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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sigismund on April 20, 2021, at 0:58:14
Posted by alexandra_k on April 20, 2021, at 2:56:43
In reply to Psiloscybin, posted by sigismund on April 20, 2021, at 0:58:14
sigh.
i really wanna say 'timothy leary was so... 1960's'
i believe this to be a... hoax...
?
something along the lines of that.
they want permission to manufacture LSD in the name of science research. so they can do with it what they've always done with it... feed it to vulnerable children for the purposes of molesting them and the like. the teachers. at the universities.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 20, 2021, at 3:17:57
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 20, 2021, at 2:56:43
typical anti-depressants are not very nice things to be taking, for sure.
i feel bad because many people suffer from depression and they hope for a cure... or they feel hopless that there isn't one.
and they maybe start to feel hope about research like this...
like how the rabbit in the video was hopeful about how the experiments on him would make a difference to people...
i don't think that scientifically respectable researchers would really hold much hope that LSD would help with depression.
i do think that people are very motivated to make money off of LSD like how people made money off opiates and the like...
i am remembering now why i didn't finish a science degree in new zealand.
majoring in physiology meant there was a compulsory third year course where we were required to deliver something to a sheep to stop the heart... and then revive the heart with adrenalin (if we could). and then do something to stop the heart... and then revive teh sheep with adrenalin (if we could). until the sheep would be revived never again.
we were required to do that and write up what we had done in order to get a Bachelor of Science (Physiology) from the University of AUckland. And I didn't want to do that / be part of that.
I wanted to do Medicine to help people. Not to torture sheep to death.
So I went to Otago...
Anatomy. I was going to do... Because people gave consent to donate their body to science. So I didn't think I would be forced to spend my tiem torturing animals. Only... We had to do zebra fish embryology research... And learn about rat ovulation... ANd so on... They wouldn't let you complete a science Degree withotu your being fairly seriously implicated in the whole animal research / torture / experimentation thing...
Even the bodies we had... They werent' processing the bodies from donors. We were learning from unlabeled or incorrectly labelled specimens that nobody seemed to know where they came from. Plastinated from... India. They recknoned. The bones of who knows who. We didn't even know (couldn't tell and they weren't labelled) male or female half the time. Random collections of teeth.
There were bowls of water. You were supposed to wash your hands. It's part of Maaori culture even. Tapu. Cleanse with water. But nodbody did.
You were supposed to not eat your lunch in the room with the plastinated speciments. The organs in pickle jars. But people regularly did.
I wanted to do the third year course without doing the second year course because I had covered the content of the second year course in previous courses. THey wouldn't let me. I wrote him back and said 'I was going to pay teh Univesrity money to do the third year course. You tried to force me to do the second year course first. Now I leave the Univesrity and you don't get any money from me for either course. Good job!!'
I went to a few research talks that seemed... Honest. Legit. Then soemthing happened adn... I don't know who it was... The DHB? I don't know. Then it was weird marketing weirdness. It got taken over by something policitical. THe message had been... Washed??
There may be some things in NZ but I (in particular) have been tagged with some kind of exclusion thing whereby I am not to see it and am certainly not to be part of it.
I see the vast thickness of... Idiocy research. STupidity. Morally deprived.
I went to a talk by a girl who seemed pleasant enough... But she found herself (at the behest of her supervisor) immobilising rats. Padding their cages so they couldn't climb the walls. Apparently that's what the rats will do without a treadmill. So they padded their cages to prevent them climbing the walls. They wanted to study muscle atrophy, you see. They wanted to make a model of a human coma patient. They wanted to force coma upon rats and study them in their state of coma.
You know, until they get to induce comas on people and study that...
She chose to do those things in order to get her Degree. She got her Degree. And I guess I thought... Yeah... But she won't get a job in academia because she's a person who will torture other bebcause... TO get her Degree. Because her supervisor told her to?
Many other studnets like that.
That's what there seems to be...
I knew a guy in Australia who got to do Medicine after torturing 7 cats. Holding their skulls steady while he inserted electrodes to try and take single cell recordings of pyramidal neurones while they look at visual spatial gratings.
To crack the neural code.
