Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 482296

Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Salvation

Posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 8:54:54

What is the difference between saying (as someone said on admin)
a) No one outside of the church will receive salvation, and
b) Salvation is gained only through the Messiah?

I see a big difference. In (a) the question becomes "which church", and in (b) "which Messiah"

Some points to ponder:
* People who don't believe in God don't need to worry about salvation because they don't believe in it anyway.
* Is Salvation a free gift or does it come with a procedure and price?
* Can a murderer who believes in Christ while committing a crime be saved?
* Does Jesus save us in our sins or "from" our sins?

I would like to invite people of all beliefs to share a brief statement about who they or their religion believe qualifies for salvation. THis is not meant to be an argument between who gets the prize and who doesn't. I simply want to know and expose for all to see the faith versus folly of belief, especially if one excludes others. Please be sensitive. If one believes there is no salvation, or when we're dead we're dead, share that too. I want to let the secrets out. I want to know what rituals, price, promises, covenants etc. it takes in every religion to qualify for everlasting life in the company of God.

I'll start by quoting http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=bodies+celestial&scripturesearch_button=Search
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that in order to be able to abide the light of God's presence we need to develop a Celestial body. (Body means body - - my very own body). These verses refer to "bodies" and "glories" of all degrees of light, from no light to brilliant. We beleive there are procedures and policies complete with outcomes and measures all along the way, and that every person who is born can grow into this. We believe God is no respector of persons, and that every person has had equal opportunity from the beginning of time. We believe this is a process over time and that every choice we make takes us closer to or farther away from light. We believe that our physical body is capable of absorbing light and also darkness. However dim it seems here, this light will be glorified in the hereafter. Light can be recognized through spirit, tone of voice, writing, acts of love, etc. I have not outlined specific procedures because anyone in any faith can qualify to the point of baptism. We believe that eventually there is one gate only that will open to salvation, and that gate is through Jesus Christ, since it was he who broke the bands of death.

 

Re: Salvation » rayww

Posted by SLS on April 10, 2005, at 10:44:30

In reply to Salvation, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 8:54:54

Hi Rayww.

I admire your passion and zeal.

It is obvious that you care very much about other people to want to help them, despite the difficulties you might encounter along the way.

I'm glad you had the courage to state as a matter of fact your beliefs. I feel it was very important that you did.


- Scott

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 13:28:41

In reply to Re: Salvation » rayww, posted by SLS on April 10, 2005, at 10:44:30

Well, I might make some people angry but you're asking for an open forum right? If I'm wrong delete me. I was born a Congregationalist, Prostestant in the state of Ct. I was baptised as a baby, with a drop of water on my head. I was not given any formal religious teaching as my mother was sick from the time I was 2 and died when I was l7. I married a Catholic who had gone all through the Catholic schools and was fed-up with Religion. When we had children I didn't care what Religion they were, just so long as they were brought up with some Faith. My ex-husband was no help. No Church of any kind for the 21yrs we were married. Today I believe in a Higher Power, but I'm not sure what that means. I mentioned in a Thread I once posted that Jesus visited me in a time of need, but it was challenged so much that I stopped posting. I read The Road Less Traveled and developed my own Spirituality. When I married my husband he was brought up with strong convictions in regards to Christianity. I've tried to go to church, we've tried all different ones. But the problem I have is that I am the type who needs proof and I mean I want to see what happens when you die. I just don't believe there is a place with billions of people somewhere called Heaven. It would be too crowded. I try to believe but when I've gone to funerals the body just looks like wax. I know true believers say the "spirit" is gone and the body is just a body, but I still feel when you die you are buried and that's it. I really want to be convinced otherwise, as I feel that if I were a strong believer I wouldn't have the problems I have today. Hope I don't make anyone mad but you asked. I really envy all of you irreguardless of which Religion your strong convictions. I've even played with the theory of Reincarnation and it makes more sense to me. Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 15:39:34

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 13:28:41

Thankyou for your courage in sharing. I hope this thread is allowed to run its course, with no one taking issue with what anyone else says. When I used the phrase, "faith and folly" it included the idea that one man's faith may be considered folly to another, and in this thread that should be allowed.

