Psycho-Babble Faith Thread 237552

Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Time to Leave, But First...

Posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

I've been thinking about this message for a while, wondering how & even whether, to post it.

I'm sure that I'll be banned permanently from this forum, but that may be for the best, so I have nothing to lose.

Over the months I've been reading/posting on this board, I've read a wide variety of spiritual ideas - they've covered the whole spectrum... well, almost. All the ideas I've read come from opinion, personal experience & relativity. I've read how anyone can believe anything, & how no one has a market on truth - each person has "their own truth". But how can a potpourri of "truths", some of which directly contradict each other, all be TRUE? Truth is what's missing from this Psycho-Babble Faith board.

Truth is truth, regardless of whether anyone, everyone, or even no one believes it. We don't create our own truth, we just spin fantasies. Truth continues to be truth, regardless. I've become acquainted with a few people through this board, & I care enough about them that I want to share truth with them, even if it brings me nothing but ridicule, scorn & "banishment". It's that important.

This isn't "my" truth. I happen to believe it, but it didn't originate with me. It pre-existed me, all of you, even the whole universe. Truth sets free; all else enslaves.

God is alive & well, contrary to rumours of his demise or inexistence. He has always been & will always be. He created everying we see & all things unseen. He is completely independent from His creation; He doesn't need us, although we desperately need Him. In our arrogance, ignorance & pride we can redefine Him all we want, but we're powerless to change Him. He calls Himself, I AM, because He just is.

He created the universe, our world & us. He made it perfect. He made the first humans perfect. He created humans because He wanted to love us, & to bless us by enabling us to love Him in return & to be in a personal relationship with Him, both now & forever.

But for love to be real, it had to be voluntary, freely given - thus free choice.

From the beginning there was right, & there was wrong. Not right & wrong according to the individual (as is so popularly but errantly believed today), but right & wrong as determined by God (as creator, this was surely His right). God is perfect love. But God is also perfect justice. He requires us to trust & follow Him perfectly in order to remain in relationship with Him.

The first humans chose to do wrong, & thus broke relationship with God, who is perfect. All humans since then changed from immortal, perfect beings, into beings which must experience not only physical death, but spiritual death as well, as punishment for rebelling against God. All persons since the beginning have been born separated from God - spiritually dead - born destined to live apart from God for eternity (often called "hell"). In that "fallen" state, all humans have chosen to follow our own inclinations rather than to trust God who knows best how to lead us. And even when people have tried to do their best to live "perfectly" (which is God's standard), we fail miserably. And when we try to re-invent God so that we can "erase" our guilt, we live in delusion. We are guilty of being imperfect. And God requires perfection.

But all along, God had a plan. From the beginning of time, God existed as a three-yet-one God. Three persons, yet one essence: The Father, the Son, & the Spirit. Distinct, yet One. God Himself, in the person of the Son, put aside His divinity, & condescended to become a humble human. He lived the perfect life, committing no wrongs. He obeyed God completely, serving & loving us people. But He never lost sight of his mission: He must become the sacrifice to God on behalf of all the wrongs of all people who ever lived & ever will live. He paid the price of eternal death for us, so that we could live with God eternally - in other words, He died on our behalf so that we are no longer destined to spend eternity separated from God - or hell. But in order to receive eternal life, we have to recognize our need (all have sinned & have fallen short of the glory of God), & to accept that Jesus, the Son, paid our price for us. We can't use a gift unless we first receive it.

Don't be fooled into believing that there are many paths to heaven. Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth & the life. No one comes to the Father except by me." Either He was lying, He was a lunatic, or He was telling the Truth.

There is no reincarnation ("It is appointed for a man once to die, & after that the judgment"). There are no second chances after you die. You do not have the option of re-inventing God or His Truth. He loves you (I mean, He DIED for you), He wants you to be with Him forever, but you have to do it on His terms, not on your own.

I pray that this message will be posted, that many will read it, & that your hearts will be touched with His truth & His love.

This isn't about being narrow-minded. This is about recognizing that God is God, we aren't God, & He made only one way to Him. I pray that you'll find it.

Shalom, Dena

 

Re: Time to Leave, But First...

