![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 89. Go back in thread:
Posted by 64bowtie on November 1, 2004, at 23:34:40
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by alexandra_k on October 30, 2004, at 23:48:25
> I would prefer to see the world through the lens of faith.
<<< Does faith clarify the vision, or only replace it with a feeling component?
Rod
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:14:34
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 1, 2004, at 20:45:10
> but how would you differentiate between PMA, faith in god, and faith in stuff?
I guess that I wouldn't. That is why I have been talking about how we can have faith in lots of different kinds of propositons, religious ones being just one particular variety.
Or in english, I figured that if one has faith that 'god exists' then this is the same kind of faith as having faith that 'the future will be like the past'.
But maybe religious or spiritual faith is different from the latter case. I don't know...
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:15:28
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by 64bowtie on November 1, 2004, at 23:34:40
>Does faith clarify the vision, or only replace it with a feeling component?
Jeepers, thats a good question Rod. I dunno, what do you reckon?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:18:05
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 1, 2004, at 22:18:54
> Is it your way or the highway?
Nope, I promise :-)
> what is god anyway?
> did we define god yet?Are you poking fun at me???
> why is faith not definable by us?
> we can choose right?
> JaiHi Jai, I am sorry about your election block :-(
Hope you are with us again and aren't too depressed over the state of the world.Thinking of you,
Your friend
a_k9
Posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » rayww, posted by alexandra_k on November 4, 2004, at 19:14:34
> > but how would you differentiate between PMA, faith in god, and faith in stuff?
>
> I guess that I wouldn't. That is why I have been talking about how we can have faith in lots of different kinds of propositons, religious ones being just one particular variety.<<<Alexandra, now I am beginning to understand why you (and others) don't understand faith in a God.
>
> Or in english, I figured that if one has faith that 'god exists' then this is the same kind of faith as having faith that 'the future will be like the past'.<<<<When was the end all of faith supposed to be that God exists?
>
> But maybe religious or spiritual faith is different from the latter case. I don't know...
<<<<<Now you are beginning to understand me. By admitting you don't know invites me to say I do know. If you haven't experienced it, it would be impossible to know. I have experienced it. I know God lives. I know faith gets things done, in a hurry sometimes. I know faith in God isn't just about God, its about doing His work, being His hands, saying His words, loving His love. It's about being there for miracles and recognizing them. It's about reverent prayer and holiness, and humility and meekness. It's about keeping the commandments and loving our neighbor as ourself. It's about life and living it to the fullest. Faith in God is all-encompasing. It's about a divine center, with focus on Christ, it's about redemption and exaltation. What isn't faith in God about?The big question is how does one learn to recognize faith in God? Well, you lose something, you pray, and then you find it. Prayer works every time. A little child learns at a young age about prayer and faith. These simple lessons carry her over a life time. I have never known a moment of life without faith in God. I cannot even comprehend not having faith, or not believing in God. I have seen the world, lived in it, been part of it, but always under the umbrella and protection of faith. It's a shield against the firey darts of Satan, as real as metal armor.
I think it is referred to as the "breastplate" in the whole armor of God. http://scriptures.lds.org/eph/6/14#14>;
I understand your point of view, and also that of others who don't know about God. I have never criticized anyone for their belief, have I? I don't recal ever saying you are wrong to believe as you do. You may believe however you choose, but I don't think you should assume that people who believe in God don't have what to base their belief on.
We base our belief on God himself, and that is a sure foundation. One upon which if men build they cannot fall, and that is a promise (covenant) from God himself.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
Posted by alexandra_k on November 5, 2004, at 1:03:45
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
Good afternoon rayww.
>When was the end all of faith supposed to be that God exists?
Oh, that is just my stock example of a religious proposition. You can replace it with anything you like: 'god will ensure I will get through this' or whatever.
>If you haven't experienced it, it would be impossible to know. I have experienced it. I know God lives. I know faith gets things done, in a hurry sometimes. I know faith in God isn't just about God, its about doing His work, being His hands, saying His words, loving His love. It's about being there for miracles and recognizing them. It's about reverent prayer and holiness, and humility and meekness. It's about keeping the commandments and loving our neighbor as ourself. It's about life and living it to the fullest. Faith in God is all-encompasing. It's about a divine center, with focus on Christ, it's about redemption and exaltation. What isn't faith in God about?
