Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 251864

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Re: what happens when faith dies?

Posted by rayww on August 18, 2003, at 16:25:13

In reply to what happens when faith dies?, posted by habbyshabit on August 18, 2003, at 13:59:01

Habby you are suffering the torments that sometimes come our way. Stand firm if you can. Faith will win in the end. Jim you write poetically and have beautiful thoughts. I would add my own to yours concerning light and say, Friends add sparkle to light, but they also can spark fires - - that give off light. Look to the light, and glitter yourself with friends, even us.

 

Re: what happens when faith dies? » rayww

Posted by Dena on August 18, 2003, at 19:29:47

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies?, posted by rayww on August 18, 2003, at 16:25:13

Dear Habbyshabbit -

We haven't yet been "properly introduced" - you came on board during one of my many exiles - though I've read your posts, as well as all others, "from a distance".

Hi - I'm Dena. I'm a wife, a mother of 8 (one of whom is in heaven), an artist, a follower of Jesus, & an opinionated, out-spoken woman who manages to get one, if not two, feet in her mouth on an almost-daily basis (it's hard to walk around that way).

I'm so sorry that you're feeling the loss of your faith. I know we all experience the ebb & flow of feeling connected. It doesn't make it easier for you, while you're going through it, but it is normal. It's especially hard if you've once had the experience of feeling connected, only to lose it.

I've felt that disconnect, too. I've called it many things: being stuck in the desert, the "dark night of the soul", in the pit of darkness, tuned in to the wrong frequency (static!).

I know it doesn't help to know so many different faith "stories". Those are all on the level of comprehension. Faith is on a different frequency.

Perhaps you're on a journey, only you don't see the next step of the path. Have you ever been somewhere that used motion-sensor lights at night? I found myself in pitch darkness one night, on the side of a building that I had to get around, to find the entrance. There was a path of stepping stones, but there was also a sharp drop-off, a steep ravine, just past the stepping stones. For a while, I just stood there, not wanting to take the chance of stepping, for fear that I would step off into nothingness. Finally, I stuck one foot out into the darkness, groping for a firm place to step. As I took that step, FLASH! A motion-sensor light came on, lighting my path. I could take two or at the most three steps in that light. Then I had to step out into the darkness again so that the next light would come on.

First came the step of faith, then came the trust.

Maybe on your journey, you just need to know what or who you can trust.

Forget the stories. Some may be true, some may be false, or a combination of the two.

Someone put this world together. Someone established life. Call out to that Someone. Ask for faith to believe whatever is. Ask for the gift of trust in Whoever is trustworthy.

Your path will be lightened, but you may have to step out into the darkness.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw

Posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:29

In reply to what happens when faith dies?, posted by habbyshabit on August 18, 2003, at 13:59:01

You guys are my lights in the darkness. I wrote here for there is nowhere my feelings would be more heard, it felt. To consider this feeling is depressing, even though my energy is returning and my mood is better.

I don't see the light at the end of this dark tunnel. I've never been down this road before. Faith is not of the intellect and I feel this as an intellectual conundrum that obscures any inkling of faith.

I've had a number of ineffable spiritual experiences. I always accepted Trungpa Rinpoche's teachings not to attach to them and ego aggrandize. Now I wonder about the neurologic origins. More intellect at work, no faith in that grandeur.

It's not fun. I can't find my way out of this maze. I've stopped trying. I don't know what to call this. To call it a dark night of the soul is to subscribe to another story of the nature of the soul. Sorry you all. I don't want to take you on this journey with me, if only in word pictures.

Your faith in your chosen religions is a joy to witness. I would never invalidate it. It's real. But so are my husband's delusions. I think his illness has played a huge role in this. This amazing way the mind can make it's own reality. Mass delusion would be so much kinder then his isolated one.

THANK YOU! all for reading what I say here. It's a disturbing reality from which I would love to step in to the motion sensor lights and dispell.

In all love,
Hab

 

Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw » habbyshabit

Posted by Dena on August 19, 2003, at 13:54:24

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw, posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:29

Dear Habby -

Your pain, & your exhaustion, come through in your words. You have a lot to bear, & I'm sorry that the burden is so heavy.

Words are inadequate - I'll keep praying for you, and now your husband, as well.

Shalom, Dena

 

We pray for you and your husband ... Take Care ! (nm) » habbyshabit

Posted by lil' jimi on August 19, 2003, at 14:25:44

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw, posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:29

 

Re: We pray for you and your husband ... Take Care !

Posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 16:04:24

In reply to We pray for you and your husband ... Take Care ! (nm) » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 19, 2003, at 14:25:44

Thanks Dena and Jim and all for your prayers. May they be swift and strong and hit the mark.

I'll be posting on psychological babble about my husband if you wish to follow me there...