Posted by Mercury on June 27, 2003, at 19:42:57

In reply to Time to Leave, But First..., posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

Well Dena, you could be right. Still, I find it interesting that its so easy for people to say "I know the truth and you don't". If it wasn't so devestating to the human family it might almost be funny.

 

Re: Time to Leave, But First...

Posted by Temmie on June 28, 2003, at 18:08:22

In reply to Time to Leave, But First..., posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

I don't think you have anything to fear about ... being banned ... or whatever. If we can't talk openly, we're not in the right company. Lots of interesting points in your post, but I happen to believe in reincarnation. Isn't that what makes our discourse so rich? Divergent views? Take care. Temmie

 

Re: blocked for 2 weeks » Dena

Posted by Dr. Bob on June 29, 2003, at 11:25:46

In reply to Time to Leave, But First..., posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

> Don't be fooled into believing that there are many paths to heaven.

I've asked you before not to put down the beliefs of others, so I'm going to block you from posting for two weeks.

Bob

PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.

 

Dr. Bob

Posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 12:41:40

In reply to Time to Leave, But First..., posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

Yikes, Dr. Bob -- first of all, great sight(s) you have going here! Love the Beatle's music on your home page, and if ... whenever I get time, I would love to look at your research. I presume that's your book featured on the Dr. Bob page. On the subject of being "banned" re. posting beliefs that are not one's own -- eeps -- is there a page of protocal here? I hope I am not treading into unsafe waters, and want to stay a part of the group. Thanks much (and when DO you have time to read all these things, btw?). You're amazing. Temmie

 

Appeal to Dr. Bob

Posted by Mercury on June 29, 2003, at 13:29:06

In reply to Re: blocked for 2 weeks » Dena, posted by Dr. Bob on June 29, 2003, at 11:25:46

Happy Sunday Dr. Bob,

I know I am new to this forum so I hope that I am not out of line. But I'd like to ask you to re-consider your banishment of Dena. I've re-read her post and believe it to be a re-statement of basic Christian tenents. It is a fundamental belief among many Christians that part of their role as true believers is to lead others away from what they percieve as false teachings, towards truth and redemption through Christ. This results in many Christians feeling the need to declare that others are wrong. So I see this not as an attack on others by Dena, but Dena following her faith. Therefore I believe that this should qualify as "protected speech" in any faith based forum. As long as she isn't trying to mock, or ridicule anyone. I think its clear that her intent is to help, not hurt. And in any ruling of this sort, intent should be given heavy consideration. I've been a part of enough on-line communities to knwo the difference between a person who is trying to harm another and one who is simply saying what he/she believes. And regardless of what I might believe, I am open enough to acknowledge that she might be right. At a very minimum, any seeker of spiritual wisdom should consider this point of view very carefully. And so, I ask that Dena not be punished for speaking her truth.

Thank you for monitoring this forum so closely.

Mercury

 

Habby, Mercury, et. al.

Posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 13:50:56

In reply to Appeal to Dr. Bob, posted by Mercury on June 29, 2003, at 13:29:06

Dear Mercury and Habby (excuse my earlier typos),

How nice to have found one another. I’m detouring a bit here from what I should be doing (but writing you is so much more fun). After looking over your posts, I have some questions.

Mercury, from where does your knowing come when you write about being “convinced that those of us who suffer from depression ... act as a magnet for ... denser forms ...?” Just curious. Insights from reading? Thought? Meditation? Messages from unseen teachers?

Interesting to ponder.

I believe the human experience is rife with – well – all manner of troubles and potential for growth. I was born into a family who abused me, emotionally, physically, sexually, and thank God :-) for my belief in His presence. Hope and prayer is what kept me going. I love your writing then, Mercury, “I cannot imagine a life more difficult than one lived in sorrow ... without hope.” Wise words.

So far as the concept of the “matrix” goes, this is beyond my scope and understanding. Perhaps it’s semantics. Clearly there is intelligence and life on myriad levels, and – well, it’s my belief, anyhow, we’re just here for a short while, and there’s important growth and potential in the physical experience. Time to try out the best of who we can be!

