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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 8, 2011, at 17:19:47
I have tailored high potency vitamins to my medication regimen with some good results. They have to be high potency, i.e. more than what you would find in a multivitamin. Here are some of the vitamins I like and the dosages I use:
Vitamin E 600IU
Vitamin B1 200mg
Vitamin B6 200mg
Manganese 10mg
Vitamin B12 375micrograms
Selenium 100 micrograms
Vitamin C 500mg
Magnesium 600-700mg
Calcium 750mg
Zinc 50mg
Fish oil 1,500mg
Borage oil (GLA) 1,300mg
GABA 500-750mgI am also a smoker, so by doing that I am depleting my body of vital nutrients, which is why it is important to take antioxidants like C, E, and selenium. I am wondering whether or not it is just as well to take a multivitamin and/or B-complex in addition to the above nutrients. Also, these dosages may be too much for someone who is NOT schizophrenic, i.e. a general multi may suffice for some people. Schizophrenics need lots and lots of nutrients to battle the illness, not to mention medication, which is a must for most schizophrenics.
Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on March 9, 2011, at 11:21:05
In reply to High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 8, 2011, at 17:19:47
I enjoyed your post. Personally, I couldn't make a go of things without my vitamins. Vitamins+medication=treatment success, at least for me. I take higher doses of some of the supplements you mentioned, plus a Wal-Mart brand multivitamin, and I'm having good results. Since you're a smoker, it would seem prudent to take as many antioxidants and B vitamins as you can.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 12, 2011, at 14:28:07
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Christ_empowered on March 9, 2011, at 11:21:05
Yes, my thoughts exactly. Certain vitamins need to be administered if you smoke, and despite the toxicity the vitamins still work. Lately, I can't figure out whether I fit into the supplement categories of either Pyroluria or Histadelia because I take supplements from each category. I'm thinking that I lean more towards Pyroluria since zinc, B6, and manganese are helpful. Yet I also benefit from other supplements not in the Pyroluria category strictly. I think Carl Pfeiffer meant well when he formulated the three biotypes, but he didn't figure that some people would fit into more than one category. Are you aware of the three biotypes? Overmethylation, Undermethylation, and Pyroluria? I think there is another category just for High Copper.
Glad to hear you are doing well. I concur that medication plus high dose vitamins is the way to go for my schizophrenia. I can't speak for everybody since there is a broad spectrum for mental illness. There was a time for me where the medication alone was helping me. I didn't take vitamins years ago because I just didn't research the science behind it. I only started researching vitamin therapy later on close to my psychotic episode, and then really delved into it after I started the medical treatment. Long before the psychosis, I was just being treated for depression and anxiety, so I felt the meds I was on at the time were sufficient. I didn't realize then how important basic nutrients are to one's well-being. Is it possible that if I had taken the fish oil, taken the antioxidants and the B vitamins back then, would I have avoided the psychosis? I can't know for sure. I guess I was grossly uninformed back then. I didn't know squat about vitamins, and I guess I didn't care. The doctors didn't tell me to use vitamin therapy back then, and I wonder if they put much stock into it at all. Probably not. My psychiatrist feels there's no need to take extra vitamins if your diet is good, but my diet is not the best, and I do swear by the vitamins. He doesn't listen. He just says, "whatever works for you," and leaves it at that.
Have you been taking vitamins with your medication ever since you were first diagnosed? I guess I was stupid about vitamins in the beginning, but perhaps you have thwarted a more severe form of illness by using both approaches together?? What does your doctor say about using vitamins with medication? Does he or she give it any credence?
Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on March 12, 2011, at 18:56:03
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 12, 2011, at 14:28:07
hey. Don't beat yourself up about not starting supplements earlier. When I was younger, my symptoms were milder but I was way over-medicated--stimulants, neuroleptics, antidepressants, anticonvulsants, benzos--and I think part of my problem now (which I think the supplements are helping/have helped to correct) is b/c of brain changes/damage caused by the over-medication early on in my illness.
I only recently came to the (one would think) rather obvious conclusion that a mix of supplements and carefully chosen medication(s) just might be the best way to deal with my madness. I think I may have gone a bit overboard in terms of the number and dosage of the supplements I'm taking, but, hey--it's probably a whole lot safer (maybe even somewhat beneficial) to take a whole bunch of antioxidants than it is to take a whole bunch of psychotropics.