It seems to be about a way of life, a practice, a way in which one lives ones life, a world view. I don't think I have ever had that. I always got stuck between what I believed was right and what I did because of my problems with impulse control / missing time. I guess my faith never really got cashed out in terms of action. So maybe I never really had that.
>I have never criticized anyone for their belief, have I?
You have certaintly never criticised mine. In fact you have been very patient with me.
>I don't think you should assume that people who believe in God don't have what to base their belief on.
I guess that I do think that 'belief' in god is more properly called 'faith' because we can't access the right kind of evidence to have a justified belief that either 'god exists' or 'god does not exist' is true. It is not more rational to believe one way or the other (unless you particularly liked Pascal's wager). I know that I went through some of the arguments for the existence of god on this board and critiqued them rationally. But that doesn't show that god doesn't exist. There are also many arguments that god doesn't exist. But then we could go through them and critique them rationally as well. I guess that I think that at the end of the day the arguments stack up fairly evenly and so it is not more rational to believe one way or the other.
But then there is still faith.
I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.I know, how about both?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by rayww on November 4, 2004, at 22:49:02
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Jacob 4: 15? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 17:56:06
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » rayww, posted by alexandra_k on November 5, 2004, at 1:03:45
Ah, common ground at last. I can go for that.
rayww
> I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.
>
> I know, how about both?
>
>
>
>
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:18:41
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22ye+must+build+your+foundation%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:53:19
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
Part 2
Next time you see green olives, think of how God serves all.Olive 1: Grandfather and the Green Olives
Everyone in my family loves green olives. If we have a family dinner and forget the green olives, we soon hear about it. The other day my mother asked me if I could remember Grandpa bringing us children green olives. We lived on a farm where my grandparents lived in one house and our family lived across the yard. There was one car between us and it was his. Grandpa had meetings to go to in town and would quite often bring us a treat. He did not believe in spoiling children with candy, so his treat was often a bottle of green olives. We grew up thinking of green olives as a treat.
The parallel here is that God serves us by doing what is best for us, not necessarily what we think we would like. We can learn to love the green olives of life.
Olive 2: The Allegory of the Olive Tree: - - God serves by gathering His people (including the Jews)
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22how+oft+would+I%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
In the allegory of the olive tree, the ancient Prophet, Zenos describes the gathering process of the House of Israel. As is described here allegorically, God never gives up until he succeeds. The Jews and the whole House of Israel have great promise.The Olive Tree:
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4 preamble
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/5 The allegory
http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessingOlive 3: "The Olive Leaf" God serves us by giving us peace eventually casting Satan out of our midst forever.
The Olive Leaf:
In December 1832 the United States of America and the world and the church was in quite a sad state of affairs.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.htmlOn Christmas day 1832 Joseph Smith received the “war prophesy”, in which he prophesied the coming civil war, and other calamities. Two days later he received the “peace prophesy”
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=d%26c+88&search.x=31&search.y=10
He affectionately named this revelation “The Olive Leaf” plucked from the Tree of Paradise. It must have brought him great peace at the time because there was a lot of persecution and destruction happening right then. People of my faith believe these two revelations actually came from God.Bob, under the circumstances and coincidences of faith, I feel this has to be included in the preamble of my revise. If you would like further clarification……..first please explain why Jacob 4:15 caught your attention. Then, perhaps if y[L]ou could read from there to the end of the allegory in Chapter 5 and the explanation in chapter 6, I hope you would receive understanding that this is in no way antiSemitic. Thank-you.
al·le·go·ry n
1. a work in which the characters and events are to be understood as representing other things and symbolically expressing a deeper, often spiritual, moral, or political meaning
2. the symbolic expression of a deeper meaning through a story or scene acted out by human, animal, or mythical characters
3. allegories considered as a literary or artistic genre
4. a symbolic representation of something
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23
In reply to Re: please revise that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2004, at 15:44:55
I am assuming that you have reference to the word, "Jew" in Jacob 4:15, but that being so, perhaps what I should do is make an attempt to explain the significance of that scripture to the Jews. Did you know that Mormons and Jews are the only two religions that fully accept their common ground foundation in the Old Testament? I absolutely guarantee Mormons are not anti-Semitic. We acknowledge the Abrahamic covenant, and birthright.