Habby, I so relate to your words about the loneliness one feels when friends/acquaintances aren’t able to accompany you to the deepest levels of who you are. I had tea with a new friend (a growing friend) yesterday and she laughed at one point, and said, “Wow, I so enjoy the way you put things. You have such wisdom ....” Made me feel like – huh – maybe some of that essence is coming through ..... And you know, as well as I do, I’m sure, we can’t help but meet, touch, and influence all whom we come into contact with. It’d just be nice if some of those contacts included some of our “own.” You know? It is a bit of a lonely path, especially when one is immersed in the day-to-day struggles of being human (dealing with spouses, children, aging parents, career, finances, etc.)

I have also tried to find a spiritual community, to no avail. I’m not a clap-your-hands-and-raise-your-voice -in-song kind of gal, preferring more of the contemplative approach.

I would be interested in looking at the online channelings from Kryon. I must say the “lighthouse” concept is not new, but perhaps I would find other things there that would “stir my soul,” for lack of a better term.

Ultimately, I look to Jesus Christ as the one most acquainted with the human experience, and to Mary, as the guiding feminine principal for teaching how to open one’s heart for the birth of the Christ within.

Hope we can continue the dialogue.

With love,
Temmie

 

Re: Habby, Mercury, et. al.

Posted by Mercury on June 29, 2003, at 14:47:30

In reply to Habby, Mercury, et. al., posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 13:50:56

Temmie,

As to how I came to my understanding of energy relationships, there is no single source. It is a synthesis of many readings and experiences. I tend to look at God as an infinite system of systems. And physicality as a construction of conscious energy. Its not much different then the belief in a triune God. Father is the energy, the consiousness is the Holy Spirit, and the construction is the Son. Or something like that. I wouldn't call it a "knowing", its really just my best guess. But it is consistant with some things that I am pretty sure about. The most basic of which it that God is All there is, or was, or will be forever and ever. This is True or God is not an infinite being. Many will argue that God is infinite, yet there are things in the Universe that is not God. This is an obvious, and absolute impossibility. And so, I extrapolate from this idea, towards others, like that which appears to be something other than God, must not be a true representation of what that "thing" really is. And if it appears to be separate from something else, it must be connected to everything else in some unseen way. For All things must be One thing, or else everything is hopeless.

Follow?

Mercury

 

Re: Mercury and Temmie

Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 15:53:32

In reply to Appeal to Dr. Bob, posted by Mercury on June 29, 2003, at 13:29:06

This topic has come up before. If you read the paragraphs at the top of this page, Dr. Bob clarifies the guidelines for posting on this board.

 

Re: Mercury and Temmie

Posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 16:58:21

In reply to Re: Mercury and Temmie, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 15:53:32

I apologize (to one and all) ...

if my posts have pressured and/or putdown others’ beliefs. I don’t think so, but one never knows. Habby and Mercury, I enjoy talking with you, but some of what you’ve described, Mercury, seems to require more mental energy to digest than what I have available at the present time. (And this is not a put-down, btw!) :-)

I just want to say, for myself, having a consciousness of “other” doesn’t preclude me from having to do the things I must – and in this life – that includes dealing with anxiety/depression, a bit of quandary over my upcoming empty nest, and concerns about my father (and living with same), who is in the middle of a manic episode, manifesting as irritability and now going on six weeks. I am also in grad school, limping along on $14k as a part-time teacher (which those of you who teach know requires full-time hours in prep and assessment) and ... just ... generally wondering ... when and how and why and what I can do that will make things better.

Dr. Bob’s paragraphs above, especially with regard to the focus here being related to “the service and worship of God ....” represents an ideal we all aspire to, and in whatever form we’re able to support one another, I’m all for it.

I often think of the quote, “In my Father’s house there are many mansions” when pondering the astonishing numbers of diverse paths people choose in their spiritual pursuits. (Who would ever have thought, for example, seeking my utmost to lift up and be of service to God and man I would come into contact with aliens on space ships? It certainly wan't my plan.)

Working with the rosary, channeling messages from the Pleides, use of healing stones, gem-elixers, shammanic journeying, drumming, worship in a faith community, contemplative work at home -- belief in reincarnation -- opposition to those beliefs .... There are many roads and I say, what works for one may seem/feel like heresy to another -- but if we can all be open, kind, gentle, understanding and sympathetic to one another -- that's not a bad way to go.