Because if we could hear a neurone speak it would say...
?
?
wtf?
He tortured 7 cats and then he got to start studying Medicine. But there was something funky where they didn't give him his PhD... He was needing to return to the ANU because they were keeping him enrolled / working past the time he was supposed to because...
I don't know if he ever got his Medical Degree. To be fair.
Maybe he didn't.
I don't know.
Posted by Hugh on April 20, 2021, at 10:23:27
In reply to Psiloscybin, posted by sigismund on April 20, 2021, at 0:58:14
A magic mushroom trip lifted me out of a suicidal depression, and it would be years before I would again be severely depressed.
If this drug hadn't been outlawed for decades, millions of people could have had much better lives.
Posted by sigismund on April 21, 2021, at 2:56:42
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by Hugh on April 20, 2021, at 10:23:27
That was my experience.
Not the sort of drugs that inspire reuse, not really.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2021, at 1:30:53
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin » Hugh, posted by sigismund on April 21, 2021, at 2:56:42
yeah. it is possible that trips helped me, too. not mild trips, though, major ones. i shouldn't be judge-y.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2021, at 1:31:51
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2021, at 1:30:53
i'm just dubious about the academics getting in on it is all.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2021, at 1:33:40
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 22, 2021, at 1:31:51
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary
again. getting in on it *again*
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2021, at 19:15:50
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 20, 2021, at 2:56:43
>they want permission to manufacture LSD in the >name of science research. so they can do with it >what they've always done with it... feed it to >vulnerable children for the purposes of molesting >them and the like. the teachers. at the >universities.
Huh? Are you on shrooms?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2021, at 19:22:57
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 20, 2021, at 3:17:57
>i don't think that scientifically respectable >researchers would really hold much hope that LSD >would help with depression.
On the contrary. There is an incredible amount of scientific research, published by very reputable journals and researchers suggesting that psiloscybin has significant (and rapid acting) antidepressant effects that can last for weeks or months.
Interestingly, researchers don't believe it is directly related to the psychedelic experience. The can (at least in mice) tease apart the psychedelic and antidepressant effects.
Of note, LSD and psiloscybin produce rapid increases in synaptic plasticity and neurogenesis. The depressed brain can very easily get stuck in patterns of though, and it is thought that psychedelics can restore more the necessary plasticity to help forge new connections and patterns of thinking.
I would not HESITATE for a second to try psiloscybin. To be honest, I would have rather gone this route WAY before taking traditional meds.
Linkadge
Posted by alexandra_k on April 23, 2021, at 23:18:08
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin » alexandra_k, posted by linkadge on April 22, 2021, at 19:22:57
> There is an incredible amount of scientific research, published by very reputable journals and researchers suggesting that psiloscybin has significant (and rapid acting) antidepressant effects that can last for weeks or months.
I think we may have different definitions of 'reputable'.
I accept what are saying that many Universitities (including Ivy League Universities) are going on about benefits of micro-dosing, they are calling it. But in order for them to micro-dose people they need to get permission to manufacture, store, and give the substance to undergraduate research subjects, typically, and then other people, too...
> Of note, LSD and psiloscybin produce rapid increases in synaptic plasticity and neurogenesis.
Like what happens when people dream?
> I would not HESITATE for a second to try psiloscybin. To be honest, I would have rather gone this route WAY before taking traditional meds.
I used to take mushrooms, yes. When they were in season I would commonly take them over the weekend. Did they help with depression? Well... You sort of have to get up early to go find them. They gave me a reason to get up early on a brisk day and go foraging about in the forest. That, in itself, was likely good for my mental health.
I enjoyed the company of the people I took them with. It gave us a reason to get together and hang out as a click or group with something in common for a few hours. The purpose or intent was to have a pleasant experience all around.
Yeah.
I could see that different people do different sorts of things. Some people join a cycle club or whatever. Maybe play hockey. I don't know. Cafe culture.
For me... I think it was like dreaming when I was awake. A bit like a lucid dream. Sometimes I had an intense feeling of something like profoundity. Like... Awe. I think it magnified feelings. Amplified them in some way. A little with the lower emotions. Primal ones like fear or whatever. Sometimes. But it amplified particularly the higher cognitive emotions like awe or curiority or wonder... Feelings like those.
