Psycho-Babble Alternative Thread 834118

Shown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired

Posted by Gadman on June 11, 2008, at 7:46:31

Hello All,

I am currently taking a low dose of Lex and a low dose of Wellbutrin to treat my GAD and mild depression. Lately I have been experiencing low energy and drive and thought I would try supplements before increasing my meds.

I have what I consider to be an odd situation going on here... I have just recently added Tryptophan and Tyrosine to my regime in hopes of boosting my SSRI and Wellbutrin effects in the short term.

Over the last week, on two separate occasions I took 1 500 mg L-Tryptophan to see the effects. I took this in the middle of the day. Both days I took it, it made me yawn for a short period of time, but then my heart would race and I would get extremely wired.

Yesterday, I took a 500 mg capsule of L-tyrosine (without the tryptophan) and it had the opposite effect? About two hours after I took it I got extremely tired. I didn't feel like doing anything except sitting around.

I was wondering if anyone else experienced anything like this from these two supplements? I feel this is opposite from what they are actually suppose to be doing.

Thanks,

Gadman

 

Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired

Posted by Lao Tzu on June 11, 2008, at 15:30:43

In reply to Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired, posted by Gadman on June 11, 2008, at 7:46:31

The L-tryptophan probably interacted with one of your medications. Ask a pharmacist or doctor if this is possible. I used to take tyrosine. On many occasions, I would have to take about 3,000mg at once to get some extra energy for a while, and the effect never lasted the whole day. That was years ago. Just last year, I thought why not try tyrosine again to see if it will give me a little boost. It didn't do a damn thing for me. Some people say it helps their mood, others say it is useless for improving mood. You be the judge. I can suggest one drug that is great for energy and drive, and that is Provigil. It's the only med that got me going in the morning and lasted for most of the day. It really helped me for 2 or 3 years. I actually felt much less depressed. If you just want to go natural, there are some supplements that may be of help to you. B12 is good for energy and depression and L-glutamine (amino acid) can be helpful for energy. The only thing about B12 is that if you try it, I would start off at a low dosage until you get used to it and then raise the dosage. Most B12 pills come in either 500mcg sublingual or 1,000mcg tablets. What I did was cut the 1,000mcg pill into four pieces with a pill cutter. I took one piece (about 250mcg) for about a week, then bumped it up to 500 mcg. If you have a B12 deficiency, then 500 might not be enough and you might have to bump it up even further. Personally, I can say it helped me, but it's definitely not as good as the Provigil. There are a host of products out there for mental clarity and energy, usually consisting of combinations of herbs, vitamins, amino acids, co-factors, and minerals. Ray Sahelian has a website with a lot of interesting products, one called Mind Power RX (www.raysahelian.com). I've never used it, but it does have herbs in it, and you need to be careful if you decide to use herbs as there could be an interaction with your medicine. Good luck.

 

Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired

Posted by bleauberry on June 12, 2008, at 17:53:14

In reply to Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired, posted by Gadman on June 11, 2008, at 7:46:31

Lexapro even at a low dose is a very powerful on serotonin. So even a little bit of more-than-normal enhancement of serotonin production is going to go a long way. 500mg tryptophan is equivalent to 50mg 5htp, which is a lot of serotonin production. Even when I took tryptophan by itself with no drugs, 500mg was a lot. My tolerable amount of 5htp was in the 10mg to 25mg range, which is equivalent to 100mg-250mg tryptophan. That was without drugs.

You might have experienced a tad bit of serotonin storm, or serotonin syndrome. Or it could have been something similar to the start-up effects of ssris where anxiety is increased. In any case, for your particular symptoms, I doubt more serotonon will help. Too much serotonin already is a likely culprit to those symptoms.

Wellbutrin. Now that is a confusing drug and no one really knows how it works. It somehow has interplay with the same chemicals that tyrosine converts to. The strange effects you experienced were probably not directly related to tyrosine, but rather the combination of wellbutrin and tyrosine. Had you tried tyrosine all by itself, the experience might have been a lot different. My best intuition says that, but no way to know for sure.

Sometimes increased dopamine/norepinephrine function results in calming and mellowing rather than activating. That is seen when ADD kids are helped by a psychostimulant like Ritalin or Adderall. It has something to do with the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors, of which Lexapro itself is probably exerting a significant effect one way or the other.

If you want to try experimenting more, try very very low doses of tryptophan, or better yet, 5htp. 5htp is cleaner and more direct. For tyrosine, try very low doses. On a day that you can afford to experiment if things go weird, try a higher dose. For custom size doses, you can empty out capsules or cut pills. Mix custom dose powders in juice or reload them in an empty capsule. For powders I usually put them on a plate and cut divide into roughly equal piles...3 piles, 4 piles, 6 piles, whatever the desired dose is.

In my experience it is hard to mix natural and pharmaceutical things, other than the previous suggestions for particular vitamins. That's good. You might do better adding something else pharmaceutical, or stop the pharms and just do naturals. The previous suggestion of provigil is one I agree with, though I would drop the wellbutrin first. It just confuses the whole thing and might even mess it up.

With all things unchanged, SAMe 200mg a day is worth a try, increasing over time as tolerated. In one clinical study it was shown that SAMe could be combined at fairly high doses with ongoing ssris without serotonin syndrome.

Deplin is worth considering also.

All that being said, the symptoms you complained about commonly come with the territory when taking ssris.

 

Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired

Posted by Gadman on June 12, 2008, at 20:12:50

In reply to Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired, posted by bleauberry on June 12, 2008, at 17:53:14

Thanks for the reply from both of you. I find it very interesting that 500 mg of Tryptophan is alot. The package recommends 3 of these a day? I know that I am on Lexapro but only at a low dose.

