Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 408646

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Re: please revise that: Part 1 » Dr. Bob

Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23

In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55

I am assuming that you have reference to the word, "Jew" in Jacob 4:15, but that being so, perhaps what I should do is make an attempt to explain the significance of that scripture to the Jews. Did you know that Mormons and Jews are the only two religions that fully accept their common ground foundation in the Old Testament? I absolutely guarantee Mormons are not anti-Semitic. We acknowledge the Abrahamic covenant, and birthright.

God covenanted with Abraham that his seed would be blessed and as innumerable as the sands of the sea. We suspect that nearly every nation on earth today has Abraham's seed mixed with theirs in fulfillment of that covenant. If you would like to study the Abrahamic covenant, here are a few (hundred) scriptures.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query? words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Search

end of part 1. Please keep reading - - I haven't revised yet.

> > http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Jacob 4: 15? Thanks,
>
> Bob

 

Re: please revise that: Part 1 link correction

Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 19:04:23

In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 1 » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Search

 

Re: If not, how do you get faith? » rayww

Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2004, at 11:51:18

In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 17:56:06

> Ah, common ground at last. I can go for that.
> rayww

> > I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.

> > I know, how about both?

Yay! (Took me long enough) :-)
That was a good question indeed.

 

Re: thanks (nm) » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2004, at 0:00:26

In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 3 » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:18:41

 

Lou's response to rayww » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 9, 2004, at 20:50:10

In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 2, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:53:19

> Part 2
> Next time you see green olives, think of how God serves all.
>
> Olive 1: Grandfather and the Green Olives
>
> Everyone in my family loves green olives. If we have a family dinner and forget the green olives, we soon hear about it. The other day my mother asked me if I could remember Grandpa bringing us children green olives. We lived on a farm where my grandparents lived in one house and our family lived across the yard. There was one car between us and it was his. Grandpa had meetings to go to in town and would quite often bring us a treat. He did not believe in spoiling children with candy, so his treat was often a bottle of green olives. We grew up thinking of green olives as a treat.
>
> The parallel here is that God serves us by doing what is best for us, not necessarily what we think we would like. We can learn to love the green olives of life.
>
> Olive 2: The Allegory of the Olive Tree: - - God serves by gathering His people (including the Jews)
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22how+oft+would+I%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
> In the allegory of the olive tree, the ancient Prophet, Zenos describes the gathering process of the House of Israel. As is described here allegorically, God never gives up until he succeeds. The Jews and the whole House of Israel have great promise.
>
> The Olive Tree:
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4 preamble
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/5 The allegory
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessing
>
> Olive 3: "The Olive Leaf" God serves us by giving us peace eventually casting Satan out of our midst forever.
> The Olive Leaf:
> In December 1832 the United States of America and the world and the church was in quite a sad state of affairs.
> http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html
>
> On Christmas day 1832 Joseph Smith received the “war prophesy”, in which he prophesied the coming civil war, and other calamities. Two days later he received the “peace prophesy”
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=d%26c+88&search.x=31&search.y=10
> He affectionately named this revelation “The Olive Leaf” plucked from the Tree of Paradise. It must have brought him great peace at the time because there was a lot of persecution and destruction happening right then. People of my faith believe these two revelations actually came from God.
>
> Bob, under the circumstances and coincidences of faith, I feel this has to be included in the preamble of my revise. If you would like further clarification……..first please explain why Jacob 4:15 caught your attention. Then, perhaps if y[L]ou could read from there to the end of the allegory in Chapter 5 and the explanation in chapter 6, I hope you would receive understanding that this is in no way antiSemitic. Thank-you.
>
> al·le·go·ry n
> 1. a work in which the characters and events are to be understood as representing other things and symbolically expressing a deeper, often spiritual, moral, or political meaning
> 2. the symbolic expression of a deeper meaning through a story or scene acted out by human, animal, or mythical characters
> 3. allegories considered as a literary or artistic genre
> 4. a symbolic representation of something

rayww,
In your post above there isa link under "Olive 3". When you click on that a page comes up and if you scroll down to P:314 there is a paragraph and in it reads:
[....be baptized in the name of ...The Son..and recieve the ordanance...of him who is ordained...the {only way} man can enter into the celestial kingdom...]. Could you clarify if this statement in question means that jews and others that do not get[... baptized in the name ...of the Son...and do not receive the ordanance...of him who is ordained..] can not enter the celestial kingdom?
If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html