I also found that my visual field expanded so as to be 360 degrees but what was going on outside my actual visual field was dream hallucinations.
I also had synthasthesia... Feeling colors.
Yeah.
It was something to do, that's for sure.
I shouldn't be judge-y. There's no reason for me to.
I guess I'm just more focused on political things these days. How people are kept in conditions of deprivation and poverty and so on by governments. How their depression or whatever is a response to that situation and how the horrible feelings they have actually have a function (should have would have if all went well) to motivate them to figure out a way ot effect change.
I worry about drugs being used to... Placate.. To ... Anesthetise. To immobilise. To prevent and restrict development and growth.
I suppose there is a role / place.
It's just where I am trying ot keep my focus for now.
I do not regret my LSD / mushie experiences at all.
Actually. NOw that I reflect upon them. Yeah.
Posted by linkadge on April 24, 2021, at 15:52:21
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin » linkadge, posted by alexandra_k on April 23, 2021, at 23:18:08
>I think we may have different definitions of >'reputable'.
There really aren't different definitions of reputable. I'm saying the research is as sound as any research for efficacy on standard antidepressants.
>are going on about benefits of micro-dosing, >they are calling it.
We are not talking about microdosing here. We are talking about taking enough for a full psychedellic experience. This is why the drug must be administered in a controlled / monitored setting.
>undergraduate research subjects, typically, and >then other people, too...
This is not the 1960s. We are talking about standard clinical trials where people (with treatment resistant clinical depression, are carefully weighing the costs and benefits.
>Like what happens when people dream?
Yes, but plasticity (in limbic and forebrain regions of depressed patients) is impaired.
>I used to take mushrooms, yes. When they were in >season I would commonly take them over the >weekend. Did they help with depression? Well... >You sort of have to get up early to go find >them. They gave me a reason to get up early on a >brisk day and go foraging about in the forest. >That, in itself, was likely good for my mental >health.Nobody is saying that all treatments will work for all individuals. Ketamine, for example, is a miracle for some, but not everybody responds. Again, nobody is saying you have to take this. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that university students are being forcibly given these drugs.
>I could see that different people do different >sorts of things. Some people join a cycle club >or whatever. Maybe play hockey. I don't know. >Cafe culture.
Right, but we're talking about treating a serious, life threatening illness. Many people with depression commit suicide. For these individuals, taking a 'spin class' is not going to solve anything. There is ample evidence, at this stage, that psiloscybin (for some individuals) can have a very rapid antidepressant effect. After all, it activates certain serotonin receptors very potently. We do the same with SSRIS (in a slightly different fashion).
I also had synthasthesia... Feeling colors.
(sounds interesting to me).
>I do not regret my LSD / mushie experiences at >all. Actually. NOw that I reflect upon them. >Yeah.
Linkadge
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 0:32:19
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by linkadge on April 24, 2021, at 15:52:21
hello.
thanks for chatting with me :)
> There really aren't different definitions of reputable.
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel... actually, there are. there's a lot of... shall we say... shonky? research out there. i think it is because you have a lot of corrupt people who have obtained money by illegitimate means. and their children (who aren't very bright) sometimes want mommy and daddy to purchase for them various things...
and so there are really rather a lot of publications that (IMHO) proclaim nothing more than that mummy and daddy purchased for them some place in the publication of... a publication that proclaimed or professed... nothing much besides... the fact that mommy and daddy paid for them to be included in a publication about something...
i'm not sure if that makes any sense...
there is supposed to be this thing. in medicine, particularly, whereby publications increase ones... esteem. that sets into place this system or struture whereby corrupt individuals want to buy those things. how do we mark those individuals as corrupt? well....
one idea is to send them to nz and get them to engage in research that everybody will know immediately is.. conducted by morally depraved individuals...
i just mean to say that...
having a publication... even having a publication in an 'esteemed' journal... doesn't mean anything. it is pubilcity. sure. for what? well... that depends, actually, on the quality / sicnetific merits of the publication. often it's nothing other than proclaiming the... money that is behind the.... uh... publicity... for... uh.. stupid pieces of crap. oh. that wasn't very politic of me...
you get the idea.