I did try the tryptophan today at appr 250 mg. I just emptied half of the capsule. It actually had some pretty pleasant effects. It lifted me up slightly which is what I was looking for and did not cause my heart to race.

I may try as you suggest and take a lower dose of the Tyrosine and see what happens.

Thanks again

Gadman

 

Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired » Gadman

Posted by bleauberry on June 13, 2008, at 19:22:49

In reply to Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired, posted by Gadman on June 11, 2008, at 7:46:31

In my experience the recommendations on the bottle, any bottle, should be totally ignored. Actually, more than that, be very skeptical.

What you want is a dose that is right for you, and only you. No generic guess by someone else is going to know what that dose is. Start real low, increase as tolerated to see what happens.

 

Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN)

Posted by slecorre on August 30, 2008, at 9:00:27

In reply to Re: Odd Case: Tyrosine=Tired, Tryptophan=Wired, posted by bleauberry on June 12, 2008, at 17:53:14

L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN in Canada) as poison

I started taking TRYPTAN (L-Tryptophan) on April 14, 2008, as a sleeping aid and tranquilizer, while trying to go off Risperdal and Trazodone (Desyrel). It worked for that purpose, and I was able to reduce both medications to a minimal amount.

I continued taking the TRYPTAN (500 mg, 6x/day), as I thought its tranquilizing and sleep-aid effect was still needed.

I redeveloped several old recurring health problems (symptoms) over the time I went on TRYPTAN until the day I stopped taking it, including:
- more severe and frequent menopausal hot flashes
- patches of "old person's" skin (sebhorreic keratoses) on my back returning to a dark, thick, crusty state
- gradual return of migraine headaches
- gradual return of IBS (severe abdominal pain, lasing for hours)
- NEW: my eyes became very sensitive to the light (light hurts my eyes)
- NEW: developed a nasal polyp in my right nostril & sinus

(Following a bout with the flu, during which I missed work from February 29 to March 4, 2008, my right nostril/sinus never unblocked. The flu happened well before I went on TRYPTAN. Was my stuffy nose blocked with a polyp from the outset, or did the polyp develop after I went on the TRYPTAN?)

I stopped taking TRYPTAN on August 27, 2008 to see if I would get some relief from my ever-worsening IBS (severe abdominal pain, recurring day after day and lasting for hours at a time).

Here are the changes that happened as soon as I stopped taking TRYPTAN:
- IBS abdominal pain disappeared overnight (literally)
- migraines have not recurred
- eyes have lost their sensitivity to the light (noticed the following day - Aug.28/08)
- by the next day, menopausal hot flashes had already become less frequent and less intense
- after 2 days (Aug.29/08) my nasal polyp has deflated (gone flat)
- after 2 days (Aug 29/08) the "old person" skin patches (sebhorreic keratoses) on my back have gone from thick brown and crusty, to pink, flat and smooth.
Let my testimonial stand.

 

Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN) » slecorre

Posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2008, at 10:41:59

In reply to Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN), posted by slecorre on August 30, 2008, at 9:00:27

Just to add some context to this testimonial....

The adverse effects described here were caused by peripheral conversion of tryptophan to serotonin, which is not the desired outcome.

In certain metabolic states, intestinal tryptophan hydroxylase is highly upregulated. One risk factor for that is low blood concentration of LDL cholesterol. So, although this state is good for the heart, it promotes the first-pass conversion of ingested tryptophan to 5-HTP, which is rapidly converted to serotonin. You want that to happen in the brain, not the gut.

The entire problem can be avoided with the concurrent use of a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor, e.g. carbidopa. For some reason, North American doctors do not prescribe the combination, whereas European doctors seldom fail to do so.

Lar

 

Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN) » Larry Hoover

Posted by slecorre on December 22, 2008, at 9:49:54

In reply to Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN) » slecorre, posted by Larry Hoover on December 21, 2008, at 10:41:59

Hi Larry,

Thank you. The scientific explanation of what I was experiencing is much appreciated! Makes me happy also, to realize that it could be because I don't have much bad cholesterol in my blood.

Susan

 

Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN)

Posted by Tepidarium on April 19, 2009, at 18:34:15

In reply to Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN) » Larry Hoover, posted by slecorre on December 22, 2008, at 9:49:54

I too have low cholesterol.

I have been taking tryptophan for the past two weeks to help my mood. The first week, my dosage was 500mg in the afternoon and 500mg in the evening for a total of 1g a day. I increased the dosage to 2.250 g per day for the second week.

Subsequently, I developed dilated pupils and a mild headache, body aches; this scared me. I'm on my second day of cessation from tryptophan and my eyes are getting better.

Now, I'm freaked about all the talk of heart fibrosis in cases where tryptophan is converted into serotonin in the gut. The whole reason why I took tryptophan over 5-HTP is that I thought I would avoid this.

 

Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN)

Posted by tonyz on May 28, 2009, at 14:33:39

In reply to Re: my experience w/L-Tryptophan (TRYPTAN) » Larry Hoover, posted by slecorre on December 22, 2008, at 9:49:54

I have taken 1500 mg / night for maybe a month or two. I can't say I had any noticeable side effects; however, my cholesterol levels were in the normal to slightly high range at the time. I was taking in combination with other meds about 125mg of Nortriptyline, valium and seroquel. All of the drugs were being tapered downwards at the time. I can't be certain as to how well it affected my sleep which was the primary reason I was taking it. Also if you check a drug interactions site you will find that L-tryptophan is contraindicated with Nortriptyline due to the potential of serotonin shock/syndrome. I did not experience this, but it would make very cautious of trying this mix again.

When I switched brands to Source Naturals, I thought I was experiencing a little nausea in the mornings. That was the only side effect that I noticed. But whether it was from that brand or a cumulative effect, I can't be certain.


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