 

Re: Lou's response to rayww

Posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 0:47:16

In reply to Lou's response to rayww » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 9, 2004, at 20:50:10

It is my understanding that the Jews don't believe in the resurrection. therefore, no matter what my answer, it would be invalidated by your belief. so, because I'm not quite sure why you are asking such a question, and recall that you requested I not write to you, I shall answer it in the words of Jesus.
Eph. 4: 5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Lou if I felt you were sincere we might enter a discussion, but you have given me reason to mistrust your intent. I am near certain you are attempting to trick me into stating that in order to enter the highest degree of exaltation one must be baptized. To enter the heaven that is taught and believed by most religions, baptism is not necessary. Neither is marriage for that matter, but to enter the highest, where God himself dwells, marriage and baptism are recorded and in effect eternally. What else might be the point of earthly baptism, if not for a heavenly reward? If baptism can procure such position, then certainly the ordinance of marriage should also. Why else would God be so specific in describing the sanctity of marriage, if it didn't have eternal consequense? Families can be together forever. #188
http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchalpha/1,17929,4958-1-2,00.html#nullLink

Do you want to believe in eternal family? Then the Lord will show you how it can happen. Do you want to believe in a family that is disolved at the time of death? Then, so be that also. There will not be marrying in heaven because marriage is performed on earth. There is a kingdom for everyone, according to their belief, room for all you might say. You get pretty much what you believe in. Unless, you don't believe in the resurrection, because whether you believe or not, everyone will be resurrected. Resurrection is real Lou. Total 100% restoration of all that was lost at death.

When I say we will all get according to our belief, that is not to say all will not have the opportunity at some point to knowingly make a choice. Everyone, including the Jews will cross that bridge. All will have the opportunity to one day look Jesus in the eye and say
"My Lord, My God".
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/5/9#9

And.....there is absolutely nothing anti-semitic about that. It is the most all-inclusive belief there is. (some people of my faith believe all or most of the above several paragraphs, but I believe it all in my own understanding)

 

Re: please be civil » rayww

Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2004, at 8:39:19

In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww, posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 0:47:16

> Lou if I felt you were sincere we might enter a discussion, but you have given me reason to mistrust your intent. I am near certain you are attempting to trick me into stating that in order to enter the highest degree of exaltation one must be baptized.

Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or jump to conclusions about them. If you don't feel it'll lead to a discussion, maybe just don't reply?

Bob

 

Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan

Posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39

In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 1, 2004, at 22:18:54

> why is faith not definable by us?

<<< Thanx Jai. I thought I had accepted Dictionay Dot Com as the authority for this question, and we did/do define faith in any of its many iterations. When someone cannot see faith as an abstract only available to the minds of mankind, I am willing to sit, and wait, and see if perception and perspective might update.....

New list: centipedes, squids, giraffes, emus, lice, and halibut, don't connect with the concept of "faith". They may act out in a "faithly" type pattern of behavior, but they don't acknowledge us when we tell them about "faith". They are never heard or witnessed explaining faith to any other member of their species. I remain unconvinced that faith is innate and not learned. So the issue is learning. Which [nouns] learn in the abstract and which ones don't? [nouns] => people, places, things, ideas.

Rod

 

Re: Why is faith not definable??? » 64bowtie

Posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 23:21:24

In reply to Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39

I think it would be good for your community to try to define faith, but there isn't a lot of participation here.

So......you don't think animals have faith. Where does instinct come from? I always thought that the only one of God's creations that wasn't totally obedient to Him was man. Plants, animals, rocks, they all reverence and obey God. Aren't they all part of the balance of nature? Nature balances itself out in most cases, and all creatures are here for a reason. If you're not a cat how do you know they don't have faith??? I don't know how it feels to be a cat, but I know cats have feelings, and if they are capable of having feelings, why aren't they also capable of faith?

