Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 408646

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Re: thanks (nm) » Jai Narayan

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 19, 2004, at 7:26:46

In reply to Re: please be supportive, posted by Jai Narayan on November 18, 2004, at 12:38:47

 

Redirect: insitutions of religion

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 19, 2004, at 7:33:02

In reply to please be supportive - I continue to be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by 64bowtie on November 18, 2004, at 16:19:29

> Do you see no difference between the insitution of religion (like a city or a nation) and an individuals religious adherence to a particular faith?

I responded over at PB Administration. Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/417806.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 18, 2004, at 23:16:54

> In your opinion is it:
> 1. Because in your opinion they are all wrong?
> 2. Because you don't want to know any different?
> 3. Because you don't believe there is one true church?
> 4. Even if there was one true church you wouldn't care?
> 5. All of the above.
> 6. None of the above.

I'll try to explain, though I don't intend to stay on the faith board too long. I should not have inferred that my experience with the Catholic church was the only reason I don't look for truth in organized religion, what it was was that my experience with it, caused me to look at institutions of religion in a different way.

I don't have a problem with God, or with Jesus or with other religions
I have a problem with what has been done to women, and to natives, to homosexuals in the name of of God. I feel that there is an innate truth in the symbolism of modern religion and ancient spirituality that transcends
mankinds current concretization of good and evil, I think love transcends that, I think kindness does.
I think it's of like the blind man and the elephant, everyone has a piece of the truth and thinks they are describing the entire experience. I don't have a need to learn to judge people, or to hate, or to convert someone to my beliefs. I don't think my God thinks that way. My god doesn't worry about Churches or correct names, or spelling, or male or female. I think that is more all too human judgement, the values of the time, being reflected in religious text.

 

Thank you (nm) » Gabbix2

Posted by rayww on November 19, 2004, at 16:04:01

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww, posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

 

Thanks for asking! (nm) » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 16:28:39

In reply to Thank you (nm) » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 19, 2004, at 16:04:01

 

Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2

Posted by rayww on November 20, 2004, at 11:06:18

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » rayww, posted by Gabbix2 on November 19, 2004, at 15:15:31

All you say is good.
Love is good.
Kindness is good.
Your God is good.
there is an element that transcends all goodness, but it is still good, isn't it?

People have a tendency to "invent" their own God, and perhaps that is good also, "but" IF there is a real God, and IF He did indeed create the universe and all that is herein, all we can ever hope to be able to do, until we see him face to face, is innvent our own concept of Him. That is mostly good also, because at least we are clinging to that hope that somewhere out there is a God who loves and cares about His handiwork.

Everyone has the right to say "my" god this or that, and believe in their own god, and if it helps them to be more true to themselves, that is good. But, like you say, if their God tells them to do hateful things to women, homosexuals, or tells them they are better than others, that is evil. Satan tries to mask himself as God, and often succeeds. If there is good, there is also evil, otherwise how would we know there was good?

It is good that others are venturing into the faith forum to examine their own faith issues. I encourage everyone on PB to do that at some point. It is a mentally healthful thing to do. I could say that I have no faith issues, but without exception, every topic I write to adds to my understanding. So, even though we think we may have no issues, none of us know everything there is to know about faith and religion. There is no end to understanding and knowledge. Only beginnings.

 

Re: Faith is not an end. » rayww

Posted by Gabbix2 on November 20, 2004, at 14:36:38

In reply to Re: Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Gabbix2, posted by rayww on November 20, 2004, at 11:06:18

> All you say is good.
> Love is good.
> Kindness is good.
> Your God is good.
> there is an element that transcends all goodness, but it is still good, isn't it?

I had to change that subject line, I don't believe faith can be reduced to a tool..at least in the way I understand tools!

I am in complete agreement with what you have to say, it's all a beginning which is why I don't look for the "one true church" but love to explore and appreciate different faiths.
It's also why I love what Jai put so beautifully
"Amen God, who can argue with Amen?"

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:27:47

In reply to Your own resurrection » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 11:22:22

> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22as+in+Adam%22&search.x=31&search.y=10

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Acts 4: 12? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:37:30

In reply to By and through Christ » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 23:58:23

> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=wrought+redemption+christ&search.x=31&search.y=10

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Mosiah 3: 12? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that again » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:49:56

In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 2, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:53:19

> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessing
> http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so as not to imply that there's only one way to avoid the lake of fire and brimstone or to enter into the celestial kingdom? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that

Posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:34:35

In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:27:47

>rayww,
You wrote,[...my understanding that the jews don't believe in {the} resurrection...].
Are you referring to a spacific resurrection? If so, could you specify the resurrection that you are referring to? If you could clarify this, then I could have the opportunity to reply accordingly.
Lou

<
People of my faith believe that our spirits have always existed, and will forever. Therefore, the resurrection I am referring to is our own. We also believe that the word, "create" means to organize eternal matter into something.
(eternal: e·ter·nal adj
1. lasting for all time without beginning or end
2. unaffected by the passage of time
3. seeming to go on for ever or recur incessantly (informal)

n
something that exists everlastingly

It's a little hard to define without http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/1/1#1

> > http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22as+in+Adam%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Acts 4: 12? Thanks,
>
> Bob

 

Re: please revise that again » Dr. Bob

Posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:38:49

In reply to Re: please revise that again » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:49:56

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=jacob+6%3A12&search.x=31&search.y=10

> > http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessing
> > http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so as not to imply that there's only one way to avoid the lake of fire and brimstone or to enter into the celestial kingdom? Thanks,
>
> Bob

 

Re: please revise that

Posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:45:26

In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2004, at 8:37:30

By: the plan was created by Christ
Through: resurrection is wrought through Him.
rayww.


