![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Christ_empowered on April 23, 2021, at 8:08:38
my psych agreed to a reduction in aripiprazole dosage. started at 20, "doing well" at 10. the only adverse effects I've encountered seem related to a reduction in sedation, which is a welcome change, but understandably...took a bit of getting used to. point of all this is...to ask: is there -always- a certain degree of dysphoria, low grade depression, general...not so awesome feeling...associated with the neuroleptics?
the Orthomolecular psychiatrists, referencing some 50s big time psych whose name escapes me, often refer to 'the tranquilizer psychosis.' I often felt so clever, on aripiprazole, loaded to the gills on supplements, in avoiding 'the tranquilizer psychosis...'
and now, I don't feel so clever, and I'm honestly wondering: are these pills inherently...depressing?
Posted by undopaminergic on April 23, 2021, at 9:02:50
In reply to do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by Christ_empowered on April 23, 2021, at 8:08:38
>
> to ask: is there -always- a certain degree of dysphoria, low grade depression, general...not so awesome feeling...associated with the neuroleptics?
>Surprisingly, given that all these drugs are dopamine antagonists, they are usually not dysphoriant, except perhaps at doses where they also produce various (other) Parkinsonisms. As a matter of fact, some neuroleptics can even have antidepressant effects, especially at low doses; aripiprazole is one of them.
-undopaminergic
Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 23, 2021, at 13:06:04
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by undopaminergic on April 23, 2021, at 9:02:50
oly thing i've thought that can cause dysphoria is antihistimines. Zyrexa has antidepressant effects, but if you manic or in really heighed mood, yes it will pull you back down. Excess dopamine would be reduced.
robexetine is a NRI and i've read it causes extreme dysphoria in soome people. Exess norepinephrine and irrtibility.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2021, at 4:40:51
In reply to do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by Christ_empowered on April 23, 2021, at 8:08:38
Hm. When I first took Neuroleptics, I felt like garbage. But then again I was sky high from Nardil. It blunted that "sky high" feeling, which was probably good but still, I didn't like it. They are a two edged sword. On the one hand, they can cause depression, on the other hand they can help depression. They are kind of an "anti-drug" in the sense that they block dopamine.
Posted by linkadge on April 25, 2021, at 18:08:22
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by Lamdage22 on April 24, 2021, at 4:40:51
No. I personally don't mind a low dose of seroquel or zyprexa. I don't get any major dysphoria at low doses.
Dopamine isn't the magic pleasure chemical. Dopamine creates 'wanting' and motivation to achieve a reward, but it doesn't always produce reward in itself.
Keep in mind, when you block dopamine, the receptor then can become more responsive (in theory) to dopamine.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on April 26, 2021, at 0:09:27
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by linkadge on April 25, 2021, at 18:08:22
> No. I personally don't mind a low dose of seroquel or zyprexa. I don't get any major dysphoria at low doses.
>
> Dopamine isn't the magic pleasure chemical. Dopamine creates 'wanting' and motivation to achieve a reward, but it doesn't always produce reward in itself.
>I'd say the former is more important. Ie. the anticipation of pleasure is more important than the pleasure itself, because it produces motivation, thus counteracting apathy, which is worse than anhedonia.
I'd also say some dopamine receptors are very close to producing pleasure. Pramipexole was the only anti-anhedonic drug I tried; it's a D3>D2 receptor agonist.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on April 27, 2021, at 11:14:27
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by undopaminergic on April 26, 2021, at 0:09:27
>I'd say the former is more important. Ie. the >anticipation of pleasure is more important than >the pleasure itself, because it produces >motivation, thus counteracting apathy, which is >worse than anhedonia.
True. But there are certainly millions (if not billions) of highly motivated people on this planet, on a continual hunt for peace / pleasure that they never receive. While motivation is important, I also think it is possible to be satisfied without being hypermotivated.
Crudely speaking, hypermotivated people may have a relative dominance of dopamine to serotonin. These are the people who work their *ss*s off to achieve things that they only enjoy for a few sections. For society, this is the 'ideal' type of human, but on an individual level, I don't envy a life of constant treadmill running.
>I'd also say some dopamine receptors are very >close to producing pleasure. Pramipexole was >the only anti-anhedonic drug I tried; it's a >D3>D2 receptor agonist.
Very true. I don't fully understand it myself. However, for some individuals, blocking dopamine might help achieve a better monoamine balance.
Linkadge
Posted by undopaminergic on April 27, 2021, at 11:40:09
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by linkadge on April 27, 2021, at 11:14:27
> ... I also think it is possible to be satisfied without being hypermotivated.
>Oh, absolutely, it's almost the opposite. I once had an experience of complete satisfaction (and the only experience of being fully relaxed, maybe the only time in my life), in connection with taking codeine cough syrup and another one containing dextromethorpan and salbutamol (IIRC aka. albuterol). I had absolutely no cravings for anything else/more. I would not say it took motivation *away* exactly -- I could still *do* things, but without the discomfort of craving.
> Crudely speaking, hypermotivated people may have a relative dominance of dopamine to serotonin. These are the people who work their *ss*s off to achieve things that they only enjoy for a few sections. For society, this is the 'ideal' type of human, but on an individual level, I don't envy a life of constant treadmill running.
>Yeah, it's actually sad in a way.
> >I'd also say some dopamine receptors are very >close to producing pleasure. Pramipexole was >the only anti-anhedonic drug I tried; it's a >D3>D2 receptor agonist.
>
> Very true. I don't fully understand it myself. However, for some individuals, blocking dopamine might help achieve a better monoamine balance.
>Likewise with other monoaminergic interventions.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on April 27, 2021, at 12:43:12
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by undopaminergic on April 27, 2021, at 11:40:09
>Yeah, it's actually sad in a way.
Yeah. It's sad that either:
a) people don't even recognize it
b) people don't think its a problem (maybe it isn't)
c) people don't know how to fix it (if it can be fixed).Some people literally work themselves to death to achieve some useless trinkets. Really, it's normal only in the sense that these types of genes are the ones that survive evolution. Evolution doesn't care about happiness as much as it does survival.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart37 on April 27, 2021, at 19:33:48
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria? » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on April 27, 2021, at 12:43:12
zyprexa has antidepressant effects, it blocks dopamine and serotonin. But suprisingly does have AD effects. But it's sedating. It's kinda like jumping into a floater in a pool, and just coasting along slow and relaxed.
Posted by Lamdage22 on May 15, 2021, at 11:47:09
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by rjlockhart37 on April 27, 2021, at 19:33:48
Zyprexa makes me lazy. When I started it, all of a sudden it felt difficult to motivate myself to get a shower. It's ok now due to other factors.
Posted by Lamdage22 on May 23, 2021, at 2:18:14
In reply to Re: do neuroleptics always=dysphoria?, posted by Lamdage22 on May 15, 2021, at 11:47:09
But paranoia causes more dysphoria than Neuroleptics. You shouldn't take em if you don't need them.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.