 

Re: Salvation » rayww

Posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 16:39:55

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 15:39:34

If it is it will surely be a very informative one. I myself like to gain insight into what everyone's Faith, or even lack of means to them. I'm not interested in being right or wrong. Just always open to new ideas and my never ending thirst for new knowledge. Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by Dena on April 10, 2005, at 19:18:28

In reply to Re: Salvation » rayww, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 16:39:55

Really good topic, Rayww! Way to be bold - you go, girl!

My beliefs have "evolved" over the past few years...

I used to "tow the line" regarding the Christian belief -- that salvation was like an exclusive club, and you had to believe a certain way, and that most of the world was exempt...

The problem, for me, was that most of the folks who were "in" the club, and should thus follow Jesus (as in love God with everything you've got, and love your neighbors, i.e., the rest of the world, as yourself) -- sure didn't act very loving. Not even toward others "in the club"...

I still believe Jesus, when He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me..."

ONLY, I no longer believe that most of us, including His followers, are able to understand the fullness of that statement. I believe He came to save THE WORLD, all of it -- and it's about more than saving individual people into an exclusive club...

I believe that He speaks into more hearts than those seemingly "in the club" would recognize... and that more hearts respond to Him than many would choose to believe...

I believe He alone knows who responds to Him, love Him, and follow Him... because I believe that He alone can see into the hearts -- where it counts.

I believe that there is much ascribed to Him that has nothing to do with Him, and more to do with cultures, traditions, and man-made (& man-limited) beliefs about Him. I believe He transcends all cultures, all traditions, and all beliefs...

I believe that He cannot be fit into any box, any category, any sort of understanding of Him that's limited to my, or anyone else's finite mind.

I believe He's far more mysterious than any of us imagine, far more loving than any of us dare imagine, and far more available than many of us have dared to imagine...

I believe that the Gospel (the Good News) is much larger and more far-reaching than what I've been taught...

...I've been letting God teach me about Himself -- it's beyond amazing.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Salvation » Phillipa

Posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 22:43:55

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 13:28:41

"The Road Less Travelled"
Is this the book?

 

Re: Salvation » rayww

Posted by Phillipa on April 10, 2005, at 23:06:01

In reply to Re: Salvation » Phillipa, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 22:43:55

Yes, if it's by Scott Peck. He's written several others also. The Bed By the Window was really one that makes you think. It's very contraversail to say the least. Fondly,Phillipa

 

Re: Salvation » rayww

Posted by SLS on April 11, 2005, at 7:31:03

In reply to Salvation, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 8:54:54

I am having a difficult time pondering the question of salvation because I am unclear as to what anyone would need salvation from.

What are we being saved from?

If you could clarify this for me, I would be better able to collect my thoughts and perhaps share them.

Thanks.


- Scott

 

Re: Salvation » SLS

Posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 9:41:52

In reply to Re: Salvation » rayww, posted by SLS on April 11, 2005, at 7:31:03

Scott -

Thanks for (daring) to ask such an obvious, and yet profound question...

As a long-time Christian, my knee-jerk reaction would be to answer with the "typical" response that "most" Christians give (as we've been taught to give...)

That would be something like this, "Salvation is to be saved from the penalty of our sins -- which is death - eternal death and separation from God -- commonly referred to as 'hell'."

They would go on to elaborate that Jesus is the Son of God, who lived a perfect sinless life, and who then voluntarily "paid the price" for all of our sins, by dying a substitutionary death on the cross, taking each of our places, as it were, so that we could each escape from eternal punishment, and thus, live with God forever in heaven.

The "trick" is -- each of us would then be responsible to recognize our need for a savior (due to having each sinned, and for even each being born as a sinner - "imperfect"), to recognize that Jesus has made this sacrificial act on our behalf, and to then, out of gratitude and faith, choose to believe that He did this for us, and so we then "accept" this gift, and "make Him our personal savior".

Thus, we are considered "saved", and have eternal life with God guaranteed.

This is what I've been taught in churches, and -- with varying degrees of subtle differences -- what MOST of those who call themselves Christians believe.


However, my own journey has been delving a bit deeper into the whole doctrine of hell, where it originated from, how it's understood, what Jesus meant by some of his statements regarding hell, and, right now -- I no longer know precisely what I believe...