For now, it helps to know there are others out there who share some of my struggles and goals – and I’m most open to hearing any suggestions of faith-related practices which have been of benefit in the quest for a whole and productive life.

I’ll shut up for awhile now.

Peace,
Temmie

 

Re: Mercury and Temmie » Temmie

Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 19:57:26

In reply to Re: Mercury and Temmie, posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 16:58:21

To my knowledge, you've offended no one. ?

I was just explaining that Dr. Bob's block of Dena could be understood through the paragraphs at the top of this page. Nothing more.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Dinah

 

Re: thanks (nm) » Dinah

Posted by Dr. Bob on June 30, 2003, at 0:49:22

In reply to Re: Mercury and Temmie, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2003, at 15:53:32

 

Re: Habby, Mercury, et. al. » Temmie

Posted by habbyshabit on July 1, 2003, at 0:41:49

In reply to Habby, Mercury, et. al., posted by Temmie on June 29, 2003, at 13:50:56

Temmie,

After I write here, I am going over to the Psycho-social - babble board because I would like to talk to you about your Dad's Manic episode and what's up with that. I have 30 years personal experience in that Dept. See you there later.

As far as the Lighthouse idea not being new - well - I think Kryon would respond that neither are they... It's the first time I have come across it however.

I was reminded either in your post or Mercury's of the Tarot Card #9, that of the Hermit. The old man carrying the lantern. The concept there is of a wise elder living alone in the woods, sort of Merlin style, awaiting the student to be ready. Holding the light so that that student would be attracted to the spot. That idea connotes that contact and teaching must occur for one's light to be revealed and used. That unless one has students and can talk the talk and walk that talk so students can learn both by intellect and modeling, then one was not using one's wisdom and light and, well, if you don't use it you lose it.

Then the idea of Service, which Ram Das and many others and other religions are great pushers of, becomes paramount and unless you are performing service of some kind - mitzvahs, merit, good deeds and whatever, are not accumulating so you can go into the everlasting life and reap the your rewards.

This is where the concept of a lighthouse relieved me greatly. While I've taught many workshops on various topics, channeled for groups and individuals for over 5 years, help little old ladies put up their mini-blinds, help when the situations arise - mostly I am a recluse and don't go out of my way to perform "service".

You can find more of Kryon at kryon.com. If you choose the non-animated version of their site you will find a list of channelings that are usually about thirteen pages long if you print them out. If you can get through what sounds like a lot of gobbely goop in the first few paragraphs, which is repetitive if you read enough of them, there is some very good content in those channels. I have read only the 8th book and plan to purchase the ninth. Kryon has been publishing for 12 years.

I saw them and Lee Carrol, their Medium, at a small group gathering in Utah last year. I fell in love with Lee, who does a rather long presentation before he channels Kryon at the end. The channeling only lasted about a half hour.

Anyway, I have got to get to bed. I'll post on the other board tomorrow.

love,
Habby

 

Have to admit, I agree with Dr. Bob

Posted by CarrieL on July 7, 2003, at 16:13:50

In reply to Time to Leave, But First..., posted by Dena on June 27, 2003, at 16:01:32

I always find it so amuzing that anyone could have the audacity to claim to know and understand the "truth". These people should realize that there are millions (billions?) of such so-called "truths" out there, all in some way contradicting one another, and yet, strangely, all quite similar in essence. Religion is man-made; and Man is fallible.
There is a book by Sigmund Freud: "The Future of an Illusion". I wish it were somehow mandatory that all people suffering any kind of religious dogma read it. In it, Freud sets forth the argument that religions arose out of early man's attempts to "deal" with our helplessness against nature. From an anthropological perspective(even taking the "creation" theory into account), it is clear that all religions have "evolved" out of one another in time, and theoretically they are all, in essence, the same religion. "God" has many names... and many faces. To see the beauty in all of them, I think, is what "He" would have intended. I know that I, for one, would rather be damned to Hell than to worship a God who was so selfish and naive to demand that everyone only believe in Him and call Him by one particular name. The Bible was written by men. And, again, Man is fallible. Someday, I will get to writing this cartoon... in which "God" is looking down upon the world, thinking "You fools! You've all got it wrong... because you've all got it right!"