I don't understand a lot of the alternative theories of mental illness. My own view of the situation, which is completely non-professional and based on a rudimentary understanding of how these things work, is that I need a tranquilizer in my life to calm down the agitation that can lead to mania and/or "agitated psychotic depression". So, the neuroleptic is the center of my treatment plan. To the neuroleptic (in my case Abilify b/c of the weight profile, lack of sedation, and once-daily dosing), I first added vitamins E, C, selenium and niacianmide, primarily for TD prevention and also for possible anti-anxiety benefits (especially the niacinamide).
I later added in NAC (for my overall health) and alpha lipoic acid. I also added in a rather large amount of green tea extract. I ended up having to take celexa; thanks to the supplements, I've had an excellent response to the celexa w/o any side-effects (I'd tried abilify+celexa years before w/o any real success; then when I tapered the celexa, I had terrible depression).I recently added in fish oil because, well...why not, right? Sometimes I feel that I'm spending too much $$$ on supplements, but then I think: how much do I stand to lose if I develop TD? Or if I have to add in something like Seroquel or even a less expensive drug, such as Depakote, lithium, or lamictal?
I hope you're able to tweak your own vitamin program to get what you need out of treatment. I always enjoy your posts, btw.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 14, 2011, at 16:56:25
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Christ_empowered on March 12, 2011, at 18:56:03
My symptoms were milder when I was younger too. I think it all started in my college years, which was about 1991-92. I had terrible anxiety back then and throughout my career years. I think that I didn't excel in my career choices because of the anxiety. Oh well, that's in the past. I also think that I didn't look for companionship until I was medicated, specifically with benzos (Ativan was like a god-send to me). Unlike most schizophrenics who develop the illness in their 20s, my full-blown psychosis didn't start until I was 33. That's usually the time that females develop it, not males. Males get it younger usually than females. I started getting involved with ghost hunting, taking pictures of old historic places, going to cemeteries with my digital recorder, hoping to catch some voices on tape and then analyze it on my computer. The funny thing is that that's exactly what ghost hunters do, and they aren't necessarily psychotic. I was recording voices that weren't actually in my head. I even have a pretty significant photo of a ghost in period clothing. What puzzles me is how interconnected our own internal voices are with the voices of the dead? Was I more in tune with the other side just because I was naturally sensitive to it? My family thinks the whole ghost thing is ridiculous, but to this day I wonder exactly what was I experiencing back then? Was it all in my mind, or did I touch something beyond what we know as physical reality? Back then I delved into metaphysics and spirit energy. I don't do this anymore because I'm not convinced there is any significance to it, but in the back of my mind, I still wonder if some people experience things that necessarily don't jive in the real world. Maybe I was caught in two different realities. I know, this sounds really strange, right? I even knew someone where I worked (who by the way was not psychotic) who had recorded voices of disembodied spirits and was a member of a local ghost hunting group. Anyway, that's in the past, but I still have saved my one photo of the ghost on my computer. I took it with a standard 35mm camera, nothing fancy, and I took it at night. I thought maybe I was just imagining it, but to me it's plain as day, a little fuzzy, but definitely the face of someone.
Back to the supplements. I have tried high dose Niacin in the past, and that eventually failed. I think some psychotics benefit from Niacin or niacinamide, especially if you have histapenia (over-methylation). I think I'm more of a pyroluric, benefitting from things like B6, zinc, manganese, and GLA. Do you use folate or folic acid as part of your treatment? Again, folate is great for histapenic people, but contraindicated for histadelics. I know personally, I can't tolerate use of folate probably because my folate levels are either normal or high. I do benefit somewhat from vitamin B12, but I take a very low dosage everyday, only 375micrograms is my optimum dosage and works very well for me. Thank you for your posts. I enjoy reading them as well. I think this a great place for communicating with people. I've actually been here since 2008, and I'm always interested in what people have to say, but I don't read all of the threads, and I try to put my two cents in where I can.
See ya!Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 15, 2011, at 1:54:54
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 14, 2011, at 16:56:25
I do like fish oil for the omega 3s, and I also use borage oil to balance the omega 3s with omega 6s. I read somewhere that said that giving a couple grams of fish oil per day to children may avert psychotic symptoms later in life. I thought this was interesting, but of course, there's no scientific evidence to back up this statement. However, I've seen many sources that say fish oil, especially the EPA content, is absolutely essential for schizophrenics because of altered fatty acid metabolism in the illness. I think the brain is about 30% fat. I may be mistaken about this figure; it may be a little higher than that. Have you ever used borage oil, or evening primrose oil? I found that adding the borage oil to the fish oil improved my depression as opposed to using either one alone. I take about 1,500mg of fish oil and one 1,300mg capsule of Borage oil. When I first started taking the borage oil, I had to take more, about 2 capsules per day. As it started to build in my system, after a few months, I realized I could get by with just one capsule per day. With the fish oil, I found my optimum dosage rather quickly and have stayed on three 500mg capsules per day. I can't take anymore than this because it gives me too much energy, a kind of irritating energy, so I listen to my body and just limit the dosage.