I do believe that Jesus came to save the world from sin and it's effects: destruction, poverty, injustice, hatred, pride, death, cruelty, and judgement.

But I believe that we've somehow, historically, "missed the point" in many ways...

The "Christianity" that we adhere to seems to have been turned into an exclusive "club" -- where some are "in" and others are "out"... and those who are "in" feel superior to those who are "out", and loudly and pridefully TELL them so. Then, there's the problem with all the various factions within the "club" -- differing parts fighting with others -- fighting about often meaningless details -- even fighting to the death of the other ... name calling, insults, curses... All - scandalously! - "in the name of Jesus"...

AND, it's not as though the lives of those who are "in" look any better than the lives of those who are "out"... the "insiders" struggle with the same issues, the same failings, the same problems as those who are "outside". It's just that the "insiders" feel more shame and guilt than those who are "outsiders". And because they believe they SHOULD look and feel better than those on the outside, they repress their struggles to the point that they live in denial -- and the whole system lives in this sort of "put on your happy-face and pretend that everything is ok, because so much is at stake if we dared to be real..."

I don't want to be alligned to that "club" anymore. I want to love and follow Jesus, but not in THAT way.

It's a scary place to be - to dare to question the status quo of what others have taught me -- that which I've swallowed unquestionably (and, was even subtley warned to NOT QUESTION), and to trust that all Truth can withstand any amount of questioning...

... if it's truly True, it will survive. And that which falls away -- well, that was never true to begin with, was it?

I just want truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... so help me God!

I realize that I didn't really answer your question, SLS, but even Jesus usually replied to questions with yet another question of our own.

I believe that He wants us to think - to explore our faith, to delve into what we think we understand, to truly OWN what we belive, rather than just blindly follow what those who went before us did and repeated.

And to perhaps face that so much truth is truly mysterious... beyond understanding, comprehension, beyond categorizing, labeling and filing away in our own little box...

I highly recommed a series of books that I've been reading, by Brian McLaren. It's a trilogy. The first is, "A New Kind of Christian" (I hope I'm doing these double-quotes right!) The second is, "The Story We Find Ourselves In", and the third is "The Last Word and the Word After That"

It's hinged upon the post-modern world that we're emerging into, and how Christianity is, for the most part, striving to hold on to a "1950's modernism" that's fading away...

... therefore, what's truly true -- what will transcend the era, what's truly "of God", and what is merely part of the modern era...?

A MOST challenging read!

Keep asking those questions! Keep on seeking! Keep on knocking on the door!

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by rayww on April 11, 2005, at 11:14:43

In reply to Re: Salvation » rayww, posted by SLS on April 11, 2005, at 7:31:03

> I am having a difficult time pondering the question of salvation because I am unclear as to what anyone would need salvation from.
>
> What are we being saved from?
>
> If you could clarify this for me, I would be better able to collect my thoughts and perhaps share them.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott


Dena is very good at expressing religious thought. According to my belief, I would only add one thing to what she has written about salvation, well maybe two for just now. Unless 3 & 4 come to mind while writing : )

One: Salvation means eternal life in the presence of God who also is our Father in Heaven.

Explanation: Mormon theology teaches that as spirits, we came to earth from Heaven “trailing clouds of glory”. It teaches that we as spirit children, were already a family in heaven before we were born. . Since marriage is central to family, ordained of God, and meant to be eternal, it stands to reason that our Father in Heaven would have by his side and be “one with” our Mother in Heaven, even though she is never mentioned in any scripture. We as a human family are actually spirit brothers and sisters, sons and daughters of a loving Father and Mother in heaven and wish to all return to dwell in their presence. This is a portion of what has been revealed about heaven to modern Prophets. Christianity rejects this modern revelation about God, therefore does not acknowledge us as Christian.

What are we being saved from? Satan. Some refer to living in the presence of Satan for eternity as hell, and believe that hell is the inner torment that comes from knowing what we might have been, might have had, if only. If only is a lonely phrase. Satan hates us and wants us to be miserable like unto himself. Satan is quick to claim his prey.