> > http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=wrought+redemption+christ&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Mosiah 3: 12? Thanks,
>
> Bob

 

Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 22, 2004, at 10:59:58

In reply to Re: please revise that, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:34:35

rayww,
You wrote,[...my understanding that the jews do not believe in the resurrection...]. You later identified that resurrection as being our own.
Could you identify what causes you to have the understanding that you have, that the jews do not believe in the resurrection? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou

 

Re: thanks (nm) » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2004, at 21:51:03

In reply to Re: please revise that, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:45:26

 

Re: Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 21:53:07

In reply to Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 22, 2004, at 10:59:58

Lou, I visited the Holy Land a few years ago, and somewhere there was told that the Jews believe that when you are dead, you are dead. The scriptures say the Saducees didn't believe in the resurrection, but the Pharasies did, so I guess there must be two different opinions. Here's one:
http://scriptures.lds.org/mark/12/18-27#18

What is your belief concerning the resurrection Lou?
I wish you could join with me in happiness and anticipation for the future according to prophesy.
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates$fn=default.htm$xhitlist_q=jews%20resurrection$xhitlist_
If you hit back-arrow, there is an article from which this scripture was quoted, that tells more. People of my faith believe that the Jews have suffered enough, and now is the time for prophesy to be fulfilled. I think these are wonderful prophesies.


> rayww,
> You wrote,[...my understanding that the jews do not believe in the resurrection...]. You later identified that resurrection as being our own.
> Could you identify what causes you to have the understanding that you have, that the jews do not believe in the resurrection? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> Lou
>

 

Re: Lou's response to rayww-~resjw

Posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 21:58:52

In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 21:53:07

I messed up the link on that last one. sorry.

 

Lou's reply to rayww-phrhyp » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 23, 2004, at 10:15:49

In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 21:53:07

rayww,
You replied to me with a link offered and the link shows a chapter from the christiandom bible. In it ,verse 15 writes,[...knowing their {hypocrisy}...].
Could you clarify what that verse means in relation to {their hypocrisy}?If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20041120/msgs/419141.html

 

Re: Lou's reply to rayww-phrhyp » Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on November 23, 2004, at 20:09:37

In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-phrhyp » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 23, 2004, at 10:15:49

Lou, the reference did not include verse 15, but since you have asked, I will answer. I hope you will also answer and describe your definition and opinion of the word, "resurrection".

Verse 15:
The Pharasies were being hypocritical in that they were pretending to be religious by asking Jesus questions - not because they wanted to be taught by him, but because they were looking for ways to condemn Him. In other words they were tyring to trick Jesus into stating something that would get Him banned.

The Pharasies, Saducees (and Scribes) and King Herod felt threatened by the rumors that there was a person of supreme power living in their area. If you recall, all the babies two years of age and under were put to death after Jesus' birth, http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/2/13-18#13, and then later, around three years after he entered public life He was crucified.

A hypocrite by Bible Dictionary definition is:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bdh/hypcrt

You think of the New Testament as the Christiandom Bible, but it was written by the Jews. Every single one of the writers in the Christiandom Bible is Jewish, even Paul, and does the world appreciate the Bible or the Jews?http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22what+thank+they+the+jews%22&search.x=29&search.y=10

Thankyou for the Bible Lou.

 

Lou's reply to rayww » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 24, 2004, at 7:54:51

In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-phrhyp » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 23, 2004, at 20:09:37

rayww,
You wrote,[...the pharisees... were looking for a way to condemn Him....felt threatened by rumors that there was a person of supreme power...all babies under 2 years of age were put to death after Jesus' birth...and later... He was crucified...].
Are you saying that the pharisees had a part in the crucifiction of Him? If you could answer that, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2004, at 21:57:46

In reply to Re: please revise that, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 8:34:35

> It's a little hard to define without http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/1/1#1

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, paragraph 6? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2004, at 21:58:20

In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww-~resjw » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 22, 2004, at 21:53:07

> http://scriptures.lds.org/mark/12/18-27#18

Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, paragraph 32? Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: please revise that » Dr. Bob

Posted by rayww on December 9, 2004, at 15:28:57

In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2004, at 21:58:20

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22Sadducees%2C+which%22&search.x=26&search.y=9

 

Re: please revise that » Dr. Bob

Posted by rayww on December 9, 2004, at 16:23:45

In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2004, at 21:57:46

http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/1/7-41#7

This revelation to Moses in my opinion is one of the greatest of all time. People of my faith believe it was hidden (taken) from the earth for many centuries, but is now back, so I'm guessing God thinks people of my faith and others are ready for it.
I'm sorry I can't get rid of just verse 6. If you don't go snooping, you brouser should only display verse 6-41. See, I even left out 42.

Just a note: Scripture "verses" aren't written in paragraphs because scripture is art, specifically poetry in motion, and inspiration comes through the spirit, therefore it is art, and is not all together understood through words, or written in paragraphs, and if you take note, there are some v-e-r-y long sentences in the scriptures.


 

Re: revised

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 11, 2004, at 3:05:02

In reply to Re: please revise that » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on December 9, 2004, at 16:23:45

> I'm sorry I can't get rid of just verse 6.

Here, this seems to work:

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22unto+Moses+at%22

> Just a note: Scripture "verses" aren't written in paragraphs

Got it, thanks!

Bob


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