Thanks for being here.

Hab

 

on second thought

Posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 16:13:12

In reply to Re: We pray for you and your husband ... Take Care !, posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 16:04:24

I just looked at that thread (psychological babble) and it's just too difficult a subject to write about and things just looked chaotic over there. Quick judgement I'm sure.

I can say here that he has as much faith in his delusion of persecution, and functions just as sanely as any church goer otherwise, that it's as if the delusion is his religion. It's so bizarre and has been going on for over a year now. It took writing that last post about him that made me realize how faith lots it's foothold in my mind.

The value of being heard and having a place to be heard here is priceless. I can't say how this will all resolve itself. I just hope to stay in the moment and not the fear.

You guys have been a huge blessing.

Hab

 

re: on second thought

Posted by lil' jimi on August 19, 2003, at 16:31:26

In reply to on second thought, posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 16:13:12

habby dear heart,

this IS a good place.
come back when the spirit moves.
we will be here.

praying,
~ jim

 

Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw » habbyshabit

Posted by Tabitha on August 19, 2003, at 21:51:52

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw, posted by habbyshabit on August 19, 2003, at 0:10:29

dear Habby, you write about being confused about whether your spiritual experiences were neurologically based. Well, so what if they were? In my thinking, that doesn't make them less valid or less valuable. The same creator or life force wired you to be able to have such experiences. What does the mechanism matter?

 

Re: what happens when faith dies? » Tabitha

Posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 11:15:59

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies?jim, dena, rayw » habbyshabit, posted by Tabitha on August 19, 2003, at 21:51:52

Yes, Tabitha, I get what your saying. But when my neurochemistry also sends me into states that are not as much fun as spiritual experiences and not as eagerly called upon, it makes me wonder of the mechanism and it's trustworthiness. As I said, my husbands neurochemistry is creating a world comletely science fiction like. Did the creator wire him for that and if so, is it any more or less real then the spiritual and ineffable. Any less valuable? The thing I've come up against with the mechanism is it's trustworthiness. And how do you decide if the spiritual experience is delusional or real or from a spiritual souce, channeled through the neurochemistry. Who's channeling my husband's demons? (my word not his)

We know that mania produces spirtual like experiences in many. Are they real just because we are created by some creator being? Don't we have an intellect to decipher. Apparently, in this one area, my husband does not. Is it his intellect or the neurologic mechanism that is faulty? I don't know. His intellect seems fine in all other areas. It is very confusing. If I sound angry, it's not at you Tabitha, it's at this darn thing my husband is manifesting and I have no control over.

with respect,
Hab

 

spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit

Posted by lil' jimi on August 20, 2003, at 15:47:23

In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies? » Tabitha, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 11:15:59

hi Habby,

> Is it his intellect or the neurologic mechanism that is faulty? >

... "neurologic mechanism" ... gets my vote ...
... your question is whether all "spiritual" experiences are NOT neurologic disorders ...

... ... i would agree with Tabbi and add that there can be good neurologic 'failures' and bad (very bad) neurologic 'failures' ...
... ... some that can give deep insights could be "good" ...
... ... while some could put us risk by subverting our appropriately reality-grounded rationality ...

... one can have useful valid real-world application ...
... the other can undermine our judgement and preception of the physical world ...

... ... under your circumstances with your husband, intellectual discussions are not likely to make any progress ...
... ... i don't know what we are to do when faced with the intransigence of delusions like your husband's ... i'm so sorry

... .... i have to hope someone more knowlegdeable about mental health crises will post here about the approaches to your situation ...

... ... you are in our prayers

bless you,
~ jim

 

Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi

Posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47

In reply to spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 20, 2003, at 15:47:23

Jim, you know I adore you. I also am in this state of mind that wants to argue that it's not spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion but both at the same time. It's called a divine revelation when it's a culturally accepted and seemingly insightful, useful in the 'real' world phenomenon and a delusion when no one else can relate to it. At any rate it is very real to the one experienceing it, just ask my husband.

This isn't the place to dissect my husband's experience in that it's the faith board, about religion and spirituality - not about psychological disfunction.

I brought him up as I was writing because I realized living with his experience is what lead me down this slippery slope into questioning faith and the nature of the psycho-neurologic basis of spiritual experience.

I read a very scholarly article that convincingly painted jesus as a manic depressive!

What is this thing called faith and how does our brain conspire with our minds to give us just the spiritual experience that matches our religious beliefs. In my days of moving into Buddhism - I had a beautiful experience of feeling like the female body of Buddha. If I had been equally enamored with Christianity instead, might it not have been interpreted as the female body of Christ? You see - which comes first - the belief or the spiritual experience.