I want to expose the faith and folly of all belief, including my own if you wish to think of it as folly. I choose to think of folly as fally - - anything that trips you and makes you fall. Faith is anything that picks you up and helps you feel good about yourself. (simple terms for my simple mind)

I hope you are able to collect your own personal thoughts and when ready, share them.

 

Re: Salvation » Dena

Posted by 10derHeart on April 11, 2005, at 11:51:43

In reply to Re: Salvation » SLS, posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 9:41:52

Dena,

If I may say this....your posts here are some of the most profound, sane, well-thought-out, interesting writing I have ever had the pleasure of reading.

So glad you are posting here and I hope you continue. I am a "traditional" Christian (whatever the heck that means..), but you make me stop and think about a lot of things. Especially about what it *really* means to love and follow Jesus. And there's nothing more important to me than that, so...thank you!

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by Buckeye Fan on April 11, 2005, at 12:05:00

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by rayww on April 11, 2005, at 11:14:43

Great Thread, and good thoughts by all!

Some who have read my previous posts on this Thread and the Psycho Babble Medicine thread...are aware that I have some pretty strong convictions...and that I have been a pastor for 20 years. ( Non-denominational, Independant Local Church)

I think of myself a little differently however, than whay most probabley envision when they think of a "pastor", "preacher" or "minister"...

I enjoy questioning things.
I invite question-answer discussions.
I decided a long time ago that any Plan Of Salvation or "Truth" above all other truths...MUST
be applicable to ALL MANKIND FOR ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.

That means, assuming one believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God (and I do)...what about the 4,000 plus years of human existance BEFORE Jesus was born? ( and yes in it is my personal believe that mankind started in the Garden of Eden ( Adam & Eve) and I am willing to entertain any time period guesses between 6500 and 10,000 years, that man has existed.

Anyways...as I said...while I am a Fundemental
Bible believing Christian...I DO understand that there are alot of questions that I have never gotten the answer to....yet.
And as previously stated...I am a firm believer that God is totally Fair, Just, Righteous..and that he loves Man very much. and wants us to discover our purpose on earth, love Him with all of hearts..,.and love our Neighbor as ourselves.

So any plan that someone puts forth, must take into account several THE WHOLE History of mankind...not just our Modern day,or the history of the United States... If God is who He says He is...we are told in the Book of Romans, 1 chapter

Romans1:19
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

I have always taken that to mean that God doesnt play "Hide & Seek with us. He created us..and He desires that we get to know Him...and that He has always desired this, for all people..of all time periods.

The Earth, the Heavens, Stars, and complexities of the known Universe all point to a Intelligence Creator..in my opinion.

The Earth and the Solar Systems could no more just "come together" in any type of Big Bang...any more than you or I could explode a box containing all 26 letters of the Alphabet....
and Out Pop an Entire Book!!!!! lol
please keep posting I am enjoying ALL your ideas.

BF

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 12:22:59

In reply to Re: Salvation » Dena, posted by 10derHeart on April 11, 2005, at 11:51:43

> Dena,
>
> If I may say this....your posts here are some of the most profound, sane, well-thought-out, interesting writing I have ever had the pleasure of reading.
>
> So glad you are posting here and I hope you continue. I am a "traditional" Christian (whatever the heck that means..), but you make me stop and think about a lot of things. Especially about what it *really* means to love and follow Jesus. And there's nothing more important to me than that, so...thank you!

Oh my! I'm honored and blessed by your response.

I cringe when I think of many of my previous posts here... (you know that anyone who gets blocked for 1 week, then 2, then 4, then 8, then 16, and finally 32 weeks ... has said more than a couple of "troublesome" things...!).

I only hope - as I continually pray - that God (as He truly is, and not merely how He's been conveyed in human minds) will keep me on His path, drawing me ever-closer to Himself, ever more like Him, ever more deeply into His truth, which as Buckeyefan articulated so well, transcends all time, all eras, throughout all of history.

I just don't want to limited to a mere portion of it, due to some artificial boundaries...

I want it ALL!

It brings to mind one of my favorite songs, learned when I first met Him, and was involved in a local production of "Godspell"...

"Oh, dear Lord, three things I pray: To see Thee more clearly, Love Thee more dearly, follow Thee more nearly, day by day..."

(what a lovely song to have "stuck" in my head today!)

