:05

In reply to Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on April 26, 2005, at 17:41:36

Here's a link to Admin in case you do. But I wasn't quite sure what I was redirecting.

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050417/msgs/489985.html

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah

Posted by rayww on April 26, 2005, at 23:37:42

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 18:19:27

> Well, my part of the discussion is theological, Lou. On the Jewishness of Jesus and how I wish someone other than me was interested in stuff like that.

Count me in.
I love your word, "Jewishness". It is such a compliment to Jesus. He truly was that way in culture and tradition. It is so evidenced in the way he taught. Of all the pain he suffered the greatest had to be betrayal in the house of his friends. What a history the world has suffered. Why? Sometimes a person just wants to ask why. I have to think he loved the Jewishness of life that broke his heart in the end.

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » rayww

Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 9:55:40

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah, posted by rayww on April 26, 2005, at 23:37:42

I would disagree, Ray. The people who stuck by him through the bad times, the people he returned to after his resurrection, were also Jewish. I don't think he felt let down by his faith, or his friends. Again, if I were to be falsely accused of something and punished severely, I would be angry with the individuals, not with Americans.

What I'm trying to say was that race and culture don't play much of a role in the thinking of someone immersed in them.

Jesus loved Judaism, before and after his resurrection. He loved Peter and Paul and Thomas and Mary and Mary. He didn't feel betrayed by the "Jews". He felt betrayed by individuals perhaps. And since crucifixion was clearly a Roman form of execution, he probably wasn't too happy with them. But then, historically, he wouldn't have been before either.

There is a passage in some interpretations of the New Testament that say that Jesus' followers were hiding out in homes from the Jews. And I always speak up and say, "Well, what did they do when they looked at each other? Screech and run from each other and the mirror?" Because they WERE Jews themselves. They can't possibly have been hiding from the Jews. Until Paul spread the gospel of Jesus to the pagans, Jesus's followers were Jewish. They weren't afraid of the Jews. They were afraid of the people out to get them. It wouldn't have occurred to them to be afraid of the Jews any more than it would occur to me to be afraid of the Americans. What am I going to do? Be afraid of myself? My son? My mother? My husband?

Jesus wasn't betrayed by the Jews. His remaining followers were Jews. He was abandoned by those who believed that a Messiah meant something completely different than what Jesus meant, that much is true. The traditional Jewish Messiah, descendent of the house of David, was supposed to come and release the Jewish people from worldly bondage. Overthrow the Roman Empire. To those who believed that, they didn't accept, and couldn't under that understanding accept Jesus as Messiah.

But he was supported by those who believed in him. And if it weren't for the Jews that believed in Jesus and kept his name alive, Paul would have never had a chance to spread Christianity to the Pagans. It wasn't a racial thing at all. And IMHO, it's not fair to say that the "Jews" betrayed Jesus, or that Jesus was unhappy with the "Jews".

 

Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » Dinah

Posted by Dena on April 27, 2005, at 11:20:02

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » rayww, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 9:55:40

Beautifully and articulately stated, Dinah!

And still today, we have people, both Jewish and Gentile, who believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and those, both Jewish and Gentile who do not.

I'm comforted that God, and only God, can discern the individual's heart - and alone is able to judge whether that individual loves God and neighbor, or not.

I like NOT having to be in that judging position! It frees me to just learn to love.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: In fact ---- » Dinah

Posted by AuntieMel on April 27, 2005, at 15:44:27

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dinah- » rayww, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 9:55:40

The early Christians considered themselves Jews first. It was a requirement for anyone to join them that they first convert to Judaism, including the circumcision.

It was only later, when they decided to reach out to gentiles that they dropped that requirement.

 

Quite true

Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 18:02:45

In reply to Re: In fact ---- » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on April 27, 2005, at 15:44:27

It was a major point of contention between James the Just and Paul.

But as far as I can tell, James was the uncontested leader of the early "Christians" and he considered himself to be a devout and pious Jew. It wasn't until the revolt some thirty plus years after Jesus' death that Judaism and Christianity really began divergent paths. And Paul of course, who still probably never intended what later happened.