My spiritual experiences still color my view of the world. So do my husbands experiences. And believe me, he is very functional in the everyday world. I'm very confused, I agree. But your arguments are chicken/egg theories to me, based on the cultural concensus of the day and the milieu you find yourself in. Talk Dakini's to a Islamic fundamentalist and they'll think your as nutty as I think my husband's ideas are. ( I think - I know very little about Islamic fundamentalism, what with all those virgins and everything )

My thoughts are not those of a scholar. I am talking off the top of my head and out of the pain in my heart.

I'd love to go back to believing. I guess I'll eventually have to leave this board, having become irrelevent to the nature of the discussions here. Boy that's a drag. But I love you guys for taking up this conversation with me.

Still working it out,
Hab

 

Appeal to Dr. Bob

Posted by habbyshabit on August 21, 2003, at 14:31:24

In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47

Dear Dr. Bob,

I've probably worn out the good will of the faithful here. If you've followed my thread, you may see that words are less then descriptive of the deep pain this cognitive disonnance is causing me. Can you suggest an online resource that might be helpful?

Sincerely, Habby

 

spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit

Posted by rayww on August 21, 2003, at 15:42:46

In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47

I hope you don't leave. You have made this board come alive. A lot of people need to search out some of the issues you have introduced in your discussions.

The spiritual / dilusional side to bipolar disorder is one that has caused me to try to understand the difference between real and illusionary. From admitting there is such a thing as a real spiritual experience to accepting that the dillusional also have what is real-to-them spiritual experiences, I have come to wonder if communication with diety is simply based on our own language of understanding. Or if God communes with everyone in their own understanding.

I once heard a woman give a talk in church about her beat up car with the worn out tires, something about a miracle that got her from point a to point b one day in her travels, I can't remember the details now. She spoke in symbolism and parables, and I drew parallells with my own life. After church my husband said he was appalled at her talk, that she was obviously a mental case with a serious problem who had no business being a speaker at church. I had no trouble understanding her language. In fact, I went home and wrote "The Parable of the beat up car with the worn out tires" and sent her a copy of it in a thankyou note for sharing her understanding of life as she saw it.

I attended church in an inner-city ward one time. People from all cultures, all walks of life, all types of problems were there. Reformed drug addicts, mentally deranged people, some quite weird folks, yet all had one thing in common that day. They were discussing the same topic and were tuned into the same channel. I learned a lot from that congregation that day. I went home and asked our own congregation, "why are you all white and dressed the same?"

My point, I do not think any one of us can be the judge of another's dillusional or spiritual experience. I'm not talking of schitzophrenic type dillusions, or hallucinations, those are quite different.

It isn't easy to tell the difference sometimes, but I do think God takes special care of those who mentally can't care for themselves. Maybe we will be judged on how we help. Maybe those souls were so perfect they didn't need to go through normal earth life as we see it. Maybe their exaltation was sealed up before they were born, and they are here to test our compassion. Just maybe.

 

correction » rayww

Posted by rayww on August 21, 2003, at 15:48:13

In reply to spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit, posted by rayww on August 21, 2003, at 15:42:46

Reformed drug addicts, mentally deranged people, some quite weird folks, yet all had one thing in common that day. They were discussing the same topic and were tuned into the same channel.

Change to "we" all had one thing in common that day. and "We" were discussing the same topic.....I'd hate to leave my husband and I out.

 

Re: correction » rayww

Posted by habbyshabit on August 21, 2003, at 20:23:54

In reply to correction » rayww, posted by rayww on August 21, 2003, at 15:48:13

ray, thanks for your post - it elicited tears and emotion. The feeling of connecting. I needed that. Thank you for your compassion.

 

Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit

Posted by lil' jimi on August 22, 2003, at 10:55:48

In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47

dear sweet habster,

i have been (in between other things) writing a reply to you for more than a day now (?) .... (!)

but i needed to let you know that
1) you are in my thoughts
2) your contributions here, to this thread, are extremely positive, mutually beneficial (well, i hope they are at least partly as beneficial to you are they are to me), and thought-provokingly inspirational ...
... please, please, please, do not feel unwanted ...
3) thank you for adoring me ... i adore you too ... and i hope that you are adoring you at least as much as i adore you ... ... (i already adore me too much ... ... ask sylvia ... HA!)
4) to warn you that i value this conversation so much i may try to keep it going longer than you can stand ... so you may end up having to tell me when to quit ... but please don't ... ... HA!
5) and to let me give you these things so they can stop buzzing around in my head and let me try to concentrate on my reply i'm writing you ... ... now, i hope ... ... !

i feel like as we delve into your perspective on these faith issues, we are discover / uncovering important and valuable features to our individual belief systems and epistemologies.

i am finding this process ... moving ... and significant ....
... ... i also find it very supportive and encouraging ... the more impressively so in that it would seem to me to be supportive and encouraging of differing spiritual values simultaneously ... no mean feat ...