Thanks again, 10derHeart (great handle!) for your words, and for sharing them with me -- you brought joy to my day!

I look forward to getting to know you...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 12:27:39

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Buckeye Fan on April 11, 2005, at 12:05:00

Hi Buckeye Fan --

During my "exile" I read through PBF from time to time, and enjoyed perusing your posts...

I admire your honesty, your convictions, and your ability to articulate your thoughts. Also, you seem gentle-hearted.

I believe I like you, Buckeye Fan!


I agree with much of what you wrote -- especially the part about truth, and the plan of Jesus, transcending all of history, and being for the whole world -- even if we can't imagine HOW.

I can't help thinking of how very much you'd enjoy reading Brian McLaren's trilogy, starting with "A New Kind of Christian".

You will never be the same...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Salvation » Buckeye Fan

Posted by rayww on April 11, 2005, at 15:06:48

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Buckeye Fan on April 11, 2005, at 12:05:00

> Great Thread, and good thoughts by all
>
> I enjoy questioning things.
> I invite question-answer discussions.
> I decided a long time ago that any Plan Of Salvation or "Truth" above all other truths...MUST
> be applicable to ALL MANKIND FOR ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.
<yes

>
> That means, assuming one believes that Jesus Christ was the Son of God (and I do)...what about the 4,000 plus years of human existance BEFORE Jesus was born?
<yes

( and yes in it is my personal believe that mankind started in the Garden of Eden ( Adam & Eve) and I am willing to entertain any time period guesses between 6500 and 10,000 years, that man has existed.

<yes, that is when we agree our physical bodies began, but we also believe our spirits lived before they entered our bodies, and that same spirit (our own) will continue after our physical body is put to rest.
>
> Anyways...as I said...while I am a Fundemental
> Bible believing Christian...I DO understand that there are alot of questions that I have never gotten the answer to....yet.
> And as previously stated...I am a firm believer that God is totally Fair, Just, Righteous..and that he loves Man very much. and wants us to discover our purpose on earth, love Him with all of hearts..,.and love our Neighbor as ourselves.
<yes

> So any plan that someone puts forth, must take into account several THE WHOLE History of mankind...not just our Modern day,or the history of the United States...
<yes

If God is who He says He is...we are told in the Book of Romans, 1 chapter
>
> Romans1:19
> Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
>
> 1:20
> For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead
>
> I have always taken that to mean that God doesnt play "Hide & Seek with us. He created us..and He desires that we get to know Him...and that He has always desired this, for all people..of all time periods.
<yes


> The Earth, the Heavens, Stars, and complexities of the known Universe all point to a Intelligence Creator..in my opinion.
<yes

>
> The Earth and the Solar Systems could no more just "come together" in any type of Big Bang...any more than you or I could explode a box containing all 26 letters of the Alphabet....
> and Out Pop an Entire Book!!!!! lol
> please keep posting I am enjoying ALL your ideas.
>
> BF

YES!!!

I can answer "yes we believe the same" to much of what you and Dena write (and others). We share a common Christian philosophy, yet view authority different. I hope it is all right to note these similarities and one significant difference.

 

Re: Salvation » Dena

Posted by 10derHeart on April 11, 2005, at 16:13:03

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 12:22:59


> It brings to mind one of my favorite songs, learned when I first met Him, and was involved in a local production of "Godspell"...
>
> "Oh, dear Lord, three things I pray: To see Thee more clearly, Love Thee more dearly, follow Thee more nearly, day by day..."

I LOVE that song and haven't thought of it in years! I even remember the melody now. I hope it'll get stuck in my head, too.

> Thanks again, 10derHeart (great handle!) for your words, and for sharing them with me -- you brought joy to my day!

If I did that, then the whole day is a blessing and a success no matter what else...

> I look forward to getting to know you...

Likewise :-)


 

Re: Salvation

Posted by SLS on April 11, 2005, at 16:55:28

In reply to Salvation, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 8:54:54

Thank you, Dena and Rayww, for addressing your responses to me and helping me to understand the Christian and Mormon perspectives of Salvation.