God covenanted with Abraham that his seed would be blessed and as innumerable as the sands of the sea. We suspect that nearly every nation on earth today has Abraham's seed mixed with theirs in fulfillment of that covenant. If you would like to study the Abrahamic covenant, here are a few (hundred) scriptures.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query? words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Searchend of part 1. Please keep reading - - I haven't revised yet.
> > http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=foundation++build+fall&search.x=31&search.y=10
>
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to put down the beliefs of others, could you please revise the above so that it doesn't include, for example, Jacob 4: 15? Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 19:04:23
In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 1 » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:56:23
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=abrahamic+covenant&scripturesearch_button=Search
Posted by alexandra_k on November 7, 2004, at 11:51:18
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith? » alexandra_k, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 17:56:06
> Ah, common ground at last. I can go for that.
> rayww
> > I don't think that faith is second best to belief, either. I am still thinking about whether it improves vision, or just adds a componant.
> > I know, how about both?Yay! (Took me long enough) :-)
That was a good question indeed.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 8, 2004, at 0:00:26
In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 3 » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:18:41
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 9, 2004, at 20:50:10
In reply to Re: please revise that: Part 2, posted by rayww on November 6, 2004, at 18:53:19
> Part 2
> Next time you see green olives, think of how God serves all.
>
> Olive 1: Grandfather and the Green Olives
>
> Everyone in my family loves green olives. If we have a family dinner and forget the green olives, we soon hear about it. The other day my mother asked me if I could remember Grandpa bringing us children green olives. We lived on a farm where my grandparents lived in one house and our family lived across the yard. There was one car between us and it was his. Grandpa had meetings to go to in town and would quite often bring us a treat. He did not believe in spoiling children with candy, so his treat was often a bottle of green olives. We grew up thinking of green olives as a treat.
>
> The parallel here is that God serves us by doing what is best for us, not necessarily what we think we would like. We can learn to love the green olives of life.
>
> Olive 2: The Allegory of the Olive Tree: - - God serves by gathering His people (including the Jews)
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22how+oft+would+I%22&search.x=31&search.y=10
> In the allegory of the olive tree, the ancient Prophet, Zenos describes the gathering process of the House of Israel. As is described here allegorically, God never gives up until he succeeds. The Jews and the whole House of Israel have great promise.
>
> The Olive Tree:
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4 preamble
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/5 The allegory
> http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/6 The blessing
>
> Olive 3: "The Olive Leaf" God serves us by giving us peace eventually casting Satan out of our midst forever.
> The Olive Leaf:
> In December 1832 the United States of America and the world and the church was in quite a sad state of affairs.
> http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html
>
> On Christmas day 1832 Joseph Smith received the “war prophesy”, in which he prophesied the coming civil war, and other calamities. Two days later he received the “peace prophesy”
> http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=d%26c+88&search.x=31&search.y=10
> He affectionately named this revelation “The Olive Leaf” plucked from the Tree of Paradise. It must have brought him great peace at the time because there was a lot of persecution and destruction happening right then. People of my faith believe these two revelations actually came from God.
>
> Bob, under the circumstances and coincidences of faith, I feel this has to be included in the preamble of my revise. If you would like further clarification……..first please explain why Jacob 4:15 caught your attention. Then, perhaps if y[L]ou could read from there to the end of the allegory in Chapter 5 and the explanation in chapter 6, I hope you would receive understanding that this is in no way antiSemitic. Thank-you.