Or at least that's my understanding.

 

Re: Quite true » Dinah

Posted by Dena on April 27, 2005, at 18:51:10

In reply to Quite true, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 18:02:45

> It was a major point of contention between James the Just and Paul.
>
> But as far as I can tell, James was the uncontested leader of the early "Christians" and he considered himself to be a devout and pious Jew. It wasn't until the revolt some thirty plus years after Jesus' death that Judaism and Christianity really began divergent paths. And Paul of course, who still probably never intended what later happened.
>
> Or at least that's my understanding.


Don't you sometimes wish you could've "been there"? I mean, to see it first-hand, experience it, enmeshed in that time period, understanding the ins and outs of that culture, to get the nuances of words that may have entirely changed meanings over time...?

I'd love to really "get it" from the source - rather than having to resort to varying reports, from varying vantage points, perhaps told with overt (or even covert) agendas...

I just can't help thinking that so much of what passes for "Christianity" is soooo missing the point (I know I keep saying that - and it's not so much a criticism, as it is a longing to get to the heart of what really matters!).

Man, I hope I'm not going to get blocked for dissing my own faith community!

What I'm "dissing" is the abuses that have permeated historical, and contemporary, Christianity. The stuff that makes me cringe...

Shalom, Dena

 

wishing you could have been there » Dena

Posted by rayww on April 27, 2005, at 21:41:11

In reply to Re: Quite true » Dinah, posted by Dena on April 27, 2005, at 18:51:10

A distant cousin of mine, David B Haight, had an experiance that was as though he was there. I think of him as the Pope of the LDS church, because he was the oldest, and kind of looked like a pope. If you would like to read what he said about it: http://www.cancertutor.com/LDS/29_David_B_Haight.html
As quoted, and if I get blocked for sharing this, so long:
Taken From the Talk: “The Sacrament—and the Sacrifice,” Ensign, Nov. 1989

[Note: This is one of the most powerful talks ever given by anyone!!]

Six months ago at the April general conference, I was excused from speaking as I was convalescing from a serious operation. My life has been spared, and I now have the pleasant ....

The evening of my health crisis, I knew something very serious had happened to me. Events happened so swiftly—the pain striking with such intensity, my dear Ruby phoning the doctor and our family, and I on my knees leaning over the bathtub for support and some comfort and hoped relief from the pain. I was pleading to my Heavenly Father to spare my life a while longer to give me a little more time to do His work, if it was His will.

While still praying, I began to lose consciousness. The siren of the paramedic truck was the last that I remembered before unconsciousness overtook me, which would last for the next several days.

The terrible pain and commotion of people ceased. I was now in a calm, peaceful setting; all was serene and quiet. I was conscious of two persons in the distance on a hillside, one standing on a higher level than the other. Detailed features were not discernible. The person on the higher level was pointing to something I could not see.

I heard no voices but was conscious of being in a holy presence and atmosphere. During the hours and days that followed, there was impressed again and again upon my mind the eternal mission and exalted position of the Son of Man. I witness to you that He is Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, Savior to all, Redeemer of all mankind, Bestower of infinite love, mercy, and forgiveness, the Light and Life of the world. I knew this truth before—I had never doubted nor wondered. But now I knew, because of the impressions of the Spirit upon my heart and soul, these divine truths in a most unusual way.

I was shown a panoramic view of His earthly ministry: His baptism, His teaching, His healing the sick and lame, the mock trial, His crucifixion, His resurrection and ascension. There followed scenes of His earthly ministry to my mind in impressive detail, confirming scriptural eyewitness accounts. I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things.

The first scene was of the Savior and His Apostles in the upper chamber on the eve of His betrayal. Following the Passover supper, He instructed and prepared the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper for His dearest friends as a remembrance of His coming sacrifice. It was so impressively portrayed to me—the overwhelming love of the Savior for each. I witnessed His thoughtful concern for significant details—the washing of the dusty feet of each Apostle, His breaking and blessing of the loaf of dark bread and blessing of the wine, then His dreadful disclosure that one would betray Him.

He explained Judas’s departure and told the others of the events soon to take place.