I'm saying the research is as sound as any research for efficacy on standard antidepressants.
uh. that's not saying a lot...> >are going on about benefits of micro-dosing, >they are calling it.
> We are not talking about microdosing here.
oh. my bad. that' teh nz strategy for building up to manufacture...
> We are talking about taking enough for a full psychedellic experience. This is why the drug must be administered in a controlled / monitored setting.
ok. yeah.>undergraduate research subjects, typically, and >then other people, too...
> This is not the 1960s.
agreed.
> We are talking about standard clinical trials where people (with treatment resistant clinical depression, are carefully weighing the costs and benefits.
hmm. i see...
> >Like what happens when people dream?
> Yes, but plasticity (in limbic and forebrain regions of depressed patients) is impaired.
because they REM sleep less>
> Nobody is saying that all treatments will work for all individuals. Ketamine, for example, is a miracle for some, but not everybody responds.the date rape drug? the 'are you happy sleeping in a communal sleep environment (aka marae)' drug? mmm hmm yes... i see....
> Again, nobody is saying you have to take this. Also, I don't know where you get the idea that university students are being forcibly given these drugs.i never said people were forced. my concern is that vulnerable people are being exploited in a manner that serves the interests of the exploiters. where by any progress of breakthrough for the people is one where they are depenent on superiors for future dosings / future epiphenies...
> Right, but we're talking about treating a serious, life threatening illness. Many people with depression commit suicide. For these individuals, taking a 'spin class' is not going to solve anything.I don't know that we force people to spin their legs to the requisite speed. somehow ethics restirctions preculudes that but not the administration of lsd...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 0:52:45
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin » linkadge, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 0:32:19
I mean...
What I am hearing (some) people say... Is that life (presumaby for smart people or something along those lines) is about...
How much money do you want to make?
YOu manouver yourself into a position whereby time spend working = $ and then you decide.... For how many hours do you want to work = how much money do you want to make.
And so now lets talk about an LSD trip that takes up... HOw many hours?
I think that is the way to view things...
Posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 1:08:20
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 0:52:45
I suppose I think...
That guided trips could, in fact, serve a useful purpose. For sure.
I remember studying the relationship between language, the world, and our conception of the world, in philosophy. That is to say the relationship between mind, language, and world.
Or... The relationship between the way the world is, our conception of the world (to do with our experience of the world) and what we can articulate about the world, or the way the world is.
Sort of three things... And trying to get clearer on the role of each. And how those things can come apart...
I think that hallucinagens... In fact, drugs, generally, help us get clearer on the role that the mind plays in the experience of reality.
I mean... Mind altering substances.
Not reality altering substances.
Mind altering substances.
Help us get clearer on the contribution of... The power of... The mind. IN the experience of... The interpretation of.. Reality.
My concern is that we blame the victim... Blame them for not putting their mind right...
When we force them into environments or circumstances..
Where anybody (in their right mind) would be profoundly... Unhappy.
That is to say... When leaders... Governments... Find people unhappy with the lot that the leaders or government has decided is right for them... Then the leaders say the people are 'mentally ill' and they proscribe medication. They proscribe involuntary incarceration...
Rather than paying a living wage etc.
Posted by Hugh on May 4, 2021, at 17:41:49
In reply to Psiloscybin, posted by sigismund on April 20, 2021, at 0:58:14
Posted by Lamdage22 on May 11, 2021, at 5:14:40
In reply to Re: Psiloscybin, posted by alexandra_k on April 25, 2021, at 1:08:20
Amen.
> My concern is that we blame the victim... Blame them for not putting their mind right...
>
> When we force them into environments or circumstances..
>
> Where anybody (in their right mind) would be profoundly... Unhappy.
>
> That is to say... When leaders... Governments... Find people unhappy with the lot that the leaders or government has decided is right for them... Then the leaders say the people are 'mentally ill' and they proscribe medication. They proscribe involuntary incarceration...
>
> Rather than paying a living wage etc.
This is the end of the thread.
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