>
> al·le·go·ry n
> 1. a work in which the characters and events are to be understood as representing other things and symbolically expressing a deeper, often spiritual, moral, or political meaning
> 2. the symbolic expression of a deeper meaning through a story or scene acted out by human, animal, or mythical characters
> 3. allegories considered as a literary or artistic genre
> 4. a symbolic representation of somethingrayww,
In your post above there isa link under "Olive 3". When you click on that a page comes up and if you scroll down to P:314 there is a paragraph and in it reads:
[....be baptized in the name of ...The Son..and recieve the ordanance...of him who is ordained...the {only way} man can enter into the celestial kingdom...]. Could you clarify if this statement in question means that jews and others that do not get[... baptized in the name ...of the Son...and do not receive the ordanance...of him who is ordained..] can not enter the celestial kingdom?
If you could, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
Lou
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c22history.html
Posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 0:47:16
In reply to Lou's response to rayww » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on November 9, 2004, at 20:50:10
It is my understanding that the Jews don't believe in the resurrection. therefore, no matter what my answer, it would be invalidated by your belief. so, because I'm not quite sure why you are asking such a question, and recall that you requested I not write to you, I shall answer it in the words of Jesus.
Eph. 4: 5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.Lou if I felt you were sincere we might enter a discussion, but you have given me reason to mistrust your intent. I am near certain you are attempting to trick me into stating that in order to enter the highest degree of exaltation one must be baptized. To enter the heaven that is taught and believed by most religions, baptism is not necessary. Neither is marriage for that matter, but to enter the highest, where God himself dwells, marriage and baptism are recorded and in effect eternally. What else might be the point of earthly baptism, if not for a heavenly reward? If baptism can procure such position, then certainly the ordinance of marriage should also. Why else would God be so specific in describing the sanctity of marriage, if it didn't have eternal consequense? Families can be together forever. #188
http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogsearchalpha/1,17929,4958-1-2,00.html#nullLinkDo you want to believe in eternal family? Then the Lord will show you how it can happen. Do you want to believe in a family that is disolved at the time of death? Then, so be that also. There will not be marrying in heaven because marriage is performed on earth. There is a kingdom for everyone, according to their belief, room for all you might say. You get pretty much what you believe in. Unless, you don't believe in the resurrection, because whether you believe or not, everyone will be resurrected. Resurrection is real Lou. Total 100% restoration of all that was lost at death.
When I say we will all get according to our belief, that is not to say all will not have the opportunity at some point to knowingly make a choice. Everyone, including the Jews will cross that bridge. All will have the opportunity to one day look Jesus in the eye and say
"My Lord, My God".
http://scriptures.lds.org/rev/5/9#9And.....there is absolutely nothing anti-semitic about that. It is the most all-inclusive belief there is. (some people of my faith believe all or most of the above several paragraphs, but I believe it all in my own understanding)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2004, at 8:39:19
In reply to Re: Lou's response to rayww, posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 0:47:16
> Lou if I felt you were sincere we might enter a discussion, but you have given me reason to mistrust your intent. I am near certain you are attempting to trick me into stating that in order to enter the highest degree of exaltation one must be baptized.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or jump to conclusions about them. If you don't feel it'll lead to a discussion, maybe just don't reply?
Bob
Posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39
In reply to Re: If not, how do you get faith?, posted by Jai Narayan on November 1, 2004, at 22:18:54
> why is faith not definable by us?
<<< Thanx Jai. I thought I had accepted Dictionay Dot Com as the authority for this question, and we did/do define faith in any of its many iterations. When someone cannot see faith as an abstract only available to the minds of mankind, I am willing to sit, and wait, and see if perception and perspective might update.....
New list: centipedes, squids, giraffes, emus, lice, and halibut, don't connect with the concept of "faith". They may act out in a "faithly" type pattern of behavior, but they don't acknowledge us when we tell them about "faith". They are never heard or witnessed explaining faith to any other member of their species. I remain unconvinced that faith is innate and not learned. So the issue is learning. Which [nouns] learn in the abstract and which ones don't? [nouns] => people, places, things, ideas.
Rod
Posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 23:21:24
In reply to Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39
I think it would be good for your community to try to define faith, but there isn't a lot of participation here.