 

Re: Have to admit, I agree with Dr. Bob » CarrieL

Posted by rayww on July 7, 2003, at 23:56:52

In reply to Have to admit, I agree with Dr. Bob, posted by CarrieL on July 7, 2003, at 16:13:50

I, a fellow sufferer of the religious dogma you describe, would like to write a few words on the subject of truth.

Few Words.

I don't exactly agree with Frued's analogy of religion, or Dena's description of the fall. A little lesson on genealogy here, how many 9th great grandparents do you have? By my calculation it works out to around 2,044. It has been proven that after so long this number, instead of swelling with each generation, starts to decrease. If we could work it all the way back we would end up with only two 300th or so great grandparents, possibly Adam, and Eve.

Adam and Eve were taught truth and wisdom in the Garden of Eden by God himself, being immortal. They would never have had children had they not become mortal through the fall. The fall was an essential part of the eternal plan. Most religions do not know the truth about Adam and Eve. We are actually punished for our own transgressions, not for Adam and Eve's. That's why Christ had to come to redeem us from the fall. Since it was an immortal fall, it took an immortal redemption also.

Adam and Eve taught their children the plan of salvation, as God taught them. The plan of salvation is God's plan for the happiness of man. Adam was the first "prophet" you might say. The term, "religion" wasn't known until other religions came into play. You are right in how you describe them.

God commanded the prophets to keep records. It is quite a miracle that the words of the Prophets of God have been preserved as well as they have. Though not perfect, they give us a pretty good understanding of what we must do to be happy in this life, and live eternally with our heavenly parents after we die. All truth is taught and understood by the spirit.

Religions by the thousands have been invented by man to serve man's purposes as he relates to God. Wars fought in His name, terrible autrocities committed for His sake, brutal torturing, persecution, and all because someone thought they had the corner on truth and the next guy didn't. Right so far?

I don't claim to know all truth, but I am an earnest seeker of it, and I recognize it through the spirit when I am taught it. You have made some pretty bold judgements about all religions and God. That's ok, I'm not criticizing your opinions, even though what you said came close, like Dena to offending me. Truth and wisdom is to be found everywhere. It's no wonder there are so many takes on it.

As far as there being only one plan for salvation? Sure, I believe God has that right. But I also believe God hears the sincere prayers of all people of all religions of the whole earth. If he cares for the fallen sparrow, he surely cares for you and I, the distraught, the abused, and the humble. We do all we can to wreck havoc on his plan, and yet He is there always trying to put the pieces together through people helping people.
lovingly,
rambling rayww

> I always find it so amuzing that anyone could have the audacity to claim to know and understand the "truth". These people should realize that there are millions (billions?) of such so-called "truths" out there, all in some way contradicting one another, and yet, strangely, all quite similar in essence. Religion is man-made; and Man is fallible.
> There is a book by Sigmund Freud: "The Future of an Illusion". I wish it were somehow mandatory that all people suffering any kind of religious dogma read it. In it, Freud sets forth the argument that religions arose out of early man's attempts to "deal" with our helplessness against nature. From an anthropological perspective(even taking the "creation" theory into account), it is clear that all religions have "evolved" out of one another in time, and theoretically they are all, in essence, the same religion. "God" has many names... and many faces. To see the beauty in all of them, I think, is what "He" would have intended. I know that I, for one, would rather be damned to Hell than to worship a God who was so selfish and naive to demand that everyone only believe in Him and call Him by one particular name. The Bible was written by men. And, again, Man is fallible. Someday, I will get to writing this cartoon... in which "God" is looking down upon the world, thinking "You fools! You've all got it wrong... because you've all got it right!"

 

Re: double double quotes » CarrieL

Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2003, at 22:55:09

In reply to Have to admit, I agree with Dr. Bob, posted by CarrieL on July 7, 2003, at 16:13:50

> There is a book by Sigmund Freud: "The Future of an Illusion".

I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon

The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html

Thanks!

Bob


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