it is not possible for me to express how very much i appreciate you putting up with me and letting me play like this ... ... though i hurt for your suffering, you are giving me great joy ... ... so it helps that you adore me anyway, thanks!

you are teaching me things ... ... things i just Think i know

... ... hang in there ...
... ... i'll try to get that post out to you soon ...

take care,
~ jim

p.s.
on a personal note
(When Are WE Ever not On A Personal Note, Jim? ... ... HA!),
folks here are having our department-retirement "party", for me and three of my colleagues today
... i have worked for the state of texas for 32 years ... dorathea, 35 ... gene, 25 ... ... and miss liz has worked for our general libraries for 50 years ... i am so proud of liz!
.. . .. . .. next friday will be my last day working here ...

.. ... .. anyway, i am confident that you will understand that i have been preoccupied by things ...
. ... ... but soon i'll be right back at you ...

( . ... ... they call it a "party" .. ... ... from 11 to 3 ... (!) ... more like public torture ... just as soon they took me out and shot me ... .. ... rather be put to hard labor cracking rocks from 11 to 3, for gripes' sakes! ... ... i'm exhausted thinking about it and i'm not even among the army of co-workers and companions who are now slaving away to get everything just right ... ... pressures that i do not need, please ... ... ... they all mean well .... very well ... especially my boss .... .... so one must perform for the masses ... .... after all this isn't for us .. ... ... it is for them ... ... ... and it will be really nice .. ... .. once it starts ... and is over with! .... .... just right now it is nerve wracking ... ... and trying (say 'trying' in a falsely lilting tone) to wear out my buddhism .. ... .. if you knon what i mean! HA! )

... ... then i need to post back to Dinah too ... and then .. .. ...
..

~ j

 

Re: Appeal to Dr. Bob-FYI

Posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 17:17:52

In reply to Appeal to Dr. Bob, posted by habbyshabit on August 21, 2003, at 14:31:24

Dr Bob did reply by email, as I emailed him about the post as suggested elswhere in this site. There was not much he had to offer. I just wanted you to know he did not ignore my post.

Hab

 

jim, your post, your retirement, » lil' jimi

Posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 23:47:01

In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 22, 2003, at 10:55:48

Hey Jim,

Congratulations on retiring! We're retired now since last Oct. It's a new day. Is your wife a Buddhist? Do you have month long retreats on your retirement schedule?

You honored me with your last post, deeply. Here I was thinking my thinking (writing) was obtuse and whining.

Bill Maher, Real Time on HBO tonight said that he thought Religion was a neurologic disorder! He wasn't joking! While he didn't elaborate, It was interesting to see someone who's intellect ( and political persuasion) I admire, kind of validate my thoughts. Not that I think all religious folks, or spiritual folks are disordered, not at all.

It seems, now, at this juncture in my process, to be some function of the central nervous system to alight one's mind with a pathway that allows one comfort in the midst of what is surely chaos on this planet. Could it be an evolutionary advantage? Fear is dis-advantages. Faith makes for boldness and fearlessness. Just ask the suicide bombers.

I was lying in a darkened room yesterday, quite distressed with all this when suddenly I was just empty of thoughts about it or anything else. Shunyata! Could I have stumbled across a secret of Buddhism? Emptyness? I've meditated to the point of quiet - not emptiness. Could all this be some cerebral Koan that has no answer and leads, Zen like, to emptiness.

I have to admit I have felt better since. Not that I have answers or faith or am a born again Buddhist. It was a curious thing. One minute tears, fear, dispair. Then next minute, emptiness. No fear, pain, processing, thinking. T'was very wierd.

Has my central nervous system shifted gears into normal, everyday conciousness? Or worse, am I escalating into a hypo-mania? Two years ago, I never had to ask these questions. My cycles were years long and normalcy and spirituality live side by side in relative peace.

It is an interesting topic - eh? - spiritual experience and faith and it neurological underpinnings. Hard to believe I never looked at it before. Oh, I've heard the near death experiences of moving into a tunnel with light at the end is just the firing of a dying neurology, but I never gave it much thought, or credence. That too I wanted to believe in. Life after death. You know, dying faith, takes that with it, the belief in an after or before death. And I'm a channel for God's sake. I don't even want to go into just now what these thoughts have done with that avocation!!! Arlon!!! In that darkened room yesterday, I couldn't even turn to them for answers.

Oh, Jim, I'm so glad this conversation inspires you. While I bless your joy. It gives me great hope that maybe shunyata is really the only answer there is. Can you live in emptiness? Buddhism is so full of ritual, mantra and color that emptiness always seems so, well, empty! A contradiction.

Hope your party was more fun than the anticipation.