Those who believe in God also believe that all love emenates from God, even love posessed by and for animals.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/2/19#19

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=gen+6%3A7&search.x=31&search.y=10


I'm not trying to invent a topic here, or pull you away from your definition of faith. Maybe I suffer from lastwordism, along with crossbrained bipolar, and emotional dyslexia.

 

Try acceptance of the unknown » rayww

Posted by 64bowtie on November 11, 2004, at 13:54:18

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 23:21:24

> So......you don't think animals have faith. Where does instinct come from? >

<<< As I have posted in the past, instinct is from the process portion of the DNA chain molecules of every living thing. Process Genes make up about 70% of the chain molecule. Originally thought to be "junk" genes, tremendous progress has shed new light that a great amount of behavior can be biased by this process region. Free-Will for humans perhaps originates in this region. God did a good job of laying us out so we could persevere in this hostile environment. I see no connection to faith and instinct other than my faith that instincts work, ...good.

> If you're not a cat how do you know they don't have faith??? I don't know how it feels to be a cat, but I know cats have feelings, and if they are capable of having feelings, why aren't they also capable of faith?
>

<<< An intellctual "faith" can be induced. Cats do use their litter box when we induce the message consistently over time. Biblical use of faith as a concept requires that faith is an "inside-job", induced faith doesn't measure up to the Biblical use of faith for connection to that literary supreme being. I suspect that many children are abused yearly in the name of induction of faith. We as human adults can do so much better than that.

About cats, I draw the line at the fact cats don't teach each other abstractions. Mankind does. Please be clear, I am not saying feelings are only abstract. I do guarantee, however, any memory of a faith-initiated happenning that is connected to a feeling, can only be an abstraction of the experience.

History is never more than the abstract. Cats don't teach history to each other, but we do. Good teaching is a mix both inductive and deductive processes. It has been proven that higher primates are capable of deductive decision making. They don't teach each other strategy in the abstract. Our faith shines brightest when we trust the strategy to work in both the abstract and in real-time the same way.

I have faith that we are better off being able to distinguish what happenned then from what is happenning right now.

Rod

 

Re: Why is faith not definable???

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51

In reply to Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39

Okay, I don't remember what I said.
The topic of faith has always been a mystery to me.
Such as: leap of faith...
whoa that sounds scary.
So in faith is there to be a tacet belief in somthing unprovable?
I like provable realities.
I hope this makes sense.
Jai

 

Re: Why is faith not definable???

Posted by MKB on November 11, 2004, at 18:26:32

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable???, posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51

Hmmm. "Provable realities." Somehow that makes me think of something you said about the U.S. elections on the Social Board.

 

Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan

Posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable???, posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51

Jai,

Faith is about the inexplicable, the unprovable, and the unseen. Where's my faith, if I knew the facts?

Faith, for me, is surrendering all that I know and see.

I still stumble along from one visible guidepost to another while reaching for the Way that says, "I must decrease."

verne

 

Re: Why is faith not definable???

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 13, 2004, at 15:03:31

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20

coolie, kool verne.
I like that answer.
you are the best!
Jai

 

Faith is not bewilderment

Posted by 64bowtie on November 13, 2004, at 15:55:02

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20

> Faith is about the inexplicable, the unprovable, and the unseen.

<<< Faith is acceptance of partial information, not a succombing bewilderment toward all information for the sake of magical outcomes.

> Where's my faith, if I knew the facts?

<<< We can never know all the facts, therefore we can bridge this cravasse with faith that the extrapolation of the facts we do know continue on toward truth even though we can't see the unfolding of the proof we desire.

First and foremost, faith is a tool... to an end.

Rod

 

Faith is acceptance of incomplete knowledge (nm)

Posted by 64bowtie on November 13, 2004, at 15:57:18

In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20

 

Lou's response to rayww » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 13, 2004, at 16:30:43

In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww, posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 0:47:16

rayww,
You wrote,[...my understanding that the jews don't believe in {the} resurrection...].
Are you referring to a spacific resurrection? If so, could you specify the resurrection that you are referring to? If you could clarify this, then I could have the opportunity to reply accordingly.
Lou

 

Bewilderment?