Then followed the Savior’s solemn discourse when He said to the Eleven: “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33.)

Our Savior prayed to His Father and acknowledged the Father as the source of His authority and power—even to the extending of eternal life to all who are worthy.

He prayed, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Jesus then reverently added:

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:3-5.)

He pled not only for the disciples called out from the world who had been true to their testimony of Him, “but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.” (John 17:20.)

When they had sung a hymn, Jesus and the Eleven went out to the Mount of Olives. There, in the garden, in some manner beyond our comprehension, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world. His agony in the garden, Luke tells us, was so intense “his sweat was as … great drops of blood falling … to the ground.” (Luke 22:44.) He suffered an agony and a burden the like of which no human person would be able to bear. In that hour of anguish our Savior overcame all the power of Satan.

The glorified Lord revealed to Joseph Smith this admonition to all mankind:

“Therefore I command you to repent …

“For … I, God, … suffered … for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; …

“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, …

“Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments.” (D&C 19:15-16, 18, 20.)

During those days of unconsciousness I was given, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, a more perfect knowledge of His mission. I was also given a more complete understanding of what it means to exercise, in His name, the authority to unlock the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven for the salvation of all who are faithful. My soul was taught over and over again the events of the betrayal, the mock trial, the scourging of the flesh of even one of the Godhead. I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display.

Crucifixion—the horrible and painful death which He suffered—was chosen from the beginning. By that excruciating death, He descended below all things, as is recorded, that through His resurrection He would ascend above all things. (See D&C 88:6.)

Jesus Christ died in the literal sense in which we will all die. His body lay in the tomb. The immortal spirit of Jesus, chosen as the Savior of mankind, went to those myriads of spirits who had departed mortal life with varying degrees of righteousness to God’s laws. He taught them the “glorious tidings of redemption from the bondage of death, and of possible salvation, …

I cannot begin to convey to you the deep impact that these scenes have confirmed upon my soul. I sense their eternal meaning and realize that “nothing in the entire plan of salvation compares in any way in importance with that most transcendent of all events, the atoning sacrifice of our Lord. It is the most important single thing that has ever occurred in the entire history of created things; it is the rock foundation upon which the gospel and all other things rest,”

 

Re: wishing you could have been there » rayww

Posted by Dena on April 28, 2005, at 9:45:17

In reply to wishing you could have been there » Dena, posted by rayww on April 27, 2005, at 21:41:11

That must have been powerful for him to experience.

I certainly hope it's not seen as something worthy of you getting blocked for...

I do have one "ponderance", and I don't intend for it to take away from the significance of what your cousin experienced, nor the impact of it on your life...

But, I've always wondered why Jesus is "portrayed" to have been speaking Elizabethean English... a vernacular that had nothing to do with the Aramaic and Hebrew He would have spoken at the time (both of which are very "earthy" languages, void of the proper "thee's" and "thou's" of Elizabethean English).

And, it has nothing to do with the modern English that we speak today...

Now, I understand that your church exclusively uses the King James Bible, and so perhaps the members of your church would "hear" Jesus speak in that manner...

But in my own imagination, I get a far different picture of Jesus than the "reverant, mild-mannered, hair-parted-neatly" kind of guy who never raised His voice, and always spoke "King-Jamesese"...

I see a captivating, charismatic, life-infused person - someone who was so dynamic to listen to that thousands of people went without eating in order to hang on His every word... (as in the accounts of "feeding the multitudes"). A man full of passion, intensity, who laughed loudly and loved vigorously... who lived life full-throttle-enthusiastically!


Sorry to go off on a tangent ... this is just one of my pet peeves... occasionally I have to take it out for a walk...!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: wishing you could have been there » Dena

Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 10:09:55

In reply to Re: wishing you could have been there » rayww, posted by Dena on April 28, 2005, at 9:45:17

Oh Dena! I wish you could be in my Sunday School class. I know you wouldn't look at me as if I were the devil incarnate, or publicly pray for my immortal soul.

That's how I see Jesus as well.


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[dr. bob] Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD, bob@dr-bob.org

Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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