With deep respect,
Hab

 

re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion » habbyshabit

Posted by lil' jimi on August 23, 2003, at 22:14:52

In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47

dear Habby,

> Jim, you know I adore you.

as i adore you

> I also am in this state of mind that wants to argue that it's not spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion but both at the same time. >

excellent ... ... i have to agree ...

> It's called a divine revelation when it's a culturally accepted and seemingly insightful, useful in the 'real' world phenomenon and a delusion when no one else can relate to it. >

yes.

> At any rate it is very real to the one experiencing it, just ask my husband.

i understand.

> This isn't the place to dissect my husband's experience in that it's the faith board, about religion and spirituality - not about psychological dysfunction. >

as you wish ... ... i’m here because of my psychological dysfunction ... ... your husband offers us an illustrative case-in-point for an example in our discussion ... ... he has my deepest respects and sympathies

> I brought him up as I was writing because I realized living with his experience is what lead me down this slippery slope into questioning faith and the nature of the psycho-neurologic basis of spiritual experience. >

we can see how his issues have had an adverse impact on your confidence in your faith ... ... an excellent reason for you and i to be here, i’d say.
... ... ... for my part, i continue to pursue this because of my interest in “the nature of the psycho-neurologic basis of spiritual experience” ....

> I read a very scholarly article that convincingly painted jesus as a manic depressive!

could you find us a title and author? ... ... sounds fascinating. .. .. ... could make for an interesting discussion here ...

> What is this thing called faith and how does our brain conspire with our minds to give us just the spiritual experience that matches our religious beliefs. In my days of moving into Buddhism - I had a beautiful experience of feeling like the female body of Buddha. If I had been equally enamored with Christianity instead, might it not have been interpreted as the female body of Christ? You see - which comes first - the belief or the spiritual experience. >

speaking strictly from my personal experience, i would have never had spiritual experience(s) if i had had to have believed in spirituality first ... ... my first several spiritual experiences were in the face of my then hard-bitten deliberately anti-supernatural belief system ... ... ... and, to me, these anti-validating aspects of my experiences are what has persuaded me of their spiritual significance ... ... ... in general, we should expect that one of the hallmarks of spiritual or religious experiences should be their power to transform our lives ... this should be expected to be rather more than just validating one’s status quo ... ..

> My spiritual experiences still color my view of the world. So do my husbands experiences. And believe me, he is very functional in the everyday world. I'm very confused, I agree. But your arguments are chicken/egg theories to me, based on the cultural consensus of the day and the milieu you find yourself in. Talk Dakini's to a Islamic fundamentalist and they'll think your as nutty as I think my husband's ideas are. ( I think - I know very little about Islamic fundamentalism, what with all those virgins and everything ) >

there is no argument that the cultural milieu and religious context can and does interact with spiritual experience ... ... and this mutual interaction can be formative of religions ... ... ... for instance, buddhism continues to hunt for its cultural legs here in the united states ... ... but it is not necessarily invalidating of spiritual experiences ... ... we should expect the benign celestial forces to try to transmit their blessings in the vernacular of the culture of their beneficiaries

> My thoughts are not those of a scholar. I am talking off the top of my head and out of the pain in my heart. >

i’m no scholar neither! ... ... “buddhologist” is used as a term of disparagement among the devout .... .... i offer my respects for you in your suffering ...

> I'd love to go back to believing. I guess I'll eventually have to leave this board, having become irrelevant to the nature of the discussions here. Boy that's a drag. But I love you guys for taking up this conversation with me. >

i have offered you my denial of these assertions that this discussion would be seen as inappropriate here ... ... i find it highly appropriate .... .... may the powers that be agree.

> Still working it out,
> Hab

me too, but i’m not in your pain level ... so i want to help ...

there’s lively debate about the metaphysical underpinnings of neuroscience ... ... including theories of consciousness ... ...
... our factors we are considering include :
... ... social/cultural/religious
... ... neurotransmitters
... ... spiritual experience

... the eliminativists argue that all forms of consciousness are illusory
... physicialists argue only materiality is “real” ... ... these two constitute the main materialists’ attempts at monism ... dualism being avoided ...
... and there are proponents from the other side making their immaterialist counter-arguments ...

... this is your chicken-and-the-egg debate ...
... which is casually primary? ...
... socialization?
... belief system?
... consciousness?
... neurotransmitters?

i admire the natural scientific view ... ... the big bang ... stellar and planetary evolution ... biological evolution ...
... this is a standard view: we evolved neurotransmitters to promote our survival and procreation ... ... this lead to consciousness ... intelligence ... spiritual experience ... ... ... all of which is just stacking up the factors by going from least conscious to most conscious ...

