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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 18:45:57
all the way into the future, then how do we have freedom to choose what we are going to do next?
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2005, at 19:48:55
In reply to If god knows everything that is going to happen, posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 18:45:57
As a process theologian, that is not my belief.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:04:01
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2005, at 19:48:55
Then that one aint gonna be a problem for you :-)
Whats a 'process theologian'?
Posted by Snoozin on January 12, 2005, at 8:50:27
In reply to If god knows everything that is going to happen, posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 18:45:57
> all the way into the future, then how do we have freedom to choose what we are going to do next?
<<I have had it explained to me that we still have free choice to do what we want to do. But God is all-knowing and *knows* what we will choose to do, but doesn't necessarily *influence* our actions.
I of course don't know if this is right or not, but I was comfortable with that explanation.
Susan
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2005, at 19:15:44
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 21:04:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology
As always, the disclaimer is that this is my belief only and does not reflect a conviction that others do or should share my belief.
And I guess I'm not a strict process theologian either. As with many things, parts of it tie in with my highly individual personal theology, others don't. But a lot do.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 15, 2005, at 20:48:13
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » alexandra_k, posted by Snoozin on January 12, 2005, at 8:50:27
>I have had it explained to me that we still have free choice to do what we want to do. But God is all-knowing and *knows* what we will choose to do, but doesn't necessarily *influence* our actions.
Yeah, after some thought I suppose we can have free will and that isn't necessarily inconsistent with gods foreknowledge. I mean, if the past is fixed then you should be able to predict the movements of our bodies as physical objects into the future. So if we knew everything about physics then we could predict the future - maybe thats how god gets his foreknowledge :-)
But with or without god, I guess there is the same problem for everyone.
I think I agree with you, we can still have freedom.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 15, 2005, at 20:48:37
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on January 12, 2005, at 19:15:44
Thanks Dinah, hadn't heard of that one :-)
Posted by SLS on February 8, 2005, at 13:21:53
In reply to If god knows everything that is going to happen, posted by alexandra_k on January 11, 2005, at 18:45:57
> all the way into the future, then how do we have freedom to choose what we are going to do next?
This is too long, redundant and a bit covoluted. It's the best I could do on such short notice, though. :-)
I tend to gravitate toward the duality idea. Both free will and fatalism occur at the same time. In this regard it is like light. Light exists as a wave and a stream of particles simultaneously, but we can only ascertain one at any one moment in time. It has a dual nature. The Creator has endowed us with absolute free will and a mind to exercise it. You are going to be able to process feelings and thoughts and act upon them independent of others, even if your behaviors are coerced by others. There is a cause and effect that remains uninterrupted by a special act of divinity (one that lies outside the laws of physics and the cosmology of the Universe as God created it), even though all acts are the result of divinity. Of course God knows in advance how you are going to exercise your free will. Free will and fatalism exist simultaneously. God set matter and energy into motion at the moment the Universe was born. He knows the paths of each entity and the interactions each will have with others as they proceed through existence over time.
To know why we are allowed to exist within such a paradox is to know the Mind of God. However, the duality of existence is, to me, perfection.
You can still choose your path in life as if fatalism were not operating. The billiard balls will still end up being precisely where God wanted them to be from the beginning. Afterall, He set them into motion.
- Scott
Posted by Buckeye Fan on February 12, 2005, at 6:03:40
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » alexandra_k, posted by SLS on February 8, 2005, at 13:21:53
This is an intriguing subject....and has been debated by theologians and laymen for centuries.
Basically the trouble is this...how can WE have freewill...and at the same time God predict with 100 percent reliability, future events. ( case in point...there are 212 DIRECT and SPECIFIC prophecies concerning the birth of The Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Every single one of these were fulfilled to the last detail.
And yet....each human being was allowed freewill
prior to His birth.The Bible teaches us that one of Gods's characteristics is Omnicience. He is all-knowing.
The easy part to understand is that He stands outside time and space as The Creator of Heaven and Earth....much the way an author of a book stands outside the actions of the characters within the book.
God doesnt FORCE outcomes...but He knows what the outcome will be.
He has the ability to forsee the results of our choices.
Thats the easy part.What has troubled students of the Bible and Christians of all ages is HOW He is able to make predicted prophesy come to pass...even tho man has freewill.
Thats the real question my mind cannot grasp...
Buckeye Fan
Posted by rayww on February 12, 2005, at 20:11:03
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen, posted by Buckeye Fan on February 12, 2005, at 6:03:40
God has a master plan for his creations. He planned that we would all return to live in his presence, and he has a master plan for each one of us. Because of free agency, we have the choice to accept or reject the plan. If I may use Joseph Smith as a domumented example, he was told by God on several occasions that if he did not remain faithful that God would use someone else. god's work will be done on earth according to his plan, and if we fail, he will call someone else to fill in. some people believe that God knows what we will choose, and that may be so, but perhaps it is based on choices made by our great grand parents, or by a king many generations earlier.
some things are relatively easy to predict. When a nation turns its back on God and follows false idols, that nation will eventually fall. If a nation turns toward God it will prosper (America) but if it turns its back on God and removes his name from schools, dictionaries, poems, songs, celebrations, that nation is on a dangerous path. If a religion turns away from God it will not have the ability to follow true principles.
These things are quite predictable based upon decisions made along the way by government. I look forward to the day when governments will be established upon principles of love and concern for the better good of the masses, rather than sacrificing what is of the best good for the most people in order to satisfy the voiciferous demands of the minorities. I think that day is coming, but I don't know what the earth will have to go through to get there. It's getting kind of scary isn't it.
I have no problem believing that God knows the end from the beginning. God's will be done.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 12, 2005, at 21:44:34
In reply to Re: If god knows everything that is going to happen » Buckeye Fan, posted by rayww on February 12, 2005, at 20:11:03
rayww,
You wrote,[...rather than sacrificing... in order to satisfy the... damands of the minorities..].
Could you identify who these minorities are?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2005, at 18:46:06
In reply to Lou's request to rayww for identification-minr » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on February 12, 2005, at 21:44:34
> You wrote,[...rather than sacrificing... in order to satisfy the... damands of the minorities..].
> Could you identify who these minorities are?Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding damands of minorities to Psycho-Babble Politics. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050122/msgs/457852.html
Thanks,
Bob
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