I'm not sure this is a thread I could contribute very much to at this point. If I can garner enough mental energy to keep up with the posts, perhaps I will find myself asking more questions. For now,though, I see no need for a salvation from things that we have already been forgiven for. I don't know where this leaves Hitler. I can't imagine even God forgiving him. But then again, God is quite a bit larger than anything my human mind could conjure through imagination.


- Scott

 

Re: Salvation

Posted by used2b on April 12, 2005, at 21:05:54

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by Dena on April 11, 2005, at 12:22:59

I was forcibly indoctrinated in Christian rites as a very young child. We were forced to accept that salvation was an alternative to eternal seperation from their god.

We were taught that sin, which includes virtually any mistake including having been born, is universally punishable by death, and that the reason people die is because they are bad. Though there were various theologies associated with various groups, salvation was generally represented as joining a Christian sect, which would supposedly save us from eternal torture.

 

Re: Salvation » used2b

Posted by Dena on April 13, 2005, at 9:28:01

In reply to Re: Salvation, posted by used2b on April 12, 2005, at 21:05:54

> I was forcibly indoctrinated in Christian rites as a very young child. We were forced to accept that salvation was an alternative to eternal seperation from their god.
>
> We were taught that sin, which includes virtually any mistake including having been born, is universally punishable by death, and that the reason people die is because they are bad. Though there were various theologies associated with various groups, salvation was generally represented as joining a Christian sect, which would supposedly save us from eternal torture.

My heart goes out to you! What a horrible way to introduce a young child to the concept of a loving God...!

The message of the Good News -- that God loves the world (the WHOLE world), and wanted to be among us, so that we could get to know Him (which is why He sent Jesus), got horribly lost in the message that this same loving God somehow wants to TORTURE people, just because they were born and made mistakes...

NOT the Good News at all!

I'm so sorry that you had that experience -- one that I imagine scarred you badly...

Having been "in those same circles" for many years, I can empathize.

I hope that you, and I, and all others who long to connect with a supreme Someone who loves us (& delights in us!) will find that Someone.

Thanks for daring to write about your own experience. I only wish that more Christians could see how badly they represent God...

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Salvation » Dena

Posted by used2b on April 13, 2005, at 22:28:09

In reply to Re: Salvation » used2b, posted by Dena on April 13, 2005, at 9:28:01


> I'm so sorry that you had that experience -- one that I imagine scarred you badly...

It probably confused me but I can't tell if my confusion is a scar or if I was born this way. Maybe everybody is confused.

The force by which i was indoctrinated, as I recalled after the post was irrevocably published, was usually domestic. We were at times treated as bad kids at home for no reason apparent to me, and dutiful participation in religious rites was a way of towing the line in hopes of not suffering domestic violence. Otherwise, it was a sober, considerate, polite family.

Recovery, such as it is, from whatever confusion the experience might have caused involved reassessing not just the gospel, but the history of the entire publication by which we were indoctrinated. That meant reconsidering the Abrahamic construct of a chosen people. The only way I can make that seem true now, is to say, "Okay, Abe's children are god's chosen, but so are all the others." But I'm not sure that's what the documents really say in that part about all the stars bowing down to the one star.

And then to make true the construct of the Hebrew royal being god's way of telling us he loves us, I need to say, "Okay, he was a very helpful fellow, as the stories represent him, but if god is all love he sent everyone here to demonstrate his love, and caused everything that happens to us to happen out of love." Then it becomes "God sent the tsunami because god loves us," and "God sent Hitler because god loves us."


> Thanks for daring to write about your own experience. I only wish that more Christians could see how badly they represent God...
>
> Shalom, Dena


The most daring thing is writing on this board, without any well-defined guidelines for style, and where almost any statement can be deemed offensive if the administrator decides so. But I don't have much to lose, so it doesn't take that much courage. Courage often arises from fatigue, so it probably indicates fatigue from trying to satisfy unreasonable caretakers. Fortunately, my original caretakers learned to be much more reasonable with me and with each other after they no longer felt responsible for me.


p.s. If my reference to skepticism about the Abrahamic tradition, combined with the proposal that "god sent hitler" troubles you, rest assured -- if hitler and his ilk give any children of Abraham any more trouble such as they have before, I'll give my life to stop it, if that's what it takes. And I do mean ALL of Abe's children. So while I don't claim "salvation," I can't claim that I didn't learn self-sacrifice in Sunday school, which influenced me as a developing child.