... ... at this level of conventional experience, it makes intuitive sense to accept that states of consciousness are caused by neurotransmitters’ dynamics ... i don’t bother to deny this ... how else would antidepressants work? ... or any of the psychotropic drugs work? ... ... ... yet, if even the highest forms of spiritual experiences are the consequence neurotransmitters, should we feel spirituality is thus degraded?

the first noble truth explicates the primacy of suffering
... ... ... my own interpretation of this truth is to view our universe as being composed of discrete quanta of agony
... ... ... we have evolved serotonin levels to protect us from feeling this agony on its universal scale
... ... ... so we are each in peril should our serotonin levels fall too low for any reason ... the cosmic pain can crush our ability to endure and drive even the strongest of us to self-destruction ... only this thin veil of serotonin stands between us and this unutterable risk ... ...

there are alternatives to those conventional views ... ... there is the effect that consciousness can have on our neurotransmitters ... ... meditative practices have been shown to increase serotonin levels ... ... and the consciousness of stress and trauma have impact on neurotransmitters’ levels ... hypnotism can effect neurotransmitter levels ...

in light of the eternal values, all existent things arise from mutually interdependent co-origination ... arising simultaneously as a vast woven fabric of a mutually reinforcing web of “causes” and “effects” ... ... this view does not deny the view from conventional duality of cause and effect, it includes it ... ... but this non-dual view can defy these chicken and egg arguments ... ...

... ... yet i accept that despite the validity of the eternal view (and any skepticism we may have about it), your husband has a practical, conventional problem, which should see a conventional treatment ... ... adjusting his neurotransmitters is the obvious approach to relieve non-reality, irrationally based delusions ... ... if only he could be complicit for you ...

i can not guess if this has been helpful for you ... ... you and he are in my prayers
... i thank you for your discourse here from which i continue to benefit ...

(today is our 17th wedding anniversary!)

take care!
~ jim

 

Habbsterini

Posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 1:01:37

In reply to jim, your post, your retirement, » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 23:47:01

> Hey Jim,

hi habby

> Congratulations on retiring!

thank you

> We're retired now since last Oct. It's a new day.

congratulations to you !

> Is your wife a Buddhist?

no

> Do you have month long retreats on your retirement schedule?

i wish
.. .... .. no


> You honored me with your last post, deeply. Here I was thinking my thinking (writing) was obtuse and whining. >

the honor was mine ... ... your evocative thought-provoking message was a stimulating inspiration for me.

> Bill Maher, Real Time on HBO tonight said that he thought Religion was a neurologic disorder! He wasn't joking! While he didn't elaborate, It was interesting to see someone who's intellect (and political persuasion) I admire, kind of validate my thoughts. Not that I think all religious folks, or spiritual folks are disordered, not at all. >

which serves to reminds of an idea i failed to include in my previous post ... ...

> It seems, now, at this juncture in my process, to be some function of the central nervous system to alight one's mind with a pathway that allows one comfort in the midst of what is surely chaos on this planet. Could it be an evolutionary advantage? >

i believe so

> Fear is dis-advantages. Faith makes for boldness and fearlessness. Just ask the suicide bombers.
>
> I was lying in a darkened room yesterday, quite distressed with all this when suddenly I was just empty of thoughts about it or anything else. Shunyata! Could I have stumbled across a secret of Buddhism? Emptyness? I've meditated to the point of quiet - not emptiness. Could all this be some cerebral Koan that has no answer and leads, Zen like, to emptiness. >

i don't know and i'm not qualified to judge ...
... ... your "to the point of quiet" sounds like samadhi, where this emptiness you felt reminds me more of descriptions of satori ... the surprise ... the suddenness ... painlessness ... the engaged disengagement ... the relief from cerebral discourse
... ... and i believe that the secrets of buddhism are many times stumbled upon ...

> I have to admit I have felt better since. Not that I have answers or faith or am a born again Buddhist. It was a curious thing. One minute tears, fear, dispair. Then next minute, emptiness. No fear, pain, processing, thinking. T'was very weird. >

practically a classic description of satori ... especially your reaction

> Has my central nervous system shifted gears into normal, everyday conciousness? Or worse, am I escalating into a hypo-mania? Two years ago, I never had to ask these questions. My cycles were years long and normalcy and spirituality live side by side in relative peace.
>
> It is an interesting topic - eh? - spiritual experience and faith and it neurological underpinnings. Hard to believe I never looked at it before. Oh, I've heard the near death experiences of moving into a tunnel with light at the end is just the firing of a dying neurology, but I never gave it much thought, or credence. That too I wanted to believe in. Life after death. You know, dying faith, takes that with it, the belief in an after or before death. And I'm a channel for God's sake. I don't even want to go into just now what these thoughts have done with that avocation!!! Arlon!!! In that darkened room yesterday, I couldn't even turn to them for answers.
>
> Oh, Jim, I'm so glad this conversation inspires you. While I bless your joy. It gives me great hope that maybe shunyata is really the only answer there is. Can you live in emptiness? Buddhism is so full of ritual, mantra and color that emptiness always seems so, well, empty! A contradiction. >

well, now our tibetans can be positively baroque if not rococo ... ... contrasting with the starkness of japanese zen ...