The thing I love about the fish oil is that after several months of usage, my triglyceride levels were back to normal and have stayed normal. The antipsychotic I take can raise triglyceride levels. In fact, there is a new drug on the market made with fish oil that lowers high triglycerides. Interesting.Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on March 15, 2011, at 15:53:16
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 15, 2011, at 1:54:54
I like your approach to your vitamins. My own approach has been to throw anything that might be beneficial at it in hopes that something will happen.
I tried evening primrose oil, but it didn't help. The fish oil seems to be helping both my mood and my skin (I have rosacea and eczema), so that's nice. Everything else seems to somehow work to keep me stable and also reduce anxiety. I've been really impressed at how well I've been doing, especially since adding in a bit (20mgs) of celexa.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 16, 2011, at 16:42:39
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Christ_empowered on March 15, 2011, at 15:53:16
Have you tried Lexapro? I think that is a newer, more effective antidepressant chemically related to Celexa? The antidepressant would certainly help with the anxiety. My doctor's choice for me is Zoloft, 200mg per day. I find it is very effective for generalized anxiety disorder, but not so much for social phobia, which I seem to have. For the social phobia, I try to implement techniques of cognitive behavioral therapy. I like fish oil too. I'm not sure exactly what it does, but it helps with my mood.
I try to spread out my vitamins throughout the day. Take a few, let them absorb properly, then take a few others, and so on throughout the day instead of just taking them all at once. I have a specific schedule that I follow, and I take them the same way everyday so my body gets used to a routine. I know it sounds weird to do it this way, but it works for me. Thanks for your post. See ya.Lao
Posted by Christ_empowered on March 17, 2011, at 5:22:09
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 16, 2011, at 16:42:39
If I had good insurance, I'd be all over some lexapro. Since I don't, the $4 generic celexa is going to have to do for now. Luckily, when combined with supplements, it works quite well.
Posted by jjjaspar on April 28, 2011, at 16:31:17
In reply to High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 8, 2011, at 17:19:47
I am very much in favor of some individualization of regimens based on a person's lifestyle, eating, nutritional profiles, etc. For that I am in favor of MDs who specialize in integrative medicine. The Life Extension Foundation (http://www.lef.org) has helped us out on more than one occasion, but a consult is not a substitute for a regular MD who can keep tabs on us.
I also understand the use of a one-size-fits-most supplement such as EMPowerplus (http://www.truehope.com) but even that may only be effective as a starting point.
Your regimen looks pretty good, although I have read some disturbing information about smoking plus vitamin C.
My doctor is using SpectraCell analyses on patients to measure nutrional levels inside cells. Some genetic variations can affect those levels such as vitamin D receptor genetic variants that hinder the passage of vitamin D into the cell. Doing a search on "Brain Health Vitamin D" or "mental health vitamin D" can show how important that one simple vitamin is (it is actually a hormone) for the functioning of the brain. I just did the search and came up with this audio:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17307601 and these articles:
http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/641039.html
http://itsnotmental.blogspot.com/2010/12/brain-health-vitamin-d.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8058183.stm
Posted by jjjaspar on June 2, 2011, at 10:02:01
In reply to Re: High potentcy vites for Schizophrenia, posted by Lao Tzu on March 15, 2011, at 1:54:54
> I do like fish oil for the omega 3s, . . . I've seen many sources that say fish oil, especially the EPA content, is absolutely essential for schizophrenics because of altered fatty acid metabolism in the illness. . . .
>In fact, there is a new drug on the market made with fish oil that lowers high triglycerides.
I think you are referring to Lovaza which is prescription, but all it is is fish oil. The EPA to DHA ratio, I recall is about 1 to 1. Here is some compiled info about the fish oil for schizophrenia, amounts, and brands including Lovaza:
http://itsnotmental.blogspot.com/2008/01/brain-health-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish.html
http://itsnotmental.blogspot.com/2008/02/omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil-dha-epa.html
http://itsnotmental.blogspot.com/2008/02/fish-oil-and-favorite-brands-of-omega-3.html
This is the end of the thread.
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