 

Re: Salvation » used2b

Posted by rayww on April 14, 2005, at 11:31:05

In reply to Re: Salvation » Dena, posted by used2b on April 13, 2005, at 22:28:09

You have explained some things that many will relate to. In fact, you have explained them better than I have ever read. Thank-you for sharing the story of your spiritual abuse. It may be significant.

In a book I am reading, ""Angels and Demons" a couple of thoughts that may relate to your experience -- someone asked: do you have children? do you love them? do you want to step in the way of harm? do you let them skatebord? God has children. He loves them (us). Because of His love for us he gives us freedom to choose for ourselves, and even lets us skateboard. He believes that we learn from our mistakes and from the mistakes of others. When we get too far removed from him, he tries to get our attention. "Blessed are those who can humble themselves without being compelled". He is certainly watching over, and will let us go on so long, but eventually he will demand our attention in His own way and in His own time through ways that he has control over.

We must remember that God sees the whole picture, and death, when it is according to his plan, and not hastened by ours, brings people home to Him. Natural disasters get the attention of the survivors, and increases compassion in the onlookers. If we die in our sins, well, no comment on that, but we have always had the warning, "today is the day to prepare to meet God". Putting off repentance is like gambling with the Lord. The stakes are high and the recovery may be very long. The next step will be far easier if we prepare while we have a body that we can master. That's the simple purpose of life according to the plan of salvation that I believe. "prepare to meet God"
rayww
(used2B Christian, would you like scripture references?)

>
> > I'm so sorry that you had that experience -- one that I imagine scarred you badly...
>
> It probably confused me but I can't tell if my confusion is a scar or if I was born this way. Maybe everybody is confused.
>
> The force by which i was indoctrinated, as I recalled after the post was irrevocably published, was usually domestic. We were at times treated as bad kids at home for no reason apparent to me, and dutiful participation in religious rites was a way of towing the line in hopes of not suffering domestic violence. Otherwise, it was a sober, considerate, polite family.
>
> Recovery, such as it is, from whatever confusion the experience might have caused involved reassessing not just the gospel, but the history of the entire publication by which we were indoctrinated. That meant reconsidering the Abrahamic construct of a chosen people. The only way I can make that seem true now, is to say, "Okay, Abe's children are god's chosen, but so are all the others." But I'm not sure that's what the documents really say in that part about all the stars bowing down to the one star.
>
> And then to make true the construct of the Hebrew royal being god's way of telling us he loves us, I need to say, "Okay, he was a very helpful fellow, as the stories represent him, but if god is all love he sent everyone here to demonstrate his love, and caused everything that happens to us to happen out of love." Then it becomes "God sent the tsunami because god loves us," and "God sent Hitler because god loves us."
>
>
> > Thanks for daring to write about your own experience. I only wish that more Christians could see how badly they represent God...
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
>
> The most daring thing is writing on this board, without any well-defined guidelines for style, and where almost any statement can be deemed offensive if the administrator decides so. But I don't have much to lose, so it doesn't take that much courage. Courage often arises from fatigue, so it probably indicates fatigue from trying to satisfy unreasonable caretakers. Fortunately, my original caretakers learned to be much more reasonable with me and with each other after they no longer felt responsible for me.
>
>
> p.s. If my reference to skepticism about the Abrahamic tradition, combined with the proposal that "god sent hitler" troubles you, rest assured -- if hitler and his ilk give any children of Abraham any more trouble such as they have before, I'll give my life to stop it, if that's what it takes. And I do mean ALL of Abe's children. So while I don't claim "salvation," I can't claim that I didn't learn self-sacrifice in Sunday school, which influenced me as a developing child.
>

 

Knowledge is my Salvation

Posted by 64bowtie on May 8, 2005, at 11:47:48

In reply to Salvation, posted by rayww on April 10, 2005, at 8:54:54

Since I know so little about the entire Universe, somewhere in all that knowledge about the Universe is the knowledge that might work in my un-certain life in this un-certain World in this un-certain Universe...

Thus, knowledge is my Salvation against the un-certainty...

Rod


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