Posted by verne on November 14, 2004, at 0:51:52

In reply to Faith is not bewilderment, posted by 64bowtie on November 13, 2004, at 15:55:02

When I say that faith is about the inexplicable, the unprovable, and the unseen, I'm not suggesting "bewilderment".

When I say that I believe in the "unseen", I am far from bewildered. In fact, I am encouraged and hopeful.

verne

 

Re: Bewilderment? you are inspiring verne

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 14, 2004, at 10:50:54

In reply to Bewilderment?, posted by verne on November 14, 2004, at 0:51:52

I am so glad you are encouraged and hopeful.
I find myself in somewhat the same boat.
No organized religions for me.
But a deep and rich spiritual life.
I think the unseen and unknown is the most profound description of that which I look upon as the divine.

you are inspiring verne

 

Re: Faith is not bewilderment

Posted by Jai Narayan on November 14, 2004, at 10:52:13

In reply to Faith is not bewilderment, posted by 64bowtie on November 13, 2004, at 15:55:02

gosh Rod what is the end?

 

Your own resurrection » Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 11:22:22

In reply to Lou's response to rayww » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 13, 2004, at 16:30:43

> Are you referring to a spacific resurrection?

Yes Lou, your own. You will be Lou for eternity Lou.

Christ opened the grave. There was no resurrection before the atonement. Had it not been so, we would have remained in the grave forever. As in Adam all men die, as in Christ all are made alive. If Adam and Eve had not become mortal they would never have died, and we would not have been born. It is all part of God's plan, named the "Plan of Salvation"
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22as+in+Adam%22&search.x=31&search.y=10

We have laws on earth that must be obeyed. Likewise, in heaven there are laws. Why would heaven be a place of confusion and no law? It is a place of order, Definition of order, "A place for everything and everything in its place" Perfect order. Perfect Law. Perfect Ordinances.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=done+decently+and+order&search.x=31&search.y=10

We know the ordinances were in effect from the beginning of time. Abel talked with God and knew the ordinances, or why was he offering sacrifice? The ordinance of sacrifice was in similitude of the sacrifice of the Redeemer. It was to remind the people that Christ would come.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=abel+ordinance+sacrifice&search.x=31&search.y=10

In the beginning of time, Lucifer was trying to destroy all righteousness. Greed, jealousy, and desire for power got the best of Cain. What's so different today?

How do we know that Christ opened the graves? Because there were many witnesses, and their accounts have been preserved by the gift and power of God.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=graves+open&search.x=31&search.y=10

Why were baptisms preformed for the dead, if the dead raise not at all?
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22if+the+dead+rise%22&search.x=30&search.y=3
People of my faith believe that nearly all of the references to Christ's first advent were taken out of the Old writings, except for the words of Isaiah. Great are the words of Isaiah, it's all there if you can find it. Christ quoted isaiah more than any other OT Prophet.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22great+are+the+words+of+Isaiah%22&search.x=31&search.y=10

You asked which resurrection I was referring to, and I hope I have answered this to your satisfaction, if not, to sum it up, the resurrection I am referring to is your own, and it is only made possible by and through Jesus Christ. You have always been and will always be you. One body, from spirit, to mortal, to immortal. You will never be anything other. You cannot come back as a frog, or as a princess, You are male, will always be male, but you keep on learning and progressing. Forever.
There is no end to learning.......One last ref. "If You could high to Kolob" 284
http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchalpha/1,17929,4782-1-1,00.html#nullLink

 

Lou's response to rayww » rayww

Posted by Lou Pilder on November 14, 2004, at 20:09:56

In reply to Your own resurrection » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 11:22:22

rayww,
Now that you have identified that the resurrection that you were referring to, that you wrote that according to your understanding the jews do not believe in, is the resurrection of [...your own....],you then write,[...it is only made possible by and through Jesus Christ...].
Could you clarify what you mean by {by and through} Jesus Christ? Could this statement be broken into two statements such as,{the resurrection is only made possible by Jesus Christ} and {the resurrection is only made possible through Jesus Christ}? If so, could you clarify what those statements mean.? If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou

 

By and through Christ » Lou Pilder

Posted by rayww on November 14, 2004, at 23:58:23

In reply to Lou's response to rayww » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 14, 2004, at 20:09:56