So......you don't think animals have faith. Where does instinct come from? I always thought that the only one of God's creations that wasn't totally obedient to Him was man. Plants, animals, rocks, they all reverence and obey God. Aren't they all part of the balance of nature? Nature balances itself out in most cases, and all creatures are here for a reason. If you're not a cat how do you know they don't have faith??? I don't know how it feels to be a cat, but I know cats have feelings, and if they are capable of having feelings, why aren't they also capable of faith?
Those who believe in God also believe that all love emenates from God, even love posessed by and for animals.
http://scriptures.lds.org/gen/2/19#19http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=gen+6%3A7&search.x=31&search.y=10
I'm not trying to invent a topic here, or pull you away from your definition of faith. Maybe I suffer from lastwordism, along with crossbrained bipolar, and emotional dyslexia.
Posted by 64bowtie on November 11, 2004, at 13:54:18
In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » 64bowtie, posted by rayww on November 10, 2004, at 23:21:24
> So......you don't think animals have faith. Where does instinct come from? >
<<< As I have posted in the past, instinct is from the process portion of the DNA chain molecules of every living thing. Process Genes make up about 70% of the chain molecule. Originally thought to be "junk" genes, tremendous progress has shed new light that a great amount of behavior can be biased by this process region. Free-Will for humans perhaps originates in this region. God did a good job of laying us out so we could persevere in this hostile environment. I see no connection to faith and instinct other than my faith that instincts work, ...good.
> If you're not a cat how do you know they don't have faith??? I don't know how it feels to be a cat, but I know cats have feelings, and if they are capable of having feelings, why aren't they also capable of faith?
><<< An intellctual "faith" can be induced. Cats do use their litter box when we induce the message consistently over time. Biblical use of faith as a concept requires that faith is an "inside-job", induced faith doesn't measure up to the Biblical use of faith for connection to that literary supreme being. I suspect that many children are abused yearly in the name of induction of faith. We as human adults can do so much better than that.
About cats, I draw the line at the fact cats don't teach each other abstractions. Mankind does. Please be clear, I am not saying feelings are only abstract. I do guarantee, however, any memory of a faith-initiated happenning that is connected to a feeling, can only be an abstraction of the experience.
History is never more than the abstract. Cats don't teach history to each other, but we do. Good teaching is a mix both inductive and deductive processes. It has been proven that higher primates are capable of deductive decision making. They don't teach each other strategy in the abstract. Our faith shines brightest when we trust the strategy to work in both the abstract and in real-time the same way.
I have faith that we are better off being able to distinguish what happenned then from what is happenning right now.
Rod
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51
In reply to Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by 64bowtie on November 10, 2004, at 9:54:39
Okay, I don't remember what I said.
The topic of faith has always been a mystery to me.
Such as: leap of faith...
whoa that sounds scary.
So in faith is there to be a tacet belief in somthing unprovable?
I like provable realities.
I hope this makes sense.
Jai
Posted by MKB on November 11, 2004, at 18:26:32
In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable???, posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51
Hmmm. "Provable realities." Somehow that makes me think of something you said about the U.S. elections on the Social Board.
Posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20
In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable???, posted by Jai Narayan on November 11, 2004, at 16:01:51
Jai,
Faith is about the inexplicable, the unprovable, and the unseen. Where's my faith, if I knew the facts?
Faith, for me, is surrendering all that I know and see.
I still stumble along from one visible guidepost to another while reaching for the Way that says, "I must decrease."
verne
Posted by Jai Narayan on November 13, 2004, at 15:03:31
In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20
coolie, kool verne.
I like that answer.
you are the best!
Jai
Posted by 64bowtie on November 13, 2004, at 15:55:02
In reply to Re: Why is faith not definable??? » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on November 13, 2004, at 0:55:20
> Faith is about the inexplicable, the unprovable, and the unseen.
<<< Faith is acceptance of partial information, not a succombing bewilderment toward all information for the sake of magical outcomes.
> Where's my faith, if I knew the facts?
<<< We can never know all the facts, therefore we can bridge this cravasse with faith that the extrapolation of the facts we do know continue on toward truth even though we can't see the unfolding of the proof we desire.
First and foremost, faith is a tool... to an end.
Rod
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