> Hope your party was more fun than the anticipation.

thank you ... ... it was ... of course

>
> With deep respect,
> Hab
>

and right back at you with kisses and giggles ... ...
... ... and deepest respects too ...
~ jim

p.s. ... the perspective i wanted to offer before:

... we face another challenge when considering neurological dysfunction, spiritual experiences, hallucinatory delusions, consciousness, the social context, et cetera ... especially distinctions made between valid spiritual experiences versus persistent delusion ... ...

.... the challenge is that physical reality, which we do believe in if we are passing for sane, amounts to a cosmic spiritual delusion
... ... its claims to having a substantial permanent self-nature are as empty as any individual's claim to having an autonomous permanent self-nature ... all are empty ...

so there is extra work for the experiencer to do when comparing the appropriate consciousness we use everyday, spiritual experiences and neurologically deficient episodes, because they all must take place on the backgound of our larger cosmic illusion ... ... and should we awaken from this dream, then would (will!!) we be truly conscious ...
~ j

 

Re: Jesus and Manic Depression Article

Posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 12:35:59

In reply to Habbsterini, posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 1:01:37

Fair warning: Printed off the internet, this article runs 31 pages. It is not a derogatory view of the man, however, it is also not a view of him as the "Son of God".

http://www.the-idler.com/IDLER-02/3-20.html

 

re: your two new posts Jimster » lil' jimi

Posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 13:30:38

In reply to re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 23, 2003, at 22:14:52

WOW!!! Oh my, have those responses given me food for typing! I'm so glad I'm back in the saddle again, energy wise, to do so!

Give me a day or so to chew it over and hopefully clearly respond.

My resistance to talking of my husbands "persistant delusion" has changed. Thanks for that.

Is there a difference between shunyata and satori - or is it just two different schools of Bhuddism? Semantics?

Be back soon,
Hab

 

re: satori and sunyata

Posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 15:58:50

In reply to re: your two new posts Jimster » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 13:30:38

hi habby!

> WOW!!! Oh my, have those responses given me food for typing! I'm so glad I'm back in the saddle again, energy wise, to do so! >

and i am so glad that you are feeling better! (!!)

... in fact i value your feeling better so much that i approach this discusssion with care to not degrade your improvement .... which i am making an issue (before i make an issuse of it) because your recovery (may i call it this?) can be an object of this discussion ... and i would not want your turn around jeopardized ...

... so i'm going to depend on you to tell me when to cool it, if this feels adverse to you .. ... i always do that anyway, but i felt the need to make it explicit ...

> Give me a day or so to chew it over and hopefully clearly respond. >

the value here is great enough that any investment pays off with high interest in return ... ... please be at your leisure ... ... ... all in the fullness of time ...

... i remain as morally opposed to being in a hurry as ever ... ... it's against my religion

> My resistance to talking of my husband's "persistent delusion" has changed. Thanks for that. >

you're welcome ... ... with deepest respects and fondest regards for him!

> Is there a difference between shunyata and satori - or is it just two different schools of Bhuddism? Semantics? >

i always feel compelled to make extensive disclaimers whenever i am invited to go beyond my level of expertise, Which we just did there ... ... by a long shot i'd have to say!

as empiricists, we claim no knowledge of things we have not experienced for ourselves ... ... so you can get me to say , "i don't know", because i do not ... ...
then
... ... from what i have studied ... i'd say ...

satori is a sudden flash-like experience of enlightenment which was defined from within zen, (but which must be a universal element) wherein, classically, the absurd and/or banal of some everyday experience triggers a breakthrough of cosmic insight in which total enlightenment can happen instantaneously .... .... this experience may be of something ineffable ...

sunyata is some _________ ineffable.

i have hesitated to use it in a sentence at all ...
... it is used in order to discuss things in conventional terms so that we may speak about things' "total absence of a substantial permanent autonomous self-nature" ... ... which is equivalent to categorical repudiation of absolutism ...
... the challenge is to have a term for this without it invoking its self-nature (ego) or becoming trasformed into an absolute which it seeks to disavow ... ... "sunyata", emptiness, is the term that was chosen ...
... because our mental categorization mechanisms are always dissecting experience into its dualities, we are weak to fall into expecting sunyayta to be thing-like ... a concept or a precept ... something our mind may objectitfy ... something it may abstract ...

... so essentially "sunyata" disqualifies itself as a noun or direct object of a sentence ...