By:

A long time ago when we all lived in heaven in one big family as spirit brothers and sisters there arose a bit of a problem. we loved it there and wanted to be able to stay forever and progress like our heavenly parents. You may have heard of the great war in heaven. http://scriptures.lds.org/gsc/cnclnhvn
We were there, and all those who have ever been born on earth accepted Christ's plan and fought the battle against Satan. Christ's plan was the plan of salvation (including resurrection) and it was created "by" Jesus Christ in the pre-mortal existance

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=Rev+19%3A10-21&search.x=30&search.y=9

Satan, also known as the devil or Lucifer, is an enemy of God and of all those who endeavor to do the will of God. He attempts to entice and tempt all men and women to do evil or wrong. He uses deception and the imitation of good to lead people away from God. He cannot force or coerce an individual against his or her will to do evil and follow him. His objective is to make all mankind miserable. He once lived in a pre-earth or premortal life in the presence of God before this earth was created. He rebelled against God and the eternal plan of progress and righteousness. He persuaded many others to follow his rebellion all of whom were cast out of God’s presence. They are damned in their development for they do not receive physical bodies. They work to influence and tempt those who dwell as mortals on the earth. All who are obedient to God’s commandments and follow the principles of goodness and righteousness are protected from Satan’s influences. The time will come when Satan will no longer have power over men and women, and his works will cease.

Through:

In order to qualify for eternal life in the presence of God, we would all need to be perfect like Him. As you know, none of us, no matter how hard we try, could never be perfect, and would fall short of our goal to return to live with God. Christ (first born spirit son of god) offered to come to earth and take upon himself our debt by suffering for all the sins of mankind in our behalf, feeling all the pain and grief, because he understood the problem, and loved us. He came to earth as the only begotten Son of god, the only one capable of performing an infinite atonement for our sins. He also came to show us how we should live in order to be happy. "Through" Christ means accepting Him, and activating the atonement in our personal lives by going through the procedure of faith, repentance, etc. It is not a free gift. It comes "through" the atonement. We have to become a part of it, it goes "through" us as we go through it.

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,885-1,00.html

By and through Christ means the plan was created by Christ and the redemption was wrought through Him.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=wrought+redemption+christ&search.x=31&search.y=10http://scriptures.lds.org/bdc/christ (top frame)

 

A very sad day

Posted by rayww on November 15, 2004, at 0:26:37

In reply to Lou's response to rayww » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 14, 2004, at 20:09:56

Although we shouted for joy, it was a very sad day when 1/3 of our brothers and sisters in heaven were cast out of God's presence. We may have had friends there. All heaven wept. I think it was a happy day for the plan, but a very sad day for the 1/3, never to ever have the privilege of body. Lucifer was a son of God too, as were all of his followers, male and female. I can't help but feel bad about the loss and betrayal. Maybe that's why we are so affected so deeply by loss and grief here. We have roots that go way back to those feelings. they must have really thought they would win, and still do.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=son+of+the+morning+has+fallen&search.x=31&search.y=10
What was the other plan? Clever Lucifer thought we could all be forced to be obediant to the laws that govern heaven, and then He would dethrone god, giving glory to himself alone. Christ's plan was to give us our agency and all the glory to God. (glorify God)
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=Romans+15%3A6&search.x=31&search.y=10
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=1+Cor+6%3A20&search.x=31&search.y=10

The scriptures are real to me Lou, and what I share, I believe with all my heart and hold dear. You have asked for an explanation. I hope you can understand my description.

 

Faith is not an end. Faith, like belief, is a tool » Jai Narayan

Posted by 64bowtie on November 15, 2004, at 1:57:08

In reply to Re: Faith is not bewilderment, posted by Jai Narayan on November 14, 2004, at 10:52:13

Jai,

> gosh Rod what is the end?

<<< I don't enjoy irritating other people, but I do enjoy sharing here with you, so how did I manage to irritate you? I hear scorn in your post.

To be clear, ahem.... faith is not an end... faith is a tool... faith is a means to an end... I use both lots of beliefs and lots of faith to the better more efficient means to my goals and options to goals. How much faith can you use to achieve your goals?

RSVP

Rod


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