... so, many times, giving up on or the failure of cognitive or intellectual or mental effort is precursor to ... ...

well, to answer your question:
satori can be the experience of sunayta
... in conventional terms that can't be too wrong, i don't believe ...

and once the cognitive/intellectual apparatus can get out of the way, it (may) become(s) possible to suddenly see beyond the veil of the cosmoc illusion ...

... and it does strike me that this may have happened to you ...

... which we may feel better about just crediting it to shear spontaneity ...
... or ... may we consider the possibility of your neurological condition as bringing on this ? ... ... this is the consideration i hesistated to speak, least it hurt you ....

here for discussions sake we have ...
your emptiness experience ....
your improvement/recovery from your recent malaise....
your neurological condition ...

we Could start asigning causes and effects and we may expect what others would assign ...

and in so far as that may benefit you, by invoking conventinal terms and analysis to gain deeper understanding, this is a good thing ...

yet when seen in light of the co-originating of the mutual interdependence of all of these things ... arising together ...

this is in the same way that my relationship with my son not only defines him as our son, but it defines me as his father ... and although it is conventioanlly obvious that, i as his father caused him to be our son, it is just as true that he, by being our son, caused me to be his father ... robeert santiago is 4 and a half and for fun i tell him that he made me a daddy because without him i wouldn't be a daddy ... ... he doesn't believe me because he rejects notions of me as not daddy, bless him ....

all existent things have this relationship and it is this relationship that is sunyata ... because brahma is not sunyata and ishwara is not sunyata since sunyata is not a thing, but the interrelatedness of these things to each other thing ...

the old ontological debates about how many things the world is made of? monism, dualism, the 4 elements, nihilism ... it it one thing or 2 or just these 4 or more ... ... zero things?

what if everything and every single thing were each individually unique?
what if every existent thing was uniquely its own, such that the number of things the world is made of turns out to the the number of things there are ?

such totally unique things would have no way to interact or relate because each would be so totally different from everything else
EXCEPT
for their uniqueness ...
... ... what every object would have in "common" would be that they are unique ... and they would relate on the basis of their ... inability to relate ...

... i'm depending on the value of the saying that no wise thing can be said without stating it as a paradox here ...

> Be back soon,
> Hab

take all the time you like ...
.... .... .... seems like i can hear manjushri laughing at my exposition here ... ... he has a decent sense of humor ... i'm just kidding you, manjushri, man !!

hello,
~ jim

 

re: satori and sunyata » lil' jimi

Posted by habbyshabit on August 25, 2003, at 10:31:26

In reply to re: satori and sunyata, posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 15:58:50

hello Jimi,

Empirically speaking, the word sunyata came to mind as the mind itself began engaging my awareness after that sudden lapse into nothingness. I wasn't sure what it meant myself so I looked it up google wise and without reading much saw that emptiness and shunyata were used together.

I really don't care what it's called, though it does help in describing an experience never quite encountered before, to have a word that has connotations my friend Jimi might recognize. It just popped in the old brain hopper. Perhaps just the mind, as you say, wanting to dissect and catagorize the experience into it's dualities for the purpose of, what, comfort? Ego aggrandizing?

What I do know, from an empirical standpoint, is that this whole discussion of faith dying died in my mind after that. It doesn't seem to matter what the grey matter is doing. The mind (not physical in this sense ) seems for now content to not have an answer, to wander the earth with out a God or religion or supernatural friend/mentor/teacher.

Will this last? Is this just the exhaustion of excessive neurologic firing? Is it the bipolar in some sort of limbo? Is it satori? Is it all of the above - the co-origination and mutual interdependance of all things arising simultaneously. I'd vote for the latter.

Please, Jimi, don't tread lightly around my bipolar neurology. I've been living with it for over 30 years and get testy when treated like I'm some fragil thing with eggshells scattered around my feet.

Yes, my neurology played some role in that experience of nothingness. Maybe it was a marker of the "switch" manic-depressive wise, although gradual progress was happening already. Maybe I "stumbled" onto a Buddhist-like experience because of the mental strain of trying to make sense of all things in my mind - no faith, delusional husband, a changing bipolar condition, etc. and all of the above arising simultaneously in a interdependant relationship!

(Manjushri - bring wisdom to my words, make me sound smart!!!)

Speaking of arising simultaneously... what a lucky boy, your four year old is, to have a retired daddy! Congratulations also on 17 years married to an angel. You must have lived a very good life!

I really appreciate all the words you have written in response to my experience and they have helped steady the rocking boat. It's seems this short post gives short shrift to all you have had to say. Please know that every single word, interdependantly arising (I tease now you know), has left it's mark on my consciousness.

I may be back with more - the topic of brain vs mind is a